How Old Is The Earth

[Job 33:6]

"Creation" does not require that the thing made be physical. God created our souls out of nothing, and then breathed that soul into the body He had made for Adam.

Great. So it is with Genesis. It's not talking about ex nihilo creation. Physical matter, appearing out of thin air. I'm glad that you realize that this word has alternative uses.

The ammonites, are a physical thing. But when God created the ammonites, it's not saying that they appeared out of thin air.

This is not meant to be hard.

It's not saying that Jacob appeared out of thin air, like the incarnation of Christ. Or that a sign post, appeared out of nothing.

When God created a blacksmith, it's not saying that God snapped his fingers, and a metallurgist just appeared out of empty space.

 

[Job 33:6]

Great. So it is with Genesis. It's not talking about ex nihilo creation. Physical matter, appearing out of thin air. I'm glad that you realize that this word has alternative uses.

The ammonites, are a physical thing. But when God created the ammonites, it's not saying that they appeared out of thin air.

Got it? This is not meant to be hard. It's pretty simple and straightforward.

It's not saying that Jacob appeared out of thin air, like the incarnation of Christ. Or that a sign post, appeared out of nothing.

When God created a blacksmith, it's not saying that God snapped his fingers, and a metallurgist just appeared out of empty space.

And so, when you read Genesis, you can't charge at it like an ex nihilo zealot, with the view that earth just appeared out of nothing, like a magic trick. That's not what bara means.

 

[Job 33:6]

"Creation" does not require that the thing made be physical. God created our souls out of nothing, and then breathed that soul into the body He had made for Adam.

Also, in many instances, bara, is referring to the creation of a physical object. Like Israel and Jerusalem, or Jacob, or the Ammonites, or a sign post etc. and when it is used for these things, it's not saying that God snapped his fingers, and that these physical objects just poofed into existence. It's referring to something else. Something more in line with appointment or election. Dedication etc. like creating a football team. It's not that the players of Israel are appearing out of nothing. But God is appointing them. Electing them. Choosing them, dedicating them. He is making them into something. Not ex nihilo. But in other ways. etc.

Ezekiel 21:30 ESV
[30] Return it to its sheath. In the place where you were created, in the land of your origin, I will judge you.

This verse isn't saying that the ammonites just appeared out of nothing.

This word, bara, in fact, it never actually refers to this idea that material or physical matter just poofed into existence out of nothing.

That's not what this word means. I can see you observing a more flexible approach now. Which is a good start. Recognizing that there is more going on here.

 

[Doug Brents]

Great. So it is with Genesis. It's not talking about ex nihilo creation. Physical matter, appearing out of thin air. I'm glad that you realize that this word has alternative uses.

That is not what I said at all. What I said is that God created the soul of Adam "ex nihilo" and breathed it into the body He fashioned out of the dirt He had already created "ex nihilo".

The ammonites, are a physical thing. But when God created the ammonites, it's not saying that they appeared out of thin air.

No, they did not appear out of nothing at that instant. But He had created EVERYTHING, and so He set things in motion that would cause them to show up at that moment. You are correct, not every passage that says that God created something means that He made them out of nothing at that exact moment. But the ability to make something out of nothing is uniquely and exclusively God's.

And so, when you read Genesis, you can't charge at it like an ex nihilo zealot, with the view that earth just appeared out of nothing, like a magic trick. That's not what bara means.

Not a magic trick, but yes, making something exist out of nothing is exactly what בוֹרֵ֧א (ḇō·w·rê) means, and it is exclusively and uniquely a power of God.

 

[Job 33:6]

That is not what I said at all. What I said is that God created the soul of Adam "ex nihilo" and breathed it into the body He fashioned out of the dirt He had already created "ex nihilo".

No, they did not appear out of nothing at that instant. But He had created EVERYTHING, and so He set things in motion that would cause them to show up at that moment.

I never denied that God created everything.

What I'm saying is that, bara, is not that kind of creation that you think it is. That's not what that word is saying, it's not saying that Jacob appeared out of nothing or that the ammonites appeared out of nothing or that a stop sign appeared out of nothing.

That's not what it's saying.

Not a magic trick, but yes, making something exist out of nothing is exactly what בוֹרֵ֧א (ḇō·w·rê) means, and it is exclusively and uniquely a power of God.

Sure. But again, it's not saying that, these objects appeared out of thin air.

And this is important, because in the book of Genesis when God creates the heavens and the Earth, it's not saying that God snapped his fingers and everything was just instantly there.

That's just not what the word means. Jacob, the blacksmith, the ammonites, the sign post etc.

The ammonites didn't appear out of thin air, Jerusalem didn't appear out of thin air. God bara'd these things. God created them.

But not in the way that you're trying to force the text to say that He did.

 

[Job 33:6]

I never denied that God created everything.

What I'm saying is that, bara, is not that kind of creation that you think it is. That's not what that word is saying, it's not saying that Jacob appeared out of nothing or that the ammonites appeared out of nothing or that a stop sign appeared out of nothing.

That's not what it's saying.


Sure. But again, it's not saying that, these objects appeared out of thin air.

And this is important, because in the book of Genesis when God creates the heavens and the Earth, it's not saying that God snapped his fingers and everything was just instantly there.

That's just not what the word means. Jacob, the blacksmith, the ammonites, the sign post etc.

The ammonites didn't appear out of thin air, Jerusalem didn't appear out of thin air. God bara'd these things. God created them.

But not in the way that you're trying to force the text to say that He did.

And to be clear. I'm not saying that God didn't ultimately create all physical matter.

What I'm saying is that, that's not what bara means (ex nihilo matter out of nothing), and that's not what Genesis is talking about.

In the same way, Jerusalem or Jacob, or the ammonites, or the blacksmith, or the stop sign,

I'm not saying the guy didn't create all physical matter, but these objects, when they are referred to, it's not saying that guy just made them instantaneously appear out of thin air.

That's not what bara means.

And when people read Genesis, and they read that God created the heavens and the Earth, they would be incorrect to assume that this verse is describing a physical planet appearing instantaneously out of thin air.

That's anachronistic. It's a misunderstanding of the context of Genesis.

 

[Job 33:6]

No, they did not appear out of nothing at that instant.

Great. Then don't wrongly assumed that to be the case, in Genesis. When God bara'd the heavens and the earth.

That's step 1.

And when you reach that point, we can then divert back to the question of the dependent or independent clause of Genesis 1:1-2.

 

[Job 33:6]

 

[Doug Brents]

What I'm saying is that, bara, is not that kind of creation that you think it is. That's not what that word is saying, it's not saying that Jacob appeared out of nothing or that the ammonites appeared out of nothing or that a stop sign appeared out of nothing.

That's not what it's saying.

According to you, maybe. But according to those who spoke directly with God, and the ancients that descended from them, that is exactly what the word means most of the time; not all the time, but most of the time.

Sure. But again, it's not saying that, these objects appeared out of thin air.

And this is important, because in the book of Genesis when God creates the heavens and the Earth, it's not saying that God snapped his fingers and everything was just instantly there.

That's just not what the word means. Jacob, the blacksmith, the ammonites, the sign post etc.

Have absolutely no bearing on God's making everything that is out of the nothing that existed before He made it.

And to be clear. I'm not saying that God didn't ultimately create all physical matter.

What I'm saying is that, that's not what bara means (ex nihilo matter out of nothing), and that's not what Genesis is talking about.

In the same way, Jerusalem or Jacob, or the ammonites, or the blacksmith, or the stop sign,

I'm not saying the guy didn't create all physical matter, but these objects, when they are referred to, it's not saying that guy just made them instantaneously appear out of thin air.

That's not what bara means.

And when people read Genesis, and they read that God created the heavens and the Earth, they would be incorrect to assume that this verse is describing a physical planet appearing instantaneously out of thin air.

That's anachronistic. It's a misunderstanding of the context of Genesis.

Who is "guy"? What "guy" are we talking about here? Some "guy" didn't create anything. Only God can create.
And yes, it is clear that God did make everything out of nothing, and that God said it and it happened (nothing into something). He said, "Let there light." and light appeared instantly from out of nowhere. Then He later consolidated that light into the Sun and Moon and stars which He set in space, making those balls of gas out of nothing and placing them where He wanted them and establishing the laws of nature that govern how they move. out of nothing.

And when the world ends, everything will go back to nothing, and be completely destroyed (uncreated) and none of it will be found again because there will be no place found for it.

 

[Job 33:6]

According to you, maybe. But according to those who spoke directly with God, and the ancients that descended from them, that is exactly what the word means most of the time; not all the time, but most of the time.

Um, no? Where do you get that impression?

Are you aware that ancient near eastern civilizations universally spoke in terms of ex materia creation, and that none described creation in terms of ex nihilo matter appearing out of nothing?

 

[Job 33:6]

Who is "guy"? What "guy" are we talking about here? Some "guy" didn't create anything. Only God can create.

Talk-to-text mistranslated "that God".

I'm not saying "that God didn't*"

 

[Job 33:6]

Then He later consolidated that light into the Sun and Moon and stars which He set in space, making those balls of gas out of nothing

Genesis doesn't say anything like that. Consolidation of light into the sun and moon?

Balls of gas? Lol. Um, no. Genesis doesn't say anything about balls of gas or gathering light into the or the moon. That's purely in your imagination.

I think that you're confusing Genesis with an astronomy textbook. You've been watching too many Nat Geo documentaries on the solar system.

 

[Job 33:6]

making those balls of gas out of nothing

Ok, well when you're ready to come to terms with the fact that bara does not mean "material appearing out of nothing", I'll be here.

But until then, all you're doing is denying all the clear examples of the use of bara to the contrary. The blacksmith, the ammonites, Jerusalem, Jacob, the stop sign etc.

All the best.

 

[Doug Brents]

Um, no? Where do you get that impression?

Are you aware that ancient near eastern civilizations universally spoke in terms of ex materia creation, and that none described creation in terms of ex nihilo matter appearing out of nothing?

Berean Strong's Lexicon
bara': Create, shape, form
Original Word: בָּרָא
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: bara'
Pronunciation: baw-raw'
Phonetic Spelling: (baw-raw')
Definition: Create, shape, form
Meaning: to create, to cut down, select, feed

Word Origin: A primitive root

Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: - G2936 (ktizo): To create, form, shape

- G2937 (ktisis): Creation, creature

Usage: The Hebrew verb "bara'" primarily means "to create" and is used in the Bible to denote the divine act of creation. It is a term that signifies the initiation of something new, often implying a creation ex nihilo (out of nothing), which is a unique attribute of God's creative power. Unlike other Hebrew words for making or forming, "bara'" is exclusively used in reference to God's creative acts, underscoring His sovereignty and omnipotence.

Cultural and Historical Background: In the ancient Near Eastern context, creation narratives were common, but the Hebrew Bible's account is distinct in its monotheistic perspective. The use of "bara'" in Genesis 1:1 sets the tone for the biblical understanding of God as the sole Creator of the universe, contrasting with polytheistic creation myths of surrounding cultures. This foundational concept shaped Israel's worldview, emphasizing God's ultimate authority and the intentionality behind creation.

Genesis doesn't say anything like that. Consolidation of light into the sun and moon?

Balls of gas? Lol. Um, no. Genesis doesn't say anything about balls of gas or gathering light into the or the moon. That's purely in your imagination.

I think that you're confusing Genesis with an astronomy textbook. You've been watching too many Nat Geo documentaries on the solar system.

God created light out of nothing at all (not even out of thin air, since air didn't even exist yet for all we know) on the first day, "Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light." Then on the fourth day He focused the light into the sun, moon, and stars ("Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and they shall serve as signs and for seasons, and for days and years; 15 and they shall serve as lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth; and it was so."). So that is what God tells us happened. Science observes that the start, of which the sun is one, are flaming balls of super dense plasma (ionized gas). So while Scripture doesn't give us details like that, we can put what we observe with what He says He did, and make a clearer picture of what went on.

Ok, well when you're ready to come to terms with the fact that bara does not mean "material appearing out of nothing", I'll be here.

But until then, all you're doing is denying all the clear examples of the use of bara to the contrary. The blacksmith, the ammonites, Jerusalem, Jacob, the stop sign etc.

All the best.

While those are good examples of that word not always referring to making something out of nothing in that exact instant, as is shown above, the ancients understood the word to mean a unique quality of God to form what is out of what is not, and that while sometimes He did form what was into new forms, because He had made it all out of nothing anyway, He can still be said to have made the blacksmith?? the Ammonites, Jerusalem, Jacob, or whatever out of nothing, because He made it all from nothing in the beginning, and made the rules that govern nature out of the nothingness that was before.

 

[trophy33]

Seriously? How many more meteorites would have struck Earth in 13 billion years than in 6,000? No, God has created natural laws that prevent Earth from being destroyed by "accident". Now, it may be a meteorite/asteroid/commit that destroys Earth in fire, but I don't think so because God says it will come as a surprise to everyone when the end comes.

You do not understand. There are so many meteorites craters on Earth that if the Earth was only 6,000 years old, the life would be wiped out many times during that short time.

Correct, Genesis is not a "scientific book". But there is a tremendous amount of truth found there that points to correctly understanding what we learn by "science".

Genesis is a part of the Mosaic Law. It served as a prelude to the Mosaic Covenant. The book of origins, from the cultural point of view of Jews. The ancestors of Jews being the main protagonists in the Genesis stories, of course.

It was theologically or culturally useful to Jews, but regarding the "how old is the earth" discussion, its not the right source for it.

 

[Job 33:6]

Berean Strong's Lexicon
bara': Create, shape, form
Original Word: בָּרָא
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: bara'
Pronunciation: baw-raw'
Phonetic Spelling: (baw-raw')
Definition: Create, shape, form
Meaning: to create, to cut down, select, feed

Word Origin: A primitive root

Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: - G2936 (ktizo): To create, form, shape- G2937 (ktisis): Creation, creature

Form, shape, cut down. Ok, got it.

Creature usage: The Hebrew verb "bara'" primarily means "to create" and is used in the Bible to denote the divine act of creation. It is a term that signifies the initiation of something new, often implying a creation ex nihilo (out of nothing), which is a unique attribute of God's creative power. Unlike other Hebrew words for making or forming, "bara'" is exclusively used in reference to God's creative acts, underscoring His sovereignty and omnipotence.

Ok and...let's think about this for a second. Who wrote strongs concordance? Well, James Strong.

Is James Strong a traditional Hebrew scholar?

No. James Strong lived in the 1800s. He is about as modern as it gets, aside from contemporary scholars of today.

Are the 1800s your idea of "tradition"? Over 1800 years removed from Christ? And an additional 1,000 or so years totalling 2,800 years later, after the authorship of Genesis?

That's your idea of traditional?

Cultural and Historical Background: In the ancient Near Eastern context, creation narratives were common, but the Hebrew Bible's account is distinct in its monotheistic perspective. The use of "bara'" in Genesis 1:1 sets the tone for the biblical understanding of God as the sole Creator of the universe, contrasting with polytheistic creation myths of surrounding cultures. This foundational concept shaped Israel's worldview, emphasizing God's ultimate authority and the intentionality behind creation.

Sure. But monotheism and polytheism is a different topic than ex nihilo and ex materia.

God created light out of nothing at all (not even out of thin air, since air didn't even exist yet for all we know) on the first day, "Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light." Then on the fourth day He focused the light into the sun, moon, and stars ("Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and they shall serve as signs and for seasons, and for days and years; 15 and they shall serve as lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth; and it was so."). So that is what God tells us happened. Science observes that the start, of which the sun is one, are flaming balls of super dense plasma (ionized gas). So while Scripture doesn't give us details like that, we can put what we observe with what He says He did, and make a clearer picture of what went on.

Ok, when you're ready to come to terms with the fact that Bara is not describing balls of gas appearing out of thin air, I'll be here. But otherwise, there's no point in continuing.

I've already given several examples, demonstrating that that isn't what bara means.

the ancients understood the word to mean a unique quality of God to form what is out of what is not

I'm sorry but James Strong is not an "ancient". I'm sorry if you think that he is.

, and that while sometimes He did form what was into new forms, because He had made it all out of nothing anyway, He can still be said to have made the blacksmith?? the Ammonites, Jerusalem, Jacob, or whatever out of nothing, because He made it all from nothing in the beginning, and made the rules that govern nature out of the nothingness that was before.

Those passages are not saying that God made the blacksmith de novo out of nothing, ex nihilo at that moment in time. Which is the point. And you'd be clearly mistaken to think so. When it says that God created the ammonites, it's not talking about the origins of time in Genesis. Or Jacob. Or the blacksmith. It's not saying that, 6,000 years ago, God created the atoms of the blacksmith, and then one day they were collected and became a blacksmith.

You seem to be grossly confused about what these passages are saying.

When God created the ammonites, it's not saying that in the beginning of time God created the atoms of the ammonites and that one day they gathered to form the ammonites. That is not what these passages are saying.

It's like saying, oh God created me. But when I say that, I'm actually saying that God created my atoms 6,000 years ago, ex nihilo. I'm not actually talking about God forming me in the womb ex materia.

That's just a poor understanding of scripture.

 

[Doug Brents]

You do not understand. There are so many meteorites craters on Earth that if the Earth was only 6,000 years old, the life would be wiped out many times during that short time.

You have it backwards. If the earth were 13 billion years old, many more meteorites would have hit Earth. If there are, say 6000 craters from meteorites on Earth, then one meteorite hit Earth each year. If that holds true, then there should be 13 billion craters on Earth.

Genesis is a part of the Mosaic Law. It served as a prelude to the Mosaic Covenant. The book of origins, from the cultural point of view of Jews. The ancestors of Jews being the main protagonists in the Genesis stories, of course.

It was theologically or culturally useful to Jews, but regarding the "how old is the earth" discussion, its not the right source for it.

It is the ONLY source for it. It is very careful to track that single family of protagonists, giving the year of birth of each son, generation by generation, from Adam to Jacob, and then we can link some of the relevant historical events to the Biblical events and identify the age of the Earth withing a few short years. Again, if you like, PM me your email address and I can send you the sheet where I chronicled my research. I included all the references to Scripture where I got the data that I put in the spreadsheet.

 

[Doug Brents]

there's no point in continuing.

With that, I will agree.

 

[Job 33:6]

Another reason we know that Genesis has nothing to do with the age of the Earth is that Genesis describes ancient near East cosmology:

 

[trophy33]

You have it backwards. If the earth were 13 billion years old, many more meteorites would have hit Earth. If there are, say 6000 craters from meteorites on Earth, then one meteorite hit Earth each year. If that holds true, then there should be 13 billion craters on Earth.

Nope. The number and the depths of craters fit to a billions of years old earth. Similarly also with the craters on the Moon.

It is the ONLY source for it. It is very careful to track that single family of protagonists, giving the year of birth of each son, generation by generation, from Adam to Jacob, and then we can link some of the relevant historical events to the Biblical events and identify the age of the Earth withing a few short years. Again, if you like, PM me your email address and I can send you the sheet where I chronicled my research. I included all the references to Scripture where I got the data that I put in the spreadsheet.

The book of Genesis is not created for any such research. Its a prelude to the Mosaic covenant. We do not live under that covenant. We are not under Genesis any more than we are under Leviticus or under Deuteronomium.