How Old Is The Earth

[Job 33:6]

I'm not a Hebrew scholar, but It's easy for anyone here to fact check this with an online Hebrew Intelinear Bible and Google Translate. The word in Isaiah 40:22 is "חוּג"

This is potentially translated as circle, class, ring, orb, sphere, tropic, horizon, boundary or party.

Isaiah 40

Hebrew->English Translation

Isaiah 40:22 NASB2020
[22] It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,Who stretches out the heavens like a curtainAnd spreads them out like a tent to live in.

Isaiah 40:22 NIV
[22] He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

Isaiah 40:22 CEB
[22] God inhabits the earth’s horizon— its inhabitants are like locusts— stretches out the skies like a curtain and spreads it out like a tent for dwelling.

Isaiah 40:22 NET
[22] He is the one who sits on the earth’s horizon; its inhabitants are like grasshoppers before him. He is the one who stretches out the sky like a thin curtain, and spreads it out like a pitched tent.

Isaiah 40:22 NRSV
[22] It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;

Isaiah 40:22 ESV
[22] It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in;

I'm not aware of any translation that translates that word as "sphere", that is a complete misunderstanding of the subject.

The verse is talking about the circular horizon of the face of the deep.

Proverbs 8:26-28 ESV
[26] before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world. [27] When he established the heavens, I was there; when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, [28] when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep,

It's not even talking about the shape of the earth itself. It's talking about the circle or the circuit of the earth. The horizon, the boundary between light and darkness.

That's why the verse says:
Job 26:10 ESV
[10] He has inscribed a circle on the face of the waters at the boundary between light and darkness.

It's talking about a flat horizon that is a circle. Like when you go to the beach and you look off into the flat horizon where the sun rises or sets. It is the flat circular disk that serves as the boundary between light and dark.

That's what that word means. That's why every Bible translation refers to it as a "circle" and not a "sphere".

@Doug Brents

 

[Job 33:6]

"Tohu" can mean wasteland, but it more correctly refers to nothingness, emptiness, void.

Wastelands are empty. They are nothing. There is nothing there. It is barren, it is empty.

That's why in Genesis 1:2 it says that the Earth is formless and empty. It's not saying that the Earth itself was empty space and nothing, it's saying that the as a physical object was barren.

That's what that word means.

This is not a NASA textbook. This is not talking about space travel and astronomy, Albert Einstein did not write Genesis.

The Bible is not a science textbook. And I'm going to keep saying this until people figure this out, the Bible is not a science textbook, take a deep breath and say it with me. " The Bible is not a science textbook".

 

[SuperCow]

Sphere is wrong anyway. Technically the earth is an oblate spheroid. Obviously any inspired writer of the Bible should have known to use that term.

 

[Doug Brents]

Hm, let's see, your favorite source:

The Bible, not any book authored by man, is my favorite source.

Bible > Strong's > Hebrew > 2329
◄ 2329. chug ►
Berean Strong's Lexicon
chug: Circle, circuit, compass
Original Word: חוּג
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: chug
Pronunciation: khoog
Phonetic Spelling: (khoog)
Definition: Circle, circuit, compass
Meaning: a circle

Word Origin: Derived from the root חוּג (chug), which means to encircle or encompass.

Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: The Greek equivalent often used in the Septuagint for "chug" is "γῦρος" (gyros), which also means circle or circuit.

Usage: The Hebrew word "chug" primarily denotes a circle or a circuit. It is used to describe the circular nature of the earth or the heavens, emphasizing the completeness and perfection of God's creation. The term can also imply the idea of a boundary or limit, as seen in its usage in the context of the earth's horizon or the heavens.

Nothing about a sphere here at all. In fact, this circle is described as being compass inscribed. It's even specific to "Earth's horizon" which of course is flat, where the sun sets. Compasses are drawing tools used for drawing circles:

As "Creation Ministries" says, "
The Hebrew word in question is khûg (חוּג) which is also found in Job 22:14 where, in many Bible versions, it is translated ‘vault’. For example, the New American Standard Bible reads, “Clouds are a hiding place for Him, so that He cannot see; and He walks on the vault of heaven.” Clearly ‘vault’ carries the sense of something three-dimensional and is given as the primary meaning of khûg in the well-known Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon.1 In modern Hebrew, a sphere is denoted by khûg, along with kaddur, galgal, and mazzal.2 In Arabic (another Semitic language), kura means ball and is the word used in the Van Dyck-Boustani Arabic Bible (1865) to translate khûg in Isaiah 40:22.

A case can also be made from modern European terms denoting sphericity. Philologists have discovered a number of Indo-European words that appear to be related to Semitic words, whether of shared origin or having been borrowed in the distant past.3 While there is no specific evidence confirming a link in the case of the Hebrew word khûg, it may be significant that, in Indo-European languages, there are similar-sounding words that definitely refer to a spherical object, examples being kugel (Middle High German), kula (Polish), kugla (Serbo-Croatian) and gugā (their Proto-Indo-European root).4,5,6

Various sixteenth century Latin Bibles indicate that medieval scholars understood khûg in Isaiah 40:22 to refer to the sphericity of the earth. For example, Santes Pagnino translated this sphaera, and Benedictus Arias Montanus and François Vatable globus. The seventeenth century Giovanni Diodati Bible also used globus and the eighteenth century Dutch Hebraist Campeius Vitringa used orbis.7 More recently, the Spanish Jerusalem Bible used ‘orb’ and the Italian Riveduta Bible ‘globo’.

Conclusion

While most modern Bible versions translate khûg as ‘circle’, a good case can be made that ‘sphere’ was the sense intended by the original Hebrew. Historically, scholars have often taken this view, preferring the Latin words sphaera, globus and orbis. The recent preference for ‘circle’ may have arisen from the belief that people living in Isaiah’s time were too primitive to realise the true nature of the earth. This would seem unlikely, however, as Job 26:7, probably written several centuries before, states that God “hangs the earth on nothing,” indicating that the ancient Hebrews had quite a sophisticated understanding of cosmology.

Everyone is in agreement that khûg carries the sense of roundness, and common usage makes clear that this can refer to either a two or three dimensional geometry. Hence, it cannot be argued that Isaiah 40:22 clearly teaches the earth to be a disc. Moreover, even if khûg does refer to a circle here, this doesn’t necessarily indicate flatness as a globe appears as a circle from whatever direction it is viewed."

Again, the Bible is jam packed with countless verses about earth resting on pillars, not moving, having a hard sky, being above sheol, the earth having ends etc etc

All of this has already been addressed. Figurative language is used all the time, even today, but we don't take the figure to be literal. There is no "end" to the Earth, there is no post, pillar, mount, or foundation to the Earth other than God's power, etc.

 

[Doug Brents]

Wastelands are empty. They are nothing. There is nothing there. It is barren, it is empty.

A wasteland may be "empty", but there is not "nothing" there. There is sand, rock, shrubs, insects, heat, etc. But the Earth is not hung in a wasteland where there is stuff. It is hung in and on nothingness.

This is not a NASA textbook. This is not talking about space travel and astronomy, Albert Einstein did not write Genesis.

The Bible is not a science textbook. And I'm going to keep saying this until people figure this out, the Bible is not a science textbook, take a deep breath and say it with me. " The Bible is not a science textbook".

You are correct, the Bible is not a science textbook. But there is not a human who has ever lived who is more knowledgeable or wise, or who was present when these things occurred than the author of the Book of Genesis (God). What He wrote can be trust ed to be accurate, and to tell us what we need to know to trust in Him. Knowing what we know (or think we know ) today about the world around us, we can see the truth of what exists written in Scripture. God has laid out the age of the Earth very clearly by telling us that He created everything that exists in six days, and then in the genealogy in which He lays out the age of each father when his son was born all the way down to Jacob who He places at a certain age before Pharaoh (which we can place in the current historical timeline through archaeology), and then down to Moses who can also be placed in at a certain Pharaoh, thus linking the chronology and dating the Earth at around 5927 years old.

 

[trophy33]

A wasteland may be "empty", but there is not "nothing" there. There is sand, rock, shrubs, insects, heat, etc. But the Earth is not hung in a wasteland where there is stuff. It is hung in and on nothingness.

Earth is not hung, it travels through space. Genesis writers did not have this knowledge.

 

[trophy33]

You are correct, the Bible is not a science textbook. But there is not a human who has ever lived who is more knowledgeable or wise, or who was present when these things occurred than the author of the Book of Genesis (God).

God is not the author of the book of Genesis. Babylonian Jews are.

You can clearly see that the text is not written in the first person - "I created..." but in the third person - "God created". The author was not God, but men.

 

[Doug Brents]

Earth is not hung, it travels through space. Genesis writers did not have this knowledge.

Does Earth really move? Or does the entire Universe revolve around the Earth? We have no way of knowing, because there is no "fixed" point in "space" for us to judge. The only thing we can determine is relative movement, and from our vantage point, everything revolves around the Earth. God says He hung the Earth on nothing, and that He placed the sun and the moon and the stars in the expanse of the heavens. The Genesis writers did not have to have this knowledge, God did, and He gave that knowledge to them. That is one of the proofs that the Word of God was inspired by God. Man (Moses especially, since he was born 2379 years after Creation) did not have a lot of the knowledge that is in Scripture, but God did.

 

[Doug Brents]

God is not the author of the book of Genesis. Babylonian Jews are.

You can clearly see that the text is not written in the first person - "I created..." but in the third person - "God created". The author was not God, but men.

Genesis is Scripture, and Timothy says that all Scripture is God breathed. Literally God placed the knowledge into the minds of the people He wanted to write His Word, and they wrote what He authored. Yes, much of the Scripture is written from the perspective of the writer, not from God's perspective, but that doesn't mean that the men who put pen to paper were the authors. If 40 men over a period of over 2500 years were to, on their own, write something like the Bible, it would be so full of holes, errors, contradictions and such that it would be meaningless. Yet there is not a single error, contradiction or hole in the Bible.

 

[Job 33:6]

Various sixteenth century Latin Bibles indicate that medieval scholars understood khûg in Isaiah 40:22 to refer to the sphericity of the earth. For example, Santes Pagnino translated this sphaera, and Benedictus Arias Montanus and François Vatable globus. The seventeenth century Giovanni Diodati Bible also used globus and the eighteenth century Dutch Hebraist Campeius Vitringa used orbis.7 More recently, the Spanish Jerusalem Bible used ‘orb’ and the Italian Riveduta Bible ‘globo’.

Genesis wasn't written in the 16th century. You insist on anachronism, time and time and time again. This is nothing more than a logical fallacy.

Again. The Bible has countless verses about the earth resting on pillars with a solid raqia, resting atop sheol. It describes ancient Israelite cosmology through and through.

But if you want to hang on dearly to a single verse, that doesn't even use the word "sphere" but rather 100% of Bible translations refer to it as a compass inscribed flat circle...

Then it's your own decision to reject the Bible. That's the only way to put it. If 100% of translations say circle, that is compass inscribed on the "face" of the deep which is also flat. In the book of Job, it is even described as the horizon or boundary between light and dark. Just as we see the sun set below the flat horizon each night.

What else am I to say about this, other than that it is a denial of scripture? That you would insist that it's actually talking about a sphere? Though no translation anywhere ever says such a thing?

But if that is your choice, then so be it.

 

[Job 33:6]

Isaiah 40:22 NET
[22] He is the one who sits on the earth’s horizon; its inhabitants are like grasshoppers before him. He is the one who stretches out the sky like a thin curtain, and spreads it out like a pitched tent.

I mean, look at the rest of this verse. It goes even further, spreads out the sky like a pitched tent.

What tent has anyone ever used, that has sat on anything but flat ground?

Job 38:13-14 NET
[13] that it might seize the corners of the earth, and shake the wicked out of it? [14] The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features are dyed like a garment.

The earth takes shape like clay under a seal. That, like a flat garment, one might grab its edges and shake the wicked out of it.

Daniel 4:11 ESV
[11] The tree grew and became strong, and its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the end of the whole earth.

and the windows of the heavens were opened.
Genesis 7:11

the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained,
Genesis 8:2

The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea And pours them out on the face of the earth, The Lord is His name.
Amos‬ ‭9:6‬ ‭NASB

and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exodus 24:10

Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.’
Job 22:14

Job 37:18 ESV
[18] Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a cast metal mirror?

‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭1:5‬ ‭
The sun rises, and the sun goes down; to its place it hurries, and there it rises again.

Yet in all the world their line goes out, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has pitched a tent for the sun,
Psalms 19:4

you set the beams of your chambers on the waters, you make the clouds your chariot, you ride on the wings of the wind,
Psalms 104:3

He causes the clouds to arise from the end of the earth, makes lightning bolts accompany the rain, and brings the wind out of his storehouses.
Psalms 135:7

To him who spread out the earth above the waters, for his loyal love endures forever.
Psalms 136:6

Praise him, highest heavens, and waters above the heavens. Let them praise the name of Yahweh, because he commanded and they were created. And he put them in place *forever and ever*, by a decree he gave that will not pass away.
Psalms 148:4‭-‬6

Over the heads of the angels there was something like a dome, shining like crystal, spread out above their heads.
Ezekiel 1:22

He made strong the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
Proverbs 8:28-‬29

“Where were you at my laying the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you possess understanding. Who determined its measurement? Yes, you do know. Or who stretched the measuring line upon it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:4‭-‬6

The earth and all its inhabitants are shaking; I steady its columns. Selah
Psalms 75:3

For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he hath set the world upon them.
1 Samuel 2:8

The Bible doesn't say anything about the age of the earth, because the Bible isn't a science textbook.

 

[Job 33:6]

God says He hung the Earth on nothing, and that He placed the sun and the moon and the stars in the expanse of the heavens. The Genesis writers did not have to have this knowledge, God did, and He gave that knowledge to them.

Again, tohu is not empty space.

In Genesis, the earth was tohu. That does not mean that the earth itself was empty space. Rather it means that the earth was empty in the sense of barrenness. Hence why God filled it with its host.

Genesis 2:1 ESV
[1] Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

This same terminology is used in Jeremiah in a similar manner. Tohu does not mean empty space. Rather it means formless nothingness in the sense of a wasteland. Like a desert or barrent and empty ocean. There is nothing in the desert. It is void. As in, void of life. Void of meaning and purpose. Tohu is not empty space as if written by NASA. Tohu is emptiness like this:

Other examples of tohu include:
Deuteronomy 32:10 ESV
[10] “He found him in a desert land, and in the howling waste[tohu] of the wilderness; he encircled him, he cared for him, he kept him as the apple of his eye.

See how tohu is used in Deuteronomy? It is emptiness. It is void. But it does not mean empty space in the sense of NASA or general relativity.

Job 12:24 ESV
[24] He takes away understanding from the chiefs of the people of the earth and makes them wander in a trackless waste[tohu].

Again, here is another example. The chiefs wander in [tohu] similar to Nebuchadnezzar.

Isaiah 34:11 ESV
[11] But the hawk and the porcupine shall possess it, the owl and the raven shall dwell in it. He shall stretch the line of confusion[tohu] over it, and the plumb line of emptiness [bohu].

Here Isaiah uses tohu and bohu. Formlessness, nothingness, emptiness, meaninglessness etc. but it's talking about a purposeless or empty land. There is nothing there. Just like the Earth in Genesis 1:2 when it was without form and empty.

Jeremiah 4:23-27 ESV
[23] I looked on the earth, and behold, it was without form and void; and to the heavens, and they had no light. [24] I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, and all the hills moved to and fro. [25] I looked, and behold, there was no man, and all the birds of the air had fled. [26] I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a desert, and all its cities were laid in ruins before the Lord, before his fierce anger. [27] For thus says the Lord, “The whole land shall be a desolation; yet I will not make a full end.

Here again, look at what Jeremiah says. The earth was without form and void. And God says right after "the whole land shall be a desolation".

Here again, tohu wa bohu, is not referring to empty space as if written by Albert Einstein or Stephen Hawking. It means emptiness as in, a barren wasteland like a desert.

So with that said, when the passage says that the earth was hung on tohu. What it's referring to is the nothingness of the futile or meaningless waters. The formless and empty tohu.

Here is the broader passage in context:

Job 26:5-7, 10-12 ESV
[5] The dead tremble under the waters and their inhabitants. [6] Sheol is naked before God, and Abaddon has no covering. [7] He stretches out the north over the void and hangs the earth on nothing.
[10] He has inscribed a circle on the face of the waters at the boundary between light and darkness. [11] The pillars of heaven tremble and are astounded at his rebuke. [12] By his power he stilled the sea; by his understanding he shattered Rahab.

Read it closely.
Verse 6: "The dead tremble under the waters".

This is speaking of the watery underworld of sheol.

Verse 7: He stretches out tsaphon, or the North, over tohu. The heavens are stretched out over tohu [barren nothingness like a meaningless desert or barren and empty sea].

The Lord sits enthroned over the flood; the Lord sits enthroned as king forever.
Psalms 29:10

you set the beams of your chambers on the waters, you make the clouds your chariot, you ride on the wings of the wind,
Psalms 104:3

Here are similar verses in the psalms, where heaven is above the meaningless or empty waters.

Verse 7 continued: "he hangs the earth on nothing". Meaning, the earth hangs on the formless waters.

He has described a circle on the face of the water between light and darkness. “The pillars of heaven tremble, and they are astounded at his rebuke.
Job 26:10‭-‬11

To him who spread out the earth above the waters, for his loyal love endures forever.
Psalms 136:6

Where were you at my laying the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you possess understanding. Who determined its measurement? Yes, you do know. Or who stretched the measuring line upon it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:4‭-‬6

Thats why Job says "on what were it's based sunk?"

Sunk as in, in water.

Then the passage repeats. He has inscribed a circle on the face of the waters. Again, we've already covered this. A circle is a circle. The horizon, the boundary between light and dark. He inscribed a circle on the flat face of the waters. This is the circumference of the firmament.

Then the passage mentions the pillars of heaven, those in which the firmament are established upon, that extend into the water.

By his power, He stilled the sea. That is, the empty waters. The formless and meaningless waters.

 

[Doug Brents]

Genesis wasn't written in the 16th century. You insist on anachronism, time and time and time again. This is nothing more than a logical fallacy.

Usually, the closer you are to the authorship of an article, the more accurate the understanding of the language, usage, and definitions used in the writing. The fact that today almost all translation agree on the usage meaning "circle" does not alter the fact that there were many authorities 500 years ago who agreed the usage was "globe". You want to think that we are so much smarter and more accurate today than we were 500, 1000, 2500 years ago, but we have lost much in that time, and are just now catching up to where we once were.

Again. The Bible has countless verses about the earth resting on pillars with a solid raqia, resting atop sheol. It describes ancient Israelite cosmology through and through.

Again, figurative language is not to be taken literally.

 

[Doug Brents]

Again, tohu is not empty space.

In Genesis, the earth was tohu. That does not mean that the earth itself was empty space. Rather it means that the earth was empty in the sense of barrenness. Hence why God filled it with its host.

Genesis 2:1 ESV
[1] Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

This same terminology is used in Jeremiah in a similar manner. Tohu does not mean empty space. Rather it means formless nothingness in the sense of a wasteland. Like a desert or barrent and empty ocean. There is nothing in the desert. It is void. As in, void of life. Void of meaning and purpose.

A desert is not a void. A desert has sand, rocks, bushes, trees, lizards, scorpions, ants, beetles, flies, tubers, and many, many other things. It is not void of life, it is not void of material. It may be void of much that is useful to modern human existence, but it is not empty. Just look at the image you posted. There is a tree, a bush, several shrubs, a tuft of grass or something, and (while they may not be visible in the picture) there are certainly numerous insects, snakes, and lizards in this environment.

Tohu is not empty space as if written by NASA. Tohu is emptiness like this:View attachment 357203

Then the passage mentions the pillars of heaven, those in which the firmament are established upon, that extend into the water.

By his power, He stilled the sea. That is, the empty waters. The formless and meaningless waters.

View attachment 357205

This is comical. You, or your source, has implied on the cosmology of the ancients their depiction of spiritual matters along side their depiction of physical matters. Sheol, Heaven (where God resides), the dragon, etc. are all spiritual in nature and are not anywhere a part of the ancient's cosmology. Yes, they are talked about as being above or below, but that does not place them physically above or below us. They are not physically present to have a physical relationship to us, one way or the other. God is the foundation of the Earth. Hell (Sheol) is "beneath" us, as if it were a prison or torture chamber. And Heaven is "above" us; greater, more magnificent. But they are not anywhere in our physical universe, so they are not anywhere represented in the actual cosmology of the ancients.

 

[Job 33:6]

A desert is not a void. A desert has sand, rocks, bushes, trees, lizards, scorpions, ants, beetles, flies, tubers, and many, many other things. It is not void of life, it is not void of material. It may be void of much that is useful to modern human existence, but it is not empty. Just look at the image you posted. There is a tree, a bush, several shrubs, a tuft of grass or something, and (while they may not be visible in the picture) there are certainly numerous insects, snakes, and lizards in this environment.

This is comical. You, or your source, has implied on the cosmology of the ancients their depiction of spiritual matters along side their depiction of physical matters. Sheol, Heaven (where God resides), the dragon, etc. are all spiritual in nature and are not anywhere a part of the ancient's cosmology. Yes, they are talked about as being above or below, but that does not place them physically above or below us. They are not physically present to have a physical relationship to us, one way or the other. God is the foundation of the Earth. Hell (Sheol) is "beneath" us, as if it were a prison or torture chamber. And Heaven is "above" us; greater, more magnificent. But they are not anywhere in our physical universe, so they are not anywhere represented in the actual cosmology of the ancients.

The earth was not "a void" rather the earth itself was void. Just as a desert is void, the desert itself is not a void.

"It may be void of much that is useful to modern human existence"

That's the point. This is about purpose and meaning. It's not about whether or not there is a dead plant in the sand.

When Jeremiah describes the land as being tohu wa bohu, he wasn't saying that there were no sand or gravel around.

But that's how you're approaching the word. You're speaking as if "void" means something akin to Einsteins general relativity of open space.

And that's just plainly wrong and is a misunderstanding of the terminology.

 

[Job 33:6]

A desert is not a void. A desert has sand, rocks, bushes, trees, lizards, scorpions, ants, beetles, flies, tubers, and many, many other things. It is not void of life, it is not void of material. It may be void of much that is useful to modern human existence, but it is not empty. Just look at the image you posted. There is a tree, a bush, several shrubs, a tuft of grass or something, and (while they may not be visible in the picture) there are certainly numerous insects, snakes, and lizards in this environment.

This is comical. You, or your source, has implied on the cosmology of the ancients their depiction of spiritual matters along side their depiction of physical matters. Sheol, Heaven (where God resides), the dragon, etc. are all spiritual in nature and are not anywhere a part of the ancient's cosmology. Yes, they are talked about as being above or below, but that does not place them physically above or below us. They are not physically present to have a physical relationship to us, one way or the other. God is the foundation of the Earth. Hell (Sheol) is "beneath" us, as if it were a prison or torture chamber. And Heaven is "above" us; greater, more magnificent. But they are not anywhere in our physical universe, so they are not anywhere represented in the actual cosmology of the ancients.

????

In the old testament, heaven is a physical place.

Daniel 8:10 ESV
[10] It grew great, even to the host of heaven. And some of the host and some of the stars it threw down to the ground and trampled on them.

Job 38:7 ESV
[7] when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Here are a couple simple examples..the stars are angels.

Or,

Ezekiel 28:13-14 ESV
[13] You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. [14] You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.

Eden, the mountain of God.

Mount Tsaphon, in the old testament, is the meeting place of the Elohim. Or Mt. Sanai etc.

Where does Moses go to meet God to receive the commandments? He walks up a mountain.

In ancient times, the heavens were not in another supernatural realm. Rather they were "above". As in, in the sky. In modern times, we distinguish these things clearly. But in the old testament, they are not separated. Elohim lived among us, but particularly "above" and throughout the old testament, this is described as a physical place that perhaps, if you had an airplane, you could get to. But of course people didn't know what airplanes were back then, so that wasn't an option.

Genesis 1:8 ESV
[8] And God called the expanse Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.

Hence why the expanse is referred to as heaven, where the stars are set.

 

[Job 33:6]

Usually, the closer you are to the authorship of an article, the more accurate the understanding of the language, usage, and definitions used in the writing. The fact that today almost all translation agree on the usage meaning "circle" does not alter the fact that there were many authorities 500 years ago who agreed the usage was "globe". You want to think that we are so much smarter and more accurate today than we were 500, 1000, 2500 years ago, but we have lost much in that time, and are just now catching up to where we once were.

500 years ago is nothing. We have many sources on cosmology that date back to the ancient near east, 2,500 years ago and more.

Again, figurative language is not to be taken literally.

By you. Did the Catholic Church take geocentric verses figuratively when they put Galileo on house arrest? No.

And here's the thing, figurative or not, these passages still describe a flat earth.

Daniel 4:11 ESV
[11] The tree grew and became strong, and its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the end of the whole earth.

Anyone can look at this and say "oh yeah, that's figurative".

Ok, but what does it describe? An earth that is spherical or flat?

Or, take these verses:

“Where were you at my laying the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you possess understanding. Who determined its measurement? Yes, you do know. Or who stretched the measuring line upon it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:4‭-‬6

The earth and all its inhabitants are shaking; I steady its columns. Selah
Psalms 75:3

For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he hath set the world upon them.
1 Samuel 2:8

Anyone could say "oh those are figurative".

Ok, but what do they describe? An earth orbiting the sun in space? No. They describe the earth, resting on pillars.

Thats ancient Israelite cosmology. In case you didn't know.

 

[Doug Brents]

The earth was not "a void" rather the earth itself was void. Just as a desert is void, the desert itself is not a void.

"It may be void of much that is useful to modern human existence"

That's the point. This is about purpose and meaning. It's not about whether or not there is a dead plant in the sand.

It is not talking about what the Earth was or is. It is talking about what was around the Earth when God hung the Earth. The Earth is hung in vacuum, there is nothing around the Earth, and that is what God was telling Job.

When Jeremiah describes the land as being tohu wa bohu, he wasn't saying that there were no sand or gravel around.

But that's how you're approaching the word. You're speaking as if "void" means something akin to Einsteins general relativity of open space.

And that's just plainly wrong and is a misunderstanding of the terminology.

We are not discussing Jeremiah's usage of the word. As with many words, the meaning can have subtle differences based upon the context.

????

In the old testament, heaven is a physical place.

Daniel 8:10 ESV
[10] It grew great, even to the host of heaven. And some of the host and some of the stars it threw down to the ground and trampled on them.

Job 38:7 ESV
[7] when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

LOL, there were three different "heaven"s that the ancients described. The first was the Earth's atmosphere. The second was "space", where the sun, moon, and stars are. And the third heaven is the Heaven where God resides. This is why Paul talked about being caught up to the third Heaven in 2 Cor 12:2. So the first and second heavens are physical places, but Heaven where God lives is not.

500 years ago is nothing. We have many sources on cosmology that date back to the ancient near east, 2,500 years ago and more.

500 years is quite significant when considering that the Earth is only 5927 years old; it is 17% of the earth's age. 2500 is certainly more significant (at 42% of the earths age), but as has been said, the cosmology of ancient Israel was significantly different from the cosmology of the nations around them, because they had God's revealed knowledge about how He made everything.

By you. Did the Catholic Church take geocentric verses figuratively when they put Galileo on house arrest? No.

The catholic cult is a group of men following their own unrighteous desire for power. What they did in many cases was pure evil.

And here's the thing, figurative or not, these passages still describe a flat earth.

Daniel 4:11 ESV
[11] The tree grew and became strong, and its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the end of the whole earth.

Anyone can look at this and say "oh yeah, that's figurative".

Ok, but what does it describe? An earth that is spherical or flat?

Neither. Because that verse is figurative. This was a dream, and in dreams natural laws and reality do not always hold firm.

Or, take these verses:

“Where were you at my laying the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you possess understanding. Who determined its measurement? Yes, you do know. Or who stretched the measuring line upon it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:4‭-‬6

The earth and all its inhabitants are shaking; I steady its columns. Selah
Psalms 75:3

For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he hath set the world upon them.
1 Samuel 2:8

Anyone could say "oh those are figurative".

Ok, but what do they describe? An earth orbiting the sun in space? No. They describe the earth, resting on pillars.

Thats ancient Israelite cosmology. In case you didn't know.

No, that is God displaying His might and His authority. God was there when the world was made, and He measured it, He stretched a measuring line upon it, He set the foundation beneath the seas and is the cornerstone of the world. Are there earthquakes? Yes, and God is there to stabilize the Earth so it does not shake apart and disappear. God built the Earth, and set it up upon His own power.

 

[Job 33:6]

It is not talking about what the Earth was or is. It is talking about what was around the Earth when God hung the Earth. The Earth is hung in vacuum, there is nothing around the Earth, and that is what God was telling Job.

I feel like you are missing the point here. In several books of the Bible, be at Jeremiah or being in Genesis or elsewhere, these terms are used to describe material objects. They are not used to describe nothing.

We are not discussing Jeremiah's usage of the word. As with many words, the meaning can have subtle differences based upon the context.

We are discussing how the word is used in the Bible to understand the meaning of that word. When the word is used, it is used to describe material things. And Jeremiah and Genesis are good examples of that.

Neither. Because that verse is figurative. This was a dream, and in dreams natural laws and reality do not always hold firm.

Just because something is figurative, doesn't mean that it doesn't say what it says.

If the passage describes Earth resting on pillars, then it is what it is.

No, that is God displaying His might and His authority. God was there when the world was made, and He measured it, He stretched a measuring line upon it, He set the foundation beneath the seas and is the cornerstone of the world. Are there earthquakes? Yes, and God is there to stabilize the Earth so it does not shake apart and disappear. God built the Earth, and set it up upon His own power.

The Earth, as a whole, itself is set over the waters, not a localized land that has earthquakes.

 

[Job 33:6]

This is comical. You, or your source, has implied on the cosmology of the ancients their depiction of spiritual matters along side their depiction of physical matters. Sheol, Heaven (where God resides), the dragon, etc. are all spiritual in nature and are not anywhere a part of the ancient's cosmology. Yes, they are talked about as being above or below, but that does not place them physically above or below us. They are not physically present to have a physical relationship to us, one way or the other. God is the foundation of the Earth. Hell (Sheol) is "beneath" us, as if it were a prison or torture chamber. And Heaven is "above" us; greater, more magnificent. But they are not anywhere in our physical universe, so they are not anywhere represented in the actual cosmology of the ancients.

And again, these are physically real things in the Bible, they aren't purely supernatural. I'll give another example here.

Numbers 16:30 ESV
[30] But if the Lord creates something new, and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into Sheol, then you shall know that these men have despised the Lord.”

There are many passages in the Bible about the underworld, but look at the way this is written, the ground opens up and they fall down into it.

The Old Testament doesn't separate the natural from the supernatural the way we do today. Similar to how the stars are identified as the heavenly host, the underworld is also here.

And there are lots of passages like this where people go down to sheol. And sometimes they come back up too, like Samuel.

I gave an example of Moses climbing Mount Sinai to receive the tablets. He did not travel to another realm to meet God, he just went up a mountain, and that's where God was.

In the book of Ezekiel, Eden is described as a holy mountain.

Mount zaphon. Another place in the Bible, it's just the place where heavenly beings are.

You mentioned the dragon, Leviathan, psalm 104 describes it in the sea amidst ships. It's not in a supernatural realm, it is here on Earth.

Or the tree in Daniel 4. The top of the tree stretches to the heavens, and its trunk is in the ground.

Then all his sons and all his daughters got up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. And he said, “Surely I will go down to Sheol in mourning for my son.” So his father wept for him.
Genesis 37:35 NASB2020

Yet He commanded the clouds above And opened the doors of heaven;
Psalms 78:23 NASB

The Old Testament describes this ancient cosmology, and we can call certain aspects of it poetic, but it still describes what it describes.

Even if you want to call these passages about the underworld poetic, they still very clearly describe a place below our feet where people go. This is a common concept of ancient cosmology.

Or, here is another one:
The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea And pours them out on the face of the earth, The Lord is His name.
Amos‬ ‭9:6‬ ‭NASB

Gods upper chambers are not in some supernatural realm. They are over the earth.

Or here:
To him who spread out the earth above the waters, for his loyal love endures forever.
Psalms 136:6

The entire earth, is above the waters. It's not talking about a single piece of land in the ocean. It's saying that earth, as a whole, is on water.

Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.’
Job 22:14

The place where God dwells and walks around. It's in the clouds.

Etc etc.

In the old testament, heaven is literally, up above. And the underworld, sheol, is literally below our feet.

And this is just standard ancient Israelite cosmology.