How Old Is The Earth

[Job 33:6]

God did not create Jerusalem (please show me the verse where you think it says He did).

Isaiah 65:18 ESV
[18] But be glad and rejoice forever in that which I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem to be a joy, and her people to be a gladness.

Just because you don't like what the Bible says, does not give you the right to deny it.

 

[Doug Brents]

We are capable of creating things. I created a spreadsheet in Excel today.

Again, that is a misuse of that word. To create is to make something from nothing. You rearranged already existing images on a screen, and saved it by rearranging the electrons on a disk, but you didn't create anything.

Sure I did, I created a recipe and a football team. Again, just because you don't like how I'm using the word, doesn't mean that my use of the word is grammatically or typographically incorrect. What I am saying is correct and true.

What you are saying and what you mean are not the same thing.

God did create Jerusalem. That's what the Bible says. How dare you deny scripture.

The verse you cited says that God is the creator of Israel. God is the Creator of everything. But man is not the creator of anything.

No, God created mankind on day 6. Now you're acting like mankind was never created in Genesis chapter 1. As if when God created a living soul, and Adams body was mysteriously already there.

Scripture says that God made man's body from the dust He had already created. And then He created from nothing the soul that He put into the body He had formed. God did indeed create man, but He did it in several separate processes.

No. The psalmist isn't asking for anything material here. He's not asking for heart surgery.

Yes, he is asking God to create a new, living heart/soul/spirit to replace the dead heart/soul/spirit that died due to sin. Not a physical heart as if God needed to do heart surgery, but the making of a new living spirit to replace the old dead spirit.

The North and South aren't physical objects. Nothing material is coming out of nothing.

There is a physical something that makes the North north and the South south. God created that.

Apparently not because you've just skipped all the other examples I've given.

They were repeats of the same explanation already given. God creates, man cannot.

Amos 4:13, God created wind.
Wind does not appear out of thin air.

Actually, that is exactly what wind is, lol.

I know, people usually get their feelings hurt when they realize that the Bible isn't talking about the Big Bang. But that's just how it is.

You are correct, the Bible does not talk about any "big bang". It talks about God making everything there is out of nothing at all, and then forming it the way He wanted it, and hanging the stars in space where He wanted them, and making the laws of nature the way He wanted them, and making everything work properly. The first is creation (making everything out of nothing) and only God can do that. Mankind can only do the second part, reforming what is already there into new shapes.

 

[Doug Brents]

Isaiah 65:18 ESV
[18] But be glad and rejoice forever in that which I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem to be a joy, and her people to be a gladness.

Just because you don't like what the Bible says, does not give you the right to deny it.

I stand corrected, the verse does say that God created Jerusalem. And it uses the Hebrew word "בוֹרֵ֧א (ḇō·w·rê)" which means:

Usage: The Hebrew verb "bara'" primarily means "to create" and is used in the Bible to denote the divine act of creation. It is a term that signifies the initiation of something new, often implying a creation ex nihilo (out of nothing), which is a unique attribute of God's creative power. Unlike other Hebrew words for making or forming, "bara'" is exclusively used in reference to God's creative acts, underscoring His sovereignty and omnipotence.

 

[Job 33:6]

Again, that is a misuse of that word. To create is to make something from nothing. You rearranged already existing images on a screen, and saved it by rearranging the electrons on a disk, but you didn't create anything.

What you are saying and what you mean are not the same thing.

The verse you cited says that God is the creator of Israel. God is the Creator of everything. But man is not the creator of anything.

Scripture says that God made man's body from the dust He had already created. And then He created from nothing the soul that He put into the body He had formed. God did indeed create man, but He did it in several separate processes.

Yes, he is asking God to create a new, living heart/soul/spirit to replace the dead heart/soul/spirit that died due to sin. Not a physical heart as if God needed to do heart surgery, but the making of a new living spirit to replace the old dead spirit.

There is a physical something that makes the North north and the South south. God created that.

They were repeats of the same explanation already given. God creates, man cannot.

Actually, that is exactly what wind is, lol.

You are correct, the Bible does not talk about any "big bang". It talks about God making everything there is out of nothing at all, and then forming it the way He wanted it, and hanging the stars in space where He wanted them, and making the laws of nature the way He wanted them, and making everything work properly. The first is creation (making everything out of nothing) and only God can do that. Mankind can only do the second part, reforming what is already there into new shapes.

It is not a misuse of the word to say that I created an excel spreadsheet today.

Maybe you aren't a native English speaker. But this is perfectly correct use of the word.

Here are some more examples:
Isaiah 4:5 ESV
[5] Then the Lord will create over the whole site of Mount Zion and over her assemblies a cloud by day, and smoke and the shining of a flaming fire by night; for over all the glory there will be a canopy.

God creates smoke.

Isaiah 41:18-20 ESV
[18] I will open rivers on the bare heights, and fountains in the midst of the valleys. I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water. [19] I will put in the wilderness the cedar, the acacia, the myrtle, and the olive. I will set in the desert the cypress, the plane and the pine together, [20] that they may see and know, may consider and understand together, that the hand of the Lord has done this, the Holy One of Israel has created it.

God creates rivers.

Isaiah 43:1 ESV
[1] But now thus says the Lord, he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: “Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are mine.

God created Jacob. Do you think that Jacob didn't have a mother?


Isaiah 54:16
God created a blacksmith.

65:18
God created Jerusalem.

These are obviously not ex nihilo creations.

 

[Job 33:6]

I stand corrected, the verse does say that God created Jerusalem. And it uses the Hebrew word "בוֹרֵ֧א (ḇō·w·rê)" which means:

Usage: The Hebrew verb "bara'" primarily means "to create" and is used in the Bible to denote the divine act of creation. It is a term that signifies the initiation of something new, often implying a creation ex nihilo (out of nothing), which is a unique attribute of God's creative power. Unlike other Hebrew words for making or forming, "bara'" is exclusively used in reference to God's creative acts, underscoring His sovereignty and omnipotence.

Nope. It's not ex nihilo.

God bara'd Jacob. Do you think that Jacob appeared out of thin air?

Isaiah 43:1 ESV
[1] But now thus says the Lord, he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: “Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are mine.

There are lots of examples in scripture where it doesn't involve matter appearing out of nothing.

So I'm Genesis 1, it's a false assumption that this is what is being described of heaven and earth.

And that's a fact.

 

[Job 33:6]

Here's another one:
Ezekiel 21:30 ESV
[30] Return it to its sheath. In the place where you were created, in the land of your origin, I will judge you.

It's talking about the pagan tribe, the ammonites.

Did God make the ammonites appear out of nothing?

 

[Job 33:6]

Scripture says that God made man's body from the dust He had already created. And then He created from nothing the soul that He put into the body He had formed. God did indeed create man, but He did it in several separate processes.

So what, you read Genesis 2 before you read Genesis 1? Is that how you justify your opinion, by reading scripture backwards?

How about the fish and birds. Was God only creating their souls too and not their physical bodies?

And yet for some reason, this doesn't apply to earth and earth must be a material creation even when the exact same word, bara, is used?

There is a physical something that makes the North north and the South south. God created that.

It's not talking about something physical. It's just saying that God created the North and the south.

Actually, that is exactly what wind is, lol.

Wind does not appear out of nothing. It's atoms moving around in the sky.

 

[Job 33:6]

So what, you read Genesis 2 before you read Genesis 1? Is that how you justify your opinion, by reading scripture backwards?

How about the fish and birds. Was God only creating their souls too and not their physical bodies?

And yet for some reason, this doesn't apply to earth and earth must be a material creation even when the exact same word, bara, is used?

It's not talking about something physical. It's just saying that God created the North and the south.


Wind does not appear out of nothing. It's atoms moving around in the sky.

@Doug Brents

I'm just messing with you.

But seriously. If you study the ancient near east tradition of Genesis, you'll quickly notice that it is not describing physical material appearing out of nothing.

And I hope you noticed my ammonite example above as well.

I could give more examples too, if you'd like.

 

[Doug Brents]

It is not a misuse of the word to say that I created an excel spreadsheet today.

Maybe you aren't a native English speaker. But this is perfectly correct use of the word.

It is a correct use of the word in English, but it is not the correct usage of the Hebrew word from which we translate "create". That word is attributed ONLY to God, and means that He made something out of nothing.

Nope. It's not ex nihilo.

God bara'd Jacob. Do you think that Jacob appeared out of thin air?

Isaiah 43:1 ESV
[1] But now thus says the Lord, he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: “Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are mine.

There are lots of examples in scripture where it doesn't involve matter appearing out of nothing.

So I'm Genesis 1, it's a false assumption that this is what is being described of heaven and earth.

And that's a fact.

No, that is not a false assumption at all. There was nothing in existence before God created everything, and everything will be destroyed completely at the end of time. It will all be consumed and will not be found, because there will be no place for it.

So what, you read Genesis 2 before you read Genesis 1? Is that how you justify your opinion, by reading scripture backwards?

No, I read it all, and then I use Scripture to interpret Scripture and clarify what it says.

How about the fish and birds. Was God only creating their souls too and not their physical bodies?

No, He created the animals and plants out of nothing. It does not say that He formed them from the dust, or that He fashioned them; it says He created them.

Wind does not appear out of nothing. It's atoms moving around in the sky.

Wind is just thin air. God created the air (out of nothing), and He created the rules that govern wind (out of nothing). He creates, we do not.

 

[Job 33:6]

It is a correct use of the word in English, but it is not the correct usage of the Hebrew word from which we translate "create". That word is attributed ONLY to God, and means that He made something out of nothing.

Nope. As noted above. The ammonites. Did God create them out of nothing? That's the same Hebrew word.

Jacob. Did God create Jacob out of nothing? That's the same Hebrew word.

Did God create a sign post out of nothing, or a blacksmith out of nothing?

Same Hebrew word.

None of these involve ex nihilo matter coming out of nothing. Among many more examples.

 

[Job 33:6]

No, He created the animals and plants out of nothing. It does not say that He formed them from the dust, or that He fashioned them; it says He created them.

It's the same Hebrew word for humanity on day 6. So now you're picking and choosing and changing it up.

That's nothing more than mental gymnastics. Reading chapter 2 first, and ducking and dodging in chapter 1 while interpreting the text in a backwards chronological order.

 

[Doug Brents]

It's the same Hebrew word for humanity on day 6. So now you're picking and choosing and changing it up.

That's nothing more than mental gymnastics. Reading chapter 2 first, and ducking and dodging in chapter 1 while interpreting the text in a backwards chronological order.

Nope. It is using Scripture to clarify Scripture. We are told that God created (made from nothing) man. But then we are told that God formed His body from the dust He had already created on day one. So what part of man did God create? It says that God "breathed the breath of life" into the body He had made. That breath of life (the soul of man) is what God created in that moment. It did not exist before He breathed it into the body He had made.

 

[Job 33:6]

@Doug Brents
Isaiah 43:1 ESV
[1] But now thus says the Lord, he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: “Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are mine.

Did Jacob have a mother? Yes?

Ok, he was not created "out of nothing".

Its that simple.

Ezekiel 21:30 ESV
[30] Return it to its sheath. In the place where you were created, in the land of your origin, I will judge you.

Same Hebrew word. Did God created the ammonites out of thin air?

No.

That's not what the word means.

 

[Job 33:6]

Nope. It is using Scripture to clarify Scripture. We are told that God created (made from nothing) man. But then we are told that God formed His body from the dust He had already created on day one. So what part of man did God create? It says that God "breathed the breath of life" into the body He had made. That breath of life (the soul of man) is what God created in that moment. It did not exist before He breathed it into the body He had made.

Youre not using scripture to justify scripture. You're doing gymnastics to escape the obvious.

Did Jacob appear out of nothing? Or did he have a mother?

 

[Doug Brents]

Youre not using scripture to justify scripture. You're doing gymnastics to escape the obvious.

Did Jacob appear out of nothing? Or did he have a mother?

He certainly had a mother. But then, so did Jesus, and He (His body at least) was created out of nothing inside of Mary. So did God create Jacob inside his mother? Or is this a case of the word create being used to indicate "formed from what is" rather than "made from nothing"? I would lean toward the latter, but the former is not out of the question given the wording. Maybe there was only one child, Esau, and God made Jacob out of nothing and put him in with Esau. Is this a stretch, certainly, but it is not beyond what God is capable of doing.

 

[Job 33:6]

He certainly had a mother. But then, so did Jesus, and He (His body at least) was created out of nothing inside of Mary. So did God create Jacob inside his mother? Or is this a case of the word create being used to indicate "formed from what is" rather than "made from nothing"? I would lean toward the latter, but the former is not out of the question given the wording. Maybe there was only one child, Esau, and God made Jacob out of nothing and put him in with Esau. Is this a stretch, certainly, but it is not beyond what God is capable of doing.

Jacob wasn't born of a virgin and was not God incarnate.

Do you have a response that doesn't involve avoiding the obvious?

Were the ammonites and the blacksmith born of a virgin as God incarnate too?

Ezekiel 21:30 ESV
[30] Return it to its sheath. In the place where you were created, in the land of your origin, I will judge you.

How far are you willing to stretch your imagination?

 

[Job 33:6]

@Doug Brents

And again, back to this one:
Psalm 51, the psalmist asks God to create in him, a clean heart. That's obviously not ex nihilo.

Did the psalmist not have a physical heart beforehand?

Of course he did.

And so, you cannot say, that this term, by definition, involves physical material coming out of nothing.

You could probably say that it is something coming out of nothing in some sort of metaphorical way.

But that only justifies the point. When you read that word in Genesis, what you're reading, whether you're ready to accept this or not, is not actually describing physical matter coming out of nothing.

This is an anachronistic belief born out of the early Catholic Church. Or perhaps slightly earlier in Greek philosophy of the intertestimental period.

 

[Job 33:6]

 

[Job 33:6]

@Doug Brents

And again, back to this one:
Psalm 51, the psalmist asks God to create in him, a clean heart. That's obviously not ex nihilo.

Did the psalmist not have a physical heart beforehand?

Of course he did.

And so, you cannot say, that this term, by definition, involves physical material coming out of nothing.

You could probably say that it is something coming out of nothing in some sort of metaphorical way.

But that only justifies the point. When you read that word in Genesis, what you're reading, whether you're ready to accept this or not, is not actually describing physical matter coming out of nothing.

This is an anachronistic belief born out of the early Catholic Church. Or perhaps slightly earlier in Greek philosophy of the intertestimental period.

And also, I don't even need to push hard for this because you've already acknowledged it. But in Genesis 1, bara is related to the soul and the imago dei.

There is nothing physical about that. It's not talking about mankind appearing out of thin air.

So, when we read this word, bara, we need to be a little more careful than to just blindly assume that Genesis 1:1 is talking about a planet appearing out of thin air like a magic trick.

 

[Doug Brents]

And also, I don't even need to push hard for this because you've already acknowledged it. But in Genesis 1, bara is related to the soul and the imago dei.

There is nothing physical about that. It's not talking about mankind appearing out of thin air.

So, when we read this word, bara, we need to be a little more careful than to just blindly assume that Genesis 1:1 is talking about a planet appearing out of thin air like a magic trick.

"Creation" does not require that the thing made be physical. God created our souls out of nothing, and then breathed that soul into the body He had made for Adam.