How narrow is the "narrow way"?

[bling]

If the prodigal son depicts salvation, then salvation is by works, not grace. The prodigal was already a son, born of the father, without any choice in the matter. Just as we have no choice in the matter of salvation.

“Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.” (John 15:16)

Jesus can use any words He wants in tell a parable, yet in the parable of the “Prodigal Son” Jesus has the Father describe the prodigal son as being “dead” even after the father representing (God) knows the son is physically alive. Being in a dead state very much described the nonbeliever, so can a believer return to being dead?

Biblical “work” is doing something worthy of pay or some reward, but what the prodigal son did is not worthy of pay or some reward, just like the nonbeliever can turn and the turning not be “work”.

We have no choice in salvation since we come as undeserving sinners, but by just turning to God we allow God to shower us with gifts. Most people do not want to accept pure sacrificial charity (Love/mercy/grace/forgiveness) and God will not force His charity (Love) on them (like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun) and even if God tried to force them to accept His Love, the love they got would not be Godly type Love which must be the result of an autonomous free will choice.

My belief is: A new born baby is not in a dead state and is a child of God, until that person sins, but can returns to an even better state after repenting. Which is like the prodigal son.

 

[Dave L]

Jesus can use any words He wants in tell a parable, yet in the parable of the “Prodigal Son” Jesus has the Father describe the prodigal son as being “dead” even after the father representing (God) knows the son is physically alive. Being in a dead state very much described the nonbeliever, so can a believer return to being dead?

Biblical “work” is doing something worthy of pay or some reward, but what the prodigal son did is not worthy of pay or some reward, just like the nonbeliever can turn and the turning not be “work”.

We have no choice in salvation since we come as undeserving sinners, but by just turning to God we allow God to shower us with gifts. Most people do not want to accept pure sacrificial charity (Love/mercy/grace/forgiveness) and God will not force His charity (Love) on them (like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun) and even if God tried to force them to accept His Love, the love they got would not be Godly type Love which must be the result of an autonomous free will choice.

My belief is: A new born baby is not in a dead state and is a child of God, until that person sins, but can returns to an even better state after repenting. Which is like the prodigal son.

You are teaching salvation by works. A better illustration for salvation would be Lazarus dead and rotting in the tomb. And Jesus brought him to life from his state of decay and stench so he could flee the tomb. It is the nature of the New Birth to flee the tomb which represents our sins.

 

[EmSw]

You are teaching salvation by works. A better illustration for salvation would be Lazarus dead and rotting in the tomb. And Jesus brought him to life from his state of decay and stench so he could flee the tomb. It is the nature of the New Birth to flee the tomb which represents our sins.

Yet Lazarus went back to his sins (the tomb). The new birth you describe is temporary.

 

[Dave L]

Yet Lazarus went back to his sins (the tomb). The new birth you describe is temporary.

Lazarus did not return to the tomb. He went to heaven and will be reunited with his body, resurrected and glorified on the last day.

 

[EmSw]

Lazarus did not return to the tomb. He went to heaven and will be reunited with his body, resurrected and glorified on the last day.

Do you mean Lazarus did not die again?

 

[Dave L]

Do you mean Lazarus did not die again?

You cannot die if you have eternal life. Only our bodies die and for a good purpose. We leave all of our sinful nature in the ground and Christ raises us new without sin.

 

[EmSw]

You cannot die if you have eternal life. Only our bodies die and for a good purpose. We leave all of our sinful nature in the ground and Christ raises us new without sin.

When Jesus raised him from the dead, that is all it was, his body died.

 

[Chinchilla]

Jesus can use any words He wants in tell a parable, yet in the parable of the “Prodigal Son” Jesus has the Father describe the prodigal son as being “dead” even after the father representing (God) knows the son is physically alive. Being in a dead state very much described the nonbeliever, so can a believer return to being dead?

Biblical “work” is doing something worthy of pay or some reward, but what the prodigal son did is not worthy of pay or some reward, just like the nonbeliever can turn and the turning not be “work”.

We have no choice in salvation since we come as undeserving sinners, but by just turning to God we allow God to shower us with gifts. Most people do not want to accept pure sacrificial charity (Love/mercy/grace/forgiveness) and God will not force His charity (Love) on them (like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun) and even if God tried to force them to accept His Love, the love they got would not be Godly type Love which must be the result of an autonomous free will choice.

My belief is: A new born baby is not in a dead state and is a child of God, until that person sins, but can returns to an even better state after repenting. Which is like the prodigal son.

Prodigal Son did not stop being Son even tho he was dead .

 

[Dave L]

When Jesus raised him from the dead, that is all it was, his body died.

But, the new birth is the resurrection of the human spirit from the dead followed by the resurrection of the body.

 

[EmSw]

But, the new birth is the resurrection of the human spirit from the dead followed by the resurrection of the body.

However, Jesus raising Lazarus from the tomb was the resurrection of the body. You said the nature of the new birth was to flee the tomb. Lazarus did flee the tomb, but bodily.

 

[EmSw]

Prodigal Son did not stop being Son even tho he was dead .

What constitutes not stopping being a son? Weren't you a son of the devil, before a son of God? Did you not have to die to being a son to the devil, and then become alive to be a son of God? Were you not lost being a son of the devil, and found when you became a son of God?

 

[Dave L]

However, Jesus raising Lazarus from the tomb was the resurrection of the body. You said the nature of the new birth was to flee the tomb. Lazarus did flee the tomb, but bodily.

It was not THE resurrection in which we receive glorified bodies. It was a miracle to glorify God.

“But when Jesus heard it, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified thereby.” (John 11:4)

 

[Chinchilla]

What constitutes not stopping being a son? Weren't you a son of the devil, before a son of God? Did you not have to die to being a son to the devil, and then become alive to be a son of God? Were you not lost being a son of the devil, and found when you became a son of God?

Job received everything twice but only 10 children because he still had 10 but they were alive somewhere else .

What is born of God does not commit single sin ,therefore it never dies and never becomes unborn .

 

[bling]

You are teaching salvation by works. A better illustration for salvation would be Lazarus dead and rotting in the tomb. And Jesus brought him to life from his state of decay and stench so he could flee the tomb. It is the nature of the New Birth to flee the tomb which represents our sins.

Lazarus was saved before he went to the tomb.

You are using your own pet definition of “work” and not a Biblical definition of work.

A hurting person begging for true pure charity with hand out is not “working”.

The person who wimps out, gives up and/or surrenders has quit working and is not working.

Working results in earning or deserving something. What the prodigal son did is not deserving of anything good, so he did not “work” and nonbelievers can do the same thing the prodigal son did and not “work”.

Please give me your definition of “work” supported by scripture?

 

[Dave L]

Lazarus was saved before he went to the tomb.

You are using your own pet definition of “work” and not a Biblical definition of work.

A hurting person begging for true pure charity with hand out is not “working”.

The person who wimps out, gives up and/or surrenders has quit working and is not working.

Working results in earning or deserving something. What the prodigal son did is not deserving of anything good, so he did not “work” and nonbelievers can do the same thing the prodigal son did and not “work”.

Please give me your definition of “work” supported by scripture?

Grace = unmerited favor. Works = merited favor. Grace = we respond to God. Works = God responds to us. Grace = God's glory. Works = our glory. etc., etc.

 

[faroukfarouk]

But how do you receive that grace if you don't have faith in it? You can't receive something you don't believe or trust in. This is why God causes us to choose just as the Israelites chose to obey him (Deuteronomy 30:19), and those that choose not to obey the gospel of Christ from the heart (Romans 6:17) are punished by the wrath of God, because they know not God through Christ (2 Thessalonians 1:8).

I agree with you that the grace of God that gives salvation (Titus 2:11) is unconditional and freely given unto all men. The rub is that we are given the choice to believe on Christ in order to receive the free gift (John 1:12, Ephesians 1:13). So a person can hold knowledge of Christ and the fact that he died and rose again, but unless he trusts the Lord and his gospel, that through the name of Christ he should be saved (Acts of the Apostles 4:12), he did not know God, therefore being condemned by not obeying the will of the Father (Matthew 7:21, John 6:40). Otherwise, what you're suggesting is a strange form of universalism by saying that faith doesn't play any sort of part in receiving the free gift of God.

Nicolaus Mourer:

An apt verse:

Psalm 65.4:

"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple."

 

[bling]

Grace = unmerited favor. Works = merited favor. Grace = we respond to God. Works = God responds to us. Grace = God's glory. Works = our glory. etc., etc.

I would disagree that "Works = God responds to us" is found anywhere in scripture. God responds or reacts to all human free will actions, but not all man's free will actions are good.
I would also disagree with: "Grace = we respond to God" since God is always gracious, yet man does not always accept God's grace/mercy/charity/Love.
God can Love us, leave us or be disappointed with us and those are not "work" for God.
You might also distinguish between righteous and unrighteous works.
You still are not "defining "work" as found in scripture, but talking about it since you are saying: Works = merited favor= God responds to us, since a=b and b=c so a=c?

 

[Dave L]

I would disagree that "Works = God responds to us" is found anywhere in scripture. God responds or reacts to all human free will actions, but not all man's free will actions are good.
I would also disagree with: "Grace = we respond to God" since God is always gracious, yet man does not always accept God's grace/mercy/charity/Love.
God can Love us, leave us or be disappointed with us and those are not "work" for God.
You might also distinguish between righteous and unrighteous works.
You still are not "defining "work" as found in scripture, but talking about it since you are saying: Works = merited favor= God responds to us, since a=b and b=c so a=c?

Here's how it works. God saves all who believe the gospel. This is salvation by grace. But if you change the gospel into law and make salvation conditional, then God owes salvation to all who meet the conditions. This is salvation by works.

 

[~Anastasia~]

The typical definition of grace as "unmerited favor" is really a symptom and continuation of the tendency born in Catholicism to both quantify the grace of God as well as consider everything through a heavily legalistic lens.

We understand Grace to be the very Energies of God Himself - how we can know Him (since His Essence is unknowable). All of the action of the Holy Spirit with us is a manifestation of Grace.

God WANTS to save and heal people from the terrible effects of sin. Grace is all of His action to do so. We can cooperate with it or we can refuse Him. Which we choose determines whether we are transformed to become more like Christ (i.e. saved) or whether we continue to sink deeper into sin-sickness and we will hate God when we must stand before Him.

The means by which we cooperate (or not) is how we live our lives. Actions are a big part of that, but it also includes words, thoughts, attitudes, etc. And these are going to be determined by what we believe.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Job received everything twice but only 10 children because he still had 10 but they were alive somewhere else .

What is born of God does not commit single sin ,therefore it never dies and never becomes unborn .

What about Adam - born of God, disobeyed, died.

Jesus Says Today same warning: Be Terrified lest anyone fall short ....
"IF you hear His Voice, do NOT REBEL as the children did in the desert and perished....
"How much more Judgment will be against those who reject Jesus ....