How narrow is the "narrow way"?

[Bible Highlighter]

How would you say you post things that are not dealt with, when you post a straw man argument which is against things in which I am not disagreeing with you? I don't need to deal with those points, I already agree. Rather, it was a generic, and long and certainly pre-written, post that did not deal with what I did post.

As far as repentance I can define it as much as the Bible does. The Bible, and Jesus speaking about it, assume you know what repentance is. Too bad many in this generation are making it confusing. Recognize you are doing wrong. Seek God's forgiveness and what God's will for you is, seeking to turn from the wrong things you know about and doing right things. This shouldn't be hard. God would have it made known to you, you must come to Christ and come to God through Christ. And God is not willing that any perish, but they must come to repentance.

Those you know of, whoever they are (you did not name any), were not doing that.

Okay.

Do you believe in Conditional Salvation? This is the view that salvation is conditioned upon our continued faith and or faithfulness to the LORD. Things like Unconditional Eternal Security are false. Do you believe such a teaching is false?

If we turn back to our old sinful ways, or we think we can sin and still be saved, we are not going to make it. Do you agree with that viewpoint?

Do you believe repentance is seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ?
Do you believe the fruit of repentance is to do good works?

 

[FredVB]

Okay.

Do you believe in Conditional Salvation? This is the view that salvation is conditioned upon our continued faith and or faithfulness to the LORD. Things like Unconditional Eternal Security are false. Do you believe such a teaching is false?

If we turn back to our old sinful ways, or we think we can sin and still be saved, we are not going to make it. Do you agree with that viewpoint?

Do you believe repentance is seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ?
Do you believe the fruit of repentance is to do good works?

It seemed to me that this was answered. The essential faith is with repentance, this would be with continued faithfulness, or else it is not that essential faith. That is what is conditional. There are sins to still overcome, but this will happen over a believers life and they will continually sin much less, if they came to the essential faith. Of course, absolutely, it is with seeking that forgiveness and there is fruit from repentance, the growing fruit of the Spirit, which are with the works from that, only works thar there are with the fruit of Spirit. We must grow in those, we start with such being limited but it should not stay with the limitations. There are those who fall away, the essential faith, which is with repentance, was lacking.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It seemed to me that this was answered. The essential faith is with repentance, this would be with continued faithfulness, or else it is not that essential faith. That is what is conditional. There are sins to still overcome, but this will happen over a believers life and they will continually sin much less, if they came to the essential faith. Of course, absolutely, it is with seeking that forgiveness and there is fruit from repentance, the growing fruit of the Spirit, which are with the works from that, only works thar there are with the fruit of Spirit. We must grow in those, we start with such being limited but it should not stay with the limitations. There are those who fall away, the essential faith, which is with repentance, was lacking.

What do you make of verses like 1 Peter 4:1-2, Galatians 5:24, and 2 Corinthians 7:1?
Do you believe most of Christianity believes they can sin and still be saved on some level?
I believe most Christianity believe they are saved solely by a belief alone in Jesus and that their conduct does not ultimately matter.
They may say it does, but when push comes to shove, they double-speak and say otherwise.
To some, a little bit of right conduct matters to show they have been saved in the past, but they are also under the impression that one can commit certain sins without confessing and forsaking them and one is still saved. Christians have told me that the fornicating man in 1 Corinthians 5 was saved before he repented and came back. This is heresy. In the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the son was said to be “dead” and “alive again” after he came home to his father seeking forgiveness of his sins in living it up with prostitutes.

Do you believe King David was saved while he was abiding by his sins of adultery and murder?
What about a believer today? If a believer abides by the sin of fornication, are they still saved?

In short, do you believe a Christian can go from a saved state, to a lost state, and then back to a saved state again because of their justifying sin?

 

[FredVB]

I do not know most people. Perhaps you know so many? I know Bible verses show things. Such as, they were among us but were not of us. There might be many, and there are probably some, that say they are believers, and maybe believe that, but they don't repent, and there isn't change, until they renounce faith.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I do not know most people. Perhaps you know so many? I know Bible verses show things. Such as, they were among us but were not of us. There might be many, and there are probably some, that say they are believers, and maybe believe that, but they don't repent, and there isn't change, until they renounce faith.

First, you did not address my points of my last post.
I say this because I am not sure where you stand on this issue. You appear to be foggy in the way you speak on this matter.
Second, I have been talking to Christians online and in person or a long time now (2010/2011) and most do not believe that sin can separate them from God once they believe in Jesus and the finished work of the cross. They will say some right conduct will be evident of having been saved, but they also double speak and say you can sin and still be saved. This is what they believe. They are all around you. Very few Christians today preach on holy conduct as a part of God’s plan of salvation AFTER we are saved by God’s grace.

You can also just look at Christian articles, too. Most of them teach that you can sin and still be saved (Although they will double speak and say some level of holy conduct will be present). But they contradict themselves and say that unholy conduct will not really separate you from God, though.

For example, take Gotquestions.org. They state that a Christian is defined by holy conduct, and yet they double speak and contradict themselves and say that a prodigal back-slidden Christian who went into a lifestyle of sin is still saved.

See their article here that states this:

Is a backsliding Christian still saved? | GotQuestions.org

Is a backsliding / backslidden Christian still saved? How far can a true Christian backslide?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[FredVB]

First, you did not address my points of my last post.
I say this because I am not sure where you stand on this issue. You appear to be foggy in the way you speak on this matter.
Second, I have been talking to Christians online and in person or a long time now (2010/2011) and most do not believe that sin can separate them from God once they believe in Jesus and the finished work of the cross. They will say some right conduct will be evident of having been saved, but they also double speak and say you can sin and still be saved. This is what they believe. They are all around you. Very few Christians today preach on holy conduct as a part of God’s plan of salvation AFTER we are saved by God’s grace.

You can also just look at Christian articles, too. Most of them teach that you can sin and still be saved (Although they will double speak and say some level of holy conduct will be present). But they contradict themselves and say that unholy conduct will not really separate you from God, though.

For example, take Gotquestions.org. They state that a Christian is defined by holy conduct, and yet they double speak and contradict themselves and say that a prodigal back-slidden Christian who went into a lifestyle of sin is still saved.

See their article here that states this:

Is a backsliding Christian still saved? | GotQuestions.org

Is a backsliding / backslidden Christian still saved? How far can a true Christian backslide?

www.gotquestions.org

I do not agree with you IF you are saying that at any one time you sin, you are not saved then. But repentance really is neglected in many cases where salvation is taught or preached, no wonder then that Christians are confused and some would sometimes contradict themselves. I certainly try to avoid that. Salvation is with repentant faith, and one comes to Christ, for restoration to God. Humans are all weak in this regard, and especially when a new believer, there are old ways easy to slip back to, but a believer, who is repentant, has awareness or is shown by God's Spirit, that they repent of it right away. Salvation is not lost in that interim, there is nothing biblical about that to show. But if there is no change and one goes on living in ways with sinfulness involved, that is evidence that one is not a true believer, with that repentant faith. Such would probably not last with the claimed faith before turning from it. But what are sins? Not just what you claim are sins. Those are what you should not do. What are sins for anyone else are things clearly shown in the Bible, hurtful to others for selfish reasons or needlessly such as with spitefulness, and any willful rebellion to God and any to God's will, which is shown, from the start. Holiness is what we as believers should grow to. But one of us claiming we are there more than any others is in actuality sinning, with something like pride, or wrongfully judging, involved. There is yet more to see or learn, to grow in, we just need to respond to God, instead of being critical of others.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I do not agree with you IF you are saying that at any one time you sin, you are not saved then. But repentance really is neglected in many cases where salvation is taught or preached, no wonder then that Christians are confused and some would sometimes contradict themselves. I certainly try to avoid that. Salvation is with repentant faith, and one comes to Christ, for restoration to God. Humans are all weak in this regard, and especially when a new believer, there are old ways easy to slip back to, but a believer, who is repentant, has awareness or is shown by God's Spirit, that they repent of it right away. Salvation is not lost in that interim, there is nothing biblical about that to show. But if there is no change and one goes on living in ways with sinfulness involved, that is evidence that one is not a true believer, with that repentant faith. Such would probably not last with the claimed faith before turning from it. But what are sins? Not just what you claim are sins. Those are what you should not do. What are sins for anyone else are things clearly shown in the Bible, hurtful to others for selfish reasons or needlessly such as with spitefulness, and any willful rebellion to God and any to God's will, which is shown, from the start. Holiness is what we as believers should grow to. But one of us claiming we are there more than any others is in actuality sinning, with something like pride, or wrongfully judging, involved. There is yet more to see or learn, to grow in, we just need to respond to God, instead of being critical of others.

#1. Numbers 35:16-18 says it only takes one act of murder to be a murderer, and Leviticus 20:10 says it only takes one act of adultery to be an adulterer.

#2. Jesus Himself regarded just looking at a woman once as an act of adultery (Matthew 5:28).

#3. John says, "No murderer has eternal life abiding in them." (1 John 3:15).

#4. Proverbs 6:32 says, "Whosoever commits adultery with a woman lacks understanding: he that does it destroys his own soul."

#5. Jesus Himself says that just looking at a woman in lust (Which is adultery) is potential for a person to be cast bodily in hell fire (See Matthew 5:28-30).

#6. David needed to confess his sin in order to be forgiven (See Psalms 51).

#7. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

#8. Revelation 21:8 says, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Murderers and whoremongers will be cast into the lake of fire. All liars will be cast into the lake of fire. ALL liars, and not just some. NO murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15).

 

[FredVB]

Do you think a look at a woman is adultery for you? Too bad for you, it would be sin for you if you do, then. Adultery takes place between two with one of whom, if not both, being married to someone else. But certainly the text is talking about lust, and so lust has to be present for it to apply to anyone else. Now you have to define lust to suggest that a look at a woman constitutes that. I just see it must be with a deliberate will thinking of how to have sex with that other one.

 

[Roderick Spode]

I believe I am a born again Christian. I came to a point in my life where The Holy Spirit moved upon me, I recognized it, I acknowledged it, I was convicted of my sin BY the Holy Spirit, I was sorry, I desired to get to know this being - this person - this Holy Spirit, He accepted me, and I was born again. I went to bed that night full of fire and having a heart for God I never thought would come into my life in my dizziest daydreams. I felt so cool the next day at school because I personally had met the one true GOD almighty! I wondered who else around me possibly had this rebirth, and I had a yearning for everyone I knew to come to this same knowledge, to experience God personally in that way which would change their lives forever.

Regardless of my own testimony, how many Christians are actually going to find the narrow way? I wonder myself, "Am I walking along the path that Jesus himself calls the 'narrow way that leads into eternal life'?"

Try looking at this verse in Luke 15 another way.

10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

Imagine that sinner repenting, and the angels of God say "let's not celebrate too early, the repented sinner hasn't made it yet". I think it's safe to say when the angels experience this joy, it's not a hasty celebration. One commentator put it something like the angels are celebrating because a great victory has been won. At the same time we don't want to over simplify the narrow way by making assumptions, we don't want to over complicate it either. It would appear you've found the narrow way. Along the narrow way we will experience the same hardships everyone else does. We might fall, but we will be picked up. Some may fall into the same sin they were forgiven of, and experience severe chastening. It's not an easy walk, but the concept isn't necessarily difficult. A lot of people just haven't found that narrow way...Jesus Christ.

What about lukewarmness? Jesus said, I would rather you be hot or cold, for if you are lukewarm, I will spit you out of my mouth.

The problem with lukewarmness, is that it's not always easy to recognize. If you have your guard up for it, that's a good thing. Persecuted Christians have the advantage of having to be hot just to survive. Those of us in the free world have the responsibility to be just as hot as those persecuted. They who have most, more is expected. God deals with lukewarmness for any believer on the path like He does any sin that may render a believer cold while on the path.

What about intentional sin? If I step on your toe and then apologize, and you say it's okay, but then I do it again, and you forgive me again, and I continue to do it because I know I can get away with it, what of the "narrow way" then?

1 Corinthians 6

(NLT) 9Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, 10or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. 11Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

What about born again Christians who continue to walk in some of these ways? Obviously the actions listed above are not in accordance to the "narrow way". I will be honest. I am guilty of at least one of these wrong doings. I know I ought to repent of it, maybe I struggle with it and maybe I have not yet been corrected of it. But when I do it, I know I am committing a wrong doing that is not in line with the "narrow way" which has led me to start this thread to seek out how all of this comes together.

From my experience, God makes it more and more uncomfortable in compromising with a particular sin. And often there's that day when it just has to stop. It's like someone compromising their health with some unhealthy food. They continue to eat unhealthy until the doctor says they have to stop.

But we're really all in the same boat along the path. It's easy to get the idea that we're okay as long as we don't practice tangible or obvious sins. The problem is that God hates things like pride, and a haughty look. Those can be harder to identify as they are easier to dismiss as something else, or minimize them. A person addicted to alcohol or a drug for instance just has to stop the act. They can confess the pleasure it gave them. A prideful believer can tell themselves it's not really pride, and how does one even know they have a haughty look? And we never really hear anyone confess to how pleasurable being prideful felt. Or pleasurable it was on facial muscles when having a haughty look.

1 Corinthians 3 Paul writes...

(NLT) 10Because of God’s grace to me, I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one we already have—Jesus Christ.

12Anyone who builds on that foundation may use a variety of materials—gold, silver, jewels, wood, hay, or straw. 13But on the judgment day, fire will reveal what kind of work each builder has done. The fire will show if a person’s work has any value. 14If the work survives, that builder will receive a reward. 15But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.

16Don’t you realize that all of you together are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God lives in you? 17God will destroy anyone who destroys this temple. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.

In verse 15 above, it says we will saved, but we will be like someone escaping through the flames. Could this be the consequence to our sin even after we have been born again? Is the "narrow way" simply BEING born again? Or is the narrow way being born again AND building with a "material" that survives the fire so that we are rewarded, like in verses 13 and 14 above?

All of us have a calling. If we try to do someone else's calling other than ours, the building is in vain. If someone tries to be a pastor, but not called to be one, they may experience seeing the work they did burned up. That's just a simplified example, but the important thing is to do what God calls you to do, which generally involves things we don't think we have the ability to do, thus God gets the Glory.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Do you think a look at a woman is adultery for you? Too bad for you, it would be sin for you if you do, then. Adultery takes place between two with one of whom, if not both, being married to someone else. But certainly the text is talking about lust, and so lust has to be present for it to apply to anyone else. Now you have to define lust to suggest that a look at a woman constitutes that. I just see it must be with a deliberate will thinking of how to have sex with that other one.

Paul lists adultery and fornication right next to each other and says that they which do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God (See Galatians 5:19-21). John say's to hate your brother is the equivalent of murder and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (See 1 John 3:15). Jesus condemned looking at a woman in lust involving adultery but as I pointed out, fornication attached to spiritual death is condemned elsewhere in the Bible (by the use of other words). The problem is that most of Christianity do not believe the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:28-30. They don’t believe Jesus when He condemns adultery (by lusting with the eyes). They don’t believe Jesus when He says that a soul is in danger of hellfire if they look upon another woman in lust. Granted, a believer can change course. They can confess and forsake sin to have mercy (Proverbs 28:13). But many don’t believe that, either.

 

[FredVB]

Paul lists adultery and fornication right next to each other and says that they which do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God (See Galatians 5:19-21). John say's to hate your brother is the equivalent of murder and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (See 1 John 3:15). Jesus condemned looking at a woman in lust involving adultery but as I pointed out, fornication attached to spiritual death is condemned elsewhere in the Bible (by the use of other words). The problem is that most of Christianity do not believe the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:28-30. They don’t believe Jesus when He condemns adultery (by lusting with the eyes). They don’t believe Jesus when He says that a soul is in danger of hellfire if they look upon another woman in lust. Granted, a believer can change course. They can confess and forsake sin to have mercy (Proverbs 28:13). But many don’t believe that, either.

Of course. Adultery and fornication in general are contrary to godliness. There is repentance made available for turning from sins, like those or any sins, fortunately, that there can be with coming to Christ in faith. But it is not needed that a male, or for that matter a female, person avoid ever looking at a woman, or even admiring one. It is lust that should be avoided. That is the significant distinction. If you cannot avoid lust when looking at a woman then indeed avoid looking at any woman. But still, lust is willful in nature.

Hate of others is likewise sinful and contrary to godliness. Do not hate any others.

These are things we are responsible ourselves for, not a fault in the way we are made.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Of course. Adultery and fornication in general are contrary to godliness. There is repentance made available for turning from sins, like those or any sins, fortunately, that there can be with coming to Christ in faith. But it is not needed that a male, or for that matter a female, person avoid ever looking at a woman, or even admiring one. It is lust that should be avoided. That is the significant distinction. If you cannot avoid lust when looking at a woman then indeed avoid looking at any woman. But still, lust is willful in nature.

Hate of others is likewise sinful and contrary to godliness. Do not hate any others.

These are things we are responsible ourselves for, not a fault in the way we are made.

Right, so if it is contrary to godliness then you must accept 1 Timothy 6:3-4 which says that if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. Yet, we know James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. That’s why those who think they can sin and still be saved are not going to make it. They want the best of worlds. Yet, one cannot serve two masters, for they will hate the one and love the other.

I hope this helps you to see where I am coming from, and may the Lord Jesus Christ bless you and your family.