How narrow is the "narrow way"?

5thKingdom

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Confused to what your point is and you have not explained your new vocabulary words for the lay person.


I am sorry if you are still confused about the CONTEXT of the verses
relating to the narrow way and the BROAD WAY being people in the
church (people calling Jesus "Lord", as opposed to non-Christians)
and the two different gospels taught in "Christian" churches.

Do you understand the difference between a "synergistic" gospel
(like Arminianism) and a "monergistic" gospel (like Sovereign Grace)?
That (understanding) would be the place to START your "Bible study".

BTW... I did not invent some "new vocabulary" which "lay people"
are not expected to understand, these are essential elements to
the "gospel" preached in Christian churches.

Jim
 
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corinth77777

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I am sure I read the passage before ...
And my opinion still stands that the narrow way or path is the life of Jesus. And the broad way is our own way.
My reason for this opinion is based on the scriptures that states Jesus is the way- John 14;16
And He became the source of salvation
As stated in Hebrews.
And of course if He is the beginning and the end then one must be in Him to start.
The question that I would asked is what is the kingdom consist of in the context, what does salvation mean and How does one experience eternal life and then what is the diff between eternal life and life eternal.
 
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5thKingdom

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I am sure I read the passage before ... And my opinion still stands that the narrow way or path is the life of Jesus. And the broad way is our own way.


Of course, the PROBLEM with your understanding of CONTEXT
is that you ignore that those following the narrow way and those
following the BROAD WAY both call Jesus their "Lord"... they both
claim to be Christian.

Jim
 
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corinth77777

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I am sorry if you are still confused about the CONTEXT of the verses
relating to the narrow way and the BROAD WAY being people in the
church (people calling Jesus "Lord", as opposed to non-Christians)
and the two different gospels taught in "Christian" churches.

Do you understand the difference between a "synergistic" gospel
(like Arminianism) and a "monergistic" gospel (like Sovereign Grace)?
That (understanding) would be the place to START your "Bible study".

BTW... I did not invent some "new vocabulary" which "lay people"
are not expected to understand, these are essential elements to
the "gospel" preached in Christian churches.

Jim
Exactly...those red ones...never heard of
 
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5thKingdom

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The question that I would asked is what is the kingdom consist of in the context, what does salvation mean and How does one experience eternal life and then what is the diff between eternal life and life eternal.


Again, as I indicated before,

Do you understand the difference between a "synergistic" gospel
(like Arminianism) and a "monergistic" gospel (like Sovereign Grace)?
That (understanding) would be the place to START your "Bible study"
since BOTH of these "gospels" are taught in the church and (at best)
only ONE of them can be (Biblical) Truth.

Jim
 
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corinth77777

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Of course, the PROBLEM with your understanding of CONTEXT
is that you ignore that those following the narrow way and those
following the BROAD WAY both call Jesus their "Lord"... they both
claim to be Christian.

Jim
I dont think I ignored that
 
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5thKingdom

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Exactly...those red ones...never heard of


Again, I did not CREATE a "new vocabulary".
The "narrow way" and the "broad way" are recorded in Matthew 7


Mat 7:13
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


And the CONTEXT of those (saved and unsaved) people...
the "wheat and tares" in the church... are people calling
Jesus their "Lord"... they are both "Christians".


Mat 7:21-23
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which
is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we
not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils?
and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I
profess unto them, I never knew you
: depart from me,
ye that work iniquity.


Both the "wheat and tares" in the church THINK they are saved.
Both THINK they are real Christians. Both THINK that Jesus
is their "Lord"... but only the "wheat" are "children of God"
and they can be KNOWN by their "fruit" of teaching the
True (monergistic) Gospel of Sovereign Grace.


All the "tares" show the "fruit" of not being saved [Gal 5:20]
by preaching the heresy of a synergistic "gospel"...
A "gospel" which clearly is heresy.


Jim
 
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corinth77777

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Again, as I indicated before,

Do you understand the difference between a "synergistic" gospel
(like Arminianism) and a "monergistic" gospel (like Sovereign Grace)?
That (understanding) would be the place to START your "Bible study"
since BOTH of these "gospels" are taught in the church and (at best)
only ONE of them can be (Biblical) Truth.

Jim
I never saw synergistic or monergistic...sounds like scholar stuff for the learned in a Siminary.....

Are those terms in the Bible?
 
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5thKingdom

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I dont think I ignored that


So... if you AGREE that both those following the narrow way
into eternal life and those following the BROAD WAY into
eternal destruction (and BOTH call Jesus their "Lord")
(both CLAIM to be Christian) what is your confusion?

Jim
 
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corinth77777

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Again, I did not CREATE a "new vocabulary".
The "narrow way" and the "broad way" are recorded in Matthew 7


Mat 7:13
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


And the CONTEXT of those (saved and unsaved) people...
the "wheat and tares" in the church... are people calling
Jesus their "Lord"... they are both "Christians".


Mat 7:21-23
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which
is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we
not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils?
and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I
profess unto them, I never knew you
: depart from me,
ye that work iniquity.


Both the "wheat and tares" in the church THINK they are saved.
Both THINK they are real Christians. Both THINK that Jesus
is their "Lord"... but only the "wheat" are "children of God"
and they can be KNOWN by their "fruit" of teaching the
True (monergistic) Gospel of Sovereign Grace.


All the "tares" show the "fruit" of not being saved [Gal 5:20]
by preaching the heresy of a synergistic "gospel"...
A "gospel" which clearly is heresy.


Jim
This is what You may or may not be missing

Those who believe who Jesus is an accept Him as savior are born again....[do you agree]

Do you believe regeneration comes before Justification? If not read Galatians 2:16...

Could that then mean people can believe and know and not to follow?

2ndly do you believe Reconciliation by His death is the same as being saved by His life?
 
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5thKingdom

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I never saw synergistic or monergistic...sounds like scholar stuff for the learned in a Siminary..... Are those terms in the Bible?


Is the term "Trinity" in the Bible?
Do you believe in a Triune God... as Jesus taught?


If you do not WANT to know the difference between
a synergistic and monergistic gospel... then you don't want
to know the difference between the True Gospel (of the "wheat")
and the false gospel (heresy) of the "tares" in the church.


These are fundamental and essential Biblical doctrines.
If you want to know the True (Biblical) Gospel then
you will need to understand these basic doctrines.


Jim
 
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corinth77777

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So... if you AGREE that both those following the narrow way
into eternal life and those following the BROAD WAY into
eternal destruction (and BOTH call Jesus their "Lord")
(both CLAIM to be Christian) what is your confusion?

Jim
Did I ever say that...or did I asked you to define eternal life from the context?
Reconciliation brings one out of the dark into the light.....read EPHESIANS 2: around vs 8

We are brought near for a reason...but one must see That the eternal life He gives is in relationship to The son and the father....at least in my opinionation.
 
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5thKingdom

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This is what You may or may not be missing

Those who believe who Jesus is an accept Him as savior are born again....[do you agree]


It does not matter what I believe... only what the Bible teaches.
And the Bible teaches that MANY people who think they are saved
Christians (the call Jesus their "Lord") are actually unsaved "tares"
sown by Satan.

Matthew 7:21-23
Matthew 25:1-13
Luke 13:23-30

The people REJECTED by Christ in those verses THOUGHT
they were saved... they called Jesus their "Lord"...
they were "Christians"

Thy were not Jews or Moslems or Atheists or Agnostics
or Humanists or Pagans or Satanists etc...

They were CHRISTIANS calling Jesus their "Lord"...
and yet Jesus denied ever knowing them. How can
that be if salvation is obtained by (how did YOU say it?)
they "accepted" Him as Savior.

The Bible is CRYSTAL clear in the verses above that MANY
people who "accepted" Jesus were NEVER SAVED.

Jim
 
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5thKingdom

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Did I ever say that...or did I asked you to define eternal life from the context?
Reconciliation brings one out of the dark into the light.....read EPHESIANS 2: around vs 8

We are brought near for a reason...but one must see That the eternal life He gives is in relationship to The son and the father....at least in my opinionation.


Tell me please...
is the CONTEXT of Ephesians 2:8

(a) Is it the saved "wheat" in the church sown by God or
(b) Is it the unsaved "tares" in the church sown by Satan

When we cannot discern the CONTEXT of a passage
then we have no hope of understanding the MEANING.

Jim
 
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corinth77777

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So... if you AGREE that both those following the narrow way
into eternal life and those following the BROAD WAY into
eternal destruction (and BOTH call Jesus their "Lord")
(both CLAIM to be Christian) what is your confusion?

Jim
Did not know where you were headed, nor what you meant by two gospels syngergtisic and monergistic....
 
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corinth77777

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Tell me please...
is the CONTEXT of Ephesians 2:8

(a) Is it the saved "wheat" in the church sown by God or
(b) Is it the unsaved "tares" in the church sown by Satan

When we cannot discern the CONTEXT of a passage
then we have no hope of understanding the MEANING.

Jim
In EPHESIANS 2:8 it doesnt mention wheat and tares.....I was interesting in that passage to show what one is saved from....[being in the dark, dead in sins.]...
 
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corinth77777

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It does not matter what I believe... only what the Bible teaches.
And the Bible teaches that MANY people who think they are saved
Christians (the call Jesus their "Lord") are actually unsaved "tares"
sown by Satan.

Matthew 7:21-23
Matthew 25:1-13
Luke 13:23-30

The people REJECTED by Christ in those verses THOUGHT
they were saved... they called Jesus their "Lord"...
they were "Christians"

Thy were not Jews or Moslems or Atheists or Agnostics
or Humanists or Pagans or Satanists etc...

They were CHRISTIANS calling Jesus their "Lord"...
and yet Jesus denied ever knowing them. How can
that be if salvation is obtained by (how did YOU say it?)
they "accepted" Him as Savior.

The Bible is CRYSTAL clear in the verses above that MANY
people who "accepted" Jesus were NEVER SAVED.

Jim
Your best question yet!
Because the salvation there which means deliverence is not talking about "heaven when one dies" but being delivered from trespasses and sin.....for being once dead...and now quickened to life. That is the grace that saved in my opinionation because one cannot make themselves alive. We needed intervention.

There is a def of eternal life ...

and that is to know God and Jesus whom He has sent. It's about an intimate "know" a relationship by learning how to keep His commandments, first by purifying oneself with the word of God. Therefore through the help of the Spirit to clean the inside [heart] so that the outside confirmed through deed represents what is inside.

And this we see in the chapter of John that when the commands are kept the father and the son will come to you.....John 14...
 
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corinth77777

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It does not matter what I believe... only what the Bible teaches.
And the Bible teaches that MANY people who think they are saved
Christians (the call Jesus their "Lord") are actually unsaved "tares"
sown by Satan.

Matthew 7:21-23
Matthew 25:1-13
Luke 13:23-30

The people REJECTED by Christ in those verses THOUGHT
they were saved... they called Jesus their "Lord"...
they were "Christians"

Thy were not Jews or Moslems or Atheists or Agnostics
or Humanists or Pagans or Satanists etc...

They were CHRISTIANS calling Jesus their "Lord"...
and yet Jesus denied ever knowing them. How can
that be if salvation is obtained by (how did YOU say it?)
they "accepted" Him as Savior.

The Bible is CRYSTAL clear in the verses above that MANY
people who "accepted" Jesus were NEVER SAVED.

Jim
My other opinionation is one can be in the kingdom but not "of" the kingdom...

So we know that the kingdom is at hand....
And there are those who believe, and as the parable goes get caught up in the world. And then those who hear and believe for awhile and they hear some other things and they too also fall away.....

So then it's possible ....just as one, hypothetically speaking, invited to your party to celebrate comes for the wrong reason.

He may be at your party but His heart is far from the celebration. Therefore He is in the house Party but not "of" the house party.
Like:
Matthew 15:8

This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
 
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corinth77777

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That's why I said look at Gal 2;16
They believed in Jesus [this one would say is when one is regenerated] in order to be Justified by the faith of Jesus.

So what is the faith of Jesus?....
Jesus surely believed the father to the point He put to death His flesh .

And Jesus came that He might destroy the works of the devil. And in my opinionation that means.....the more we learn to walk/live by the Spirit Given to us, the more you do not fullfill the lust of the flesh. [My thought for "might" is that its dependent on rather we walk by the gift that was given to us...and I wonder if that is the Spirit of Christ.
 
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"What is in vain is the new believers one thinks were made with them coming to Christ actually trusting in other things instead of Christ."

5thKingdom said:
What is vain is belief man can be saved following a synergistic gospel.
Anyone thinking they did something to be saved - are really following
the BROAD WAY that leads Christians into destruction. They are
shown in Matthew 7 and Matthew 25 and Luke 13.


Mat 7:21-23
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


But there is more CONTEXT provided in the Matthew 25 account
and the Luke 13 account. It is self delusion to pretend that these
three accounts need not be harmonized in order to understand the
CONTEXT of this event.


Mat 25:8-13
And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil [Holy Spirit];
for our lamps [our gospels] are gone out [do not save] But the
wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you:
but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

And while they [the foolish virgins representing the LAST TARES]
went to buy, the bridegroom came; [Christ Returned] and they
that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door
was shut.
Afterward came also the other [foolish] virgins, saying,
Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto
you, I know you not.
Watch therefore, for ye know neither the
day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.



BTW... before anyone can pretend to understand the CONTEXT
of these parables/prophecies he must understand they are talking
about the LAST "wheat" and the LAST "tares" who claim to be
Christian. This is clearly demonstrated in (a) the door was shut
and (b) the events occur (the wheat refused to preach to the tares)
and (c) DURING the time when the Lord Returns in Glory. That is
the CONTEXT of these verses.


Read the passage closely... there's no time in church history
when the Saints refuse to preach - and send people off to some
other (unnamed group) to find salvation AND these events occur
during the time when the Lord Returns. These events could not
represent Christians in 100AD or 500AD or 1000AD or 1500AD...
because the Lord did not Return at those times. Such a notion
would contradict the CONTEXT of the passage - making it false.


Luk 13:23
Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved?
[the CONTEXT is few following Christ not few pagans] And he said
unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto
you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. [the synergists]
When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath
shut to the door,
[again the CONTEXT is after salvation is finished...
these EVENTS could not happen until salvation was ENDED]
and ye
begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord,
open unto us [they believed they were saved and Jesus was Lord];
and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence
ye are:
Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy
presence, and thou hast taught in our streets [they looked like real
Christians - just like the "tares" in the church LOOK like the "wheat"]
.
But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart
from me, all ye workers of iniquity.


Harmonizing these three parallel passages teaches several things.
And if we cannot harmonize the TEXT... then we cannot pretend
to have found the Biblical Truth:


(1) First, the CONTEXT is those who claim to be Christian.
They called Jesus their Lord. They preached as Christians and
they ate and drank in HIS presence. This illustrates the "tares"
in the church - but not the "wheat" in the church. Moreover,
it is LIMITED to the LAST "wheat and tares" on earth... those
who are alive when the "door was shut" and when the Lord
actually Returns. The Matthew 25 account identifies these last
"wheat and tares" as being the "wise virgins" and "foolish virgins".


(2) Secondly, the CONTEXT is events AFTER the "door was shut"
and AFTER salvation was no longer possible. Obviously this shows
the context could not possibly be about "wheat and tares" in the
church, living hundreds or even thousands of years BEFORE the
time when salvation was finished and the "door was shut" and
BEFORE the time when the Lord Returns. So it CONTRADICTS
the TEXT to pretend this event should be applied to "Christians"
who lived hundreds or thousands of years BEFORE the salvation
was finished (see Rev 7:1-3) and BEFORE the "door was shut".


Since the CONTEXT of these prophecies is the "wheat and tares"
who call themselves Christian AND it is the LAST "Christians" living
on earth (living after salvation was finished and the "door was shut",
living on earth when the Lord Returns (not hundreds of years before)
we can then address WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE between these
two separate groups (the unsaved "tares" and the saved "wheat")?


The difference is that saved "wheat" do not preach false gospels...
but unsaved "tares" do preach heresy. There is nothing NEW here.
Throughout the entire "church age" (up to the "door is shut") there
are TWO MAJOR "gospels" taught by the "wheat and tares".


The first "gospel" is a synergistic gospel where men contribute to
their regeneration... this is the BROAD WAY that leads Christians
(not pagans) into destruction. The second (true) Gospel is the
monergistic Gospel that teaches God "chooses" or "elects" who
He will have mercy on - before the foundation of he world and it's
based on ONLY His good pleasure and NOT anything that man
would do during his lifetime... this is the narrow way that leads
to eternal life... and FEW "Christians" find it.


THAT is the difference between the BROAD WAY and narrow way
which the "wheat and tares" in the church follow. And it has always
been this way though the almost 2000 years of the Christian church.
Two different gospels are preached (synergism and monergism) and
only ONE of these gospel could be correct - the other is just heresy.


We could harmonize this reality with MANY verses saying some men
were NEVER MEANT to "be converted" or "have their sins forgiven"
... and verses promising unsaved "tares" would leave the church to
demonstrate they were never saved "wheat"... and verses showing
the unsaved "tares" in the church will show the "fruit" of preaching
heresies... but what has already been shown (above) is sufficient
to establish the CONTEXT and MEANING of these parallel passages.


BOTTOM LINE:
It is not possible to discern the MEANING of these verses unless/until
you first understand their CONTEXT... which is the LAST "wheat and tares"
calling themselves "Christian", when salvation is finished and the Lord Returns.


The TEXT cannot be applied to people who lived and died before salvation
is finished (the "door was shut") and before the Lord Appears in Glory.

The Bible does not show that believing what God reveals is doing something themselves for their salvation, believing is in contrast to doing works for salvation. There is the broad way going to destruction, but CONTEXT is not showing all your interpretations. Jesus Christ referenced himself, who the believers would follow, when he spoke of the narrow way. Those who do not repent are workers of iniquity. The true gospel is of Jesus Christ, the Lord we are to come to for atonement and restoration to God, Jesus Christ who made it possible is the way.


"It is about coming to the real faith with repentance, and life changes with that. Those that do not change with spiritual virtues growing are ones who do not have evidence showing that they are real believers, and likely they are not."

5thKingdom said:
Which gets back to the TWO QUESTIONS of the Gospel:


(1) Is the "real faith" you speak of described in the Synergistic
"gospel" taught in churches or the Monergistic Gospel of the church?
Both cannot be the True Gospel... or "real faith" as you stated.


(2) Does regeneration precede repentance... or is regeneration
the RESULT of man's actions to repent? One of those is the
Synergistic heresy and the other is the True Monergistic Gospel.


(3) Make no mistake, Matthew 7 and 25 and Luke 13 are talking
about people who sincerely believe they are saved Christians and
represent the "wheat and tares" in the church. And we can know
absolutely (from other verses) that only the "wheat" in the church
are saved... the "tares" in the church were sown by Satan and are
destined to the same fire as Satan [Mat 25:41] regardless of their
"feelings" or their "sincerity".


So, contrary to your post, good works or "feelings" are NOT
the "sign" of salvation. There are many Atheists and Secularists
that do good works - but are not even close to salvation... besides
the unsaved "tares" within the church, as described in Matthew 7
and Matthew 25 and Luke 13.


Those preaching a synergistic heresy are showing the "fruit"
of being unsaved [Gal 5:20]. I am not saying that EVERYONE
preaching the True monergistic Gospel is saved... but, at least,
they are not preaching the heresy of the BROAD WAY that leads
"Christians" to eternal destruction. At least they are preaching
the narrow way that leads to eternal life.

I explained what the faith is, and the faith is not defined by feelings. Repentance is not an action any initiate, it is a needed response, many scripture passages show this. It involves turning away from sin still, which God makes possible in believers who are in Christ. This is not about people who sincerely believe, as the belief this way is sincere enough. Sincere belief otherwise is not this.

Fruit that would be showing has love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control, Galatians 5, these are to grow.

"The whole world only has the opportunity for any to come to God and have salvation. Texts referring to the whole world can only mean that."

5thKingdom said:
Not only is that statement incorrect, it is easily proven wrong
by the words of Christ when He explained (many times) that
some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved. We have to
ignore or reject the Words of Christ to preach everyone in
the world had the "opportunity" to be saved.


(1) Jesus taught that some men were NEVER MEANT to "perceive"
or "understand" the Gospel and they were NEVER MEANT to ever
"be converted" or to "have their sins forgiven". [Mark 4:12]


Obviously, when some men were NEVER MEANT to "be converted"
or "have their sins forgiven"... that is absolute PROOF that the
True Gospel (of monergism) does NOT teach that all men
were intended (or capable) to have their sins forgiven.
You cannot be "saved" without forgiveness of sin.


(2) Secondly, we must accept it is not possible to understand
the MEANING of a passage when we cannot discern
the CONTEXT of that passage.


In Scripture,
OFTEN the word "world" represent both Jew and Gentile.
Remember that, before Jesus came God was only saving Jews.
After Jesus came God was saving both Jew and Gentile.
Jew + Gentile = "the world".


(3) Finally, we can see that HISTORY (reality) confirms that
some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved.


(a) Did those left off of Noah's Ark have the "opportunity"
to become saved? No, they were NEVER MEANT to be saved.


(b) Did the Gentiles living during the Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven"
have an "opportunity" to be saved - when God was ONLY saving
(with few exceptions) Jews and NO GENTILES? No, in the Jewish
Kingdom all the Gentiles on earth were NEVER MEANT to be saved.


(c) Did the people in Sodom have an "opportunity" to be saved?
When God promised to not destroy the city if there were only
10 "righteous" people (that's including thousands of children)
And yet they were NEVER INTENDED to be saved.


(d) During the church age, Jesus explained the church would
consist of saved "wheat" sown by God and destined to eternal
life AND unsaved "tares" sown by Satan and destined to the same
eternal fire as Satan. Clearly the "tares" (the children of Satan)
were NEVER MEANT to be saved.


(e) During the Great Tribulation the "wheat and tares" are called
the "wise virgins" and the "foolish virgins" [Mat 25:1-13].
Clearly the "foolish virgins were NEVER MEANT to be saved.


There are MANY other examples of people who were
NEVER MEANT to be saved... but the examples above are
sufficient to prove the false doctrine that ALL MEN have the
"opportunity" to be saved - is not part of the True Gospel.

What Mark 4:12, quoting scriptures, and other similar passages show are unrepentant who will not respond to God's grace revealed as people should do, Acts 17:30, those will not understand the things that believers are being led to understand. They lose the opportunity as God will give up on them. Such people are really on borrowed time here.
 
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