How narrow is the "narrow way"?

[5thKingdom]

It's the true Christians and the False Christians. The tares look like Christians but remain unchanged in the heart.

(1) I agree, Jesus taught the church would consist of saved "wheat"
sown by God and destined to eternal life AND unsaved "tares"
sown by Satan and destined to the same fire as Satan.


(2) I appreciate your response but you did not address my question,
which was WHAT is the "broad way" and WHAT is the "narrow way".


It is history (reality) that the church has taught two contradicting
"gospels" since the days of the Apostles. One being the synergistic
"gospel" and the other the monergistic Gospel. Only ONE can be the
TRUTH... or the narrow way that leads (real) Christians into eternal
life, the other is the BROAD WAY that leads the "tares" in the church
into eternal destruction.


Before you respond, I suggest you read post #335
to see some passages related to this question.


Jim

 

[Danthemailman]

So, WHERE does that "trust" you speak of originate?
Is it part of the synergistic "gospel" taught in churches
(the BROAD WAY) or is it part of the monergistic Gospel
taught in churches (the narrow way)? it cannot be both
as they are contradictory "gospels".

Jim

Are you asking me if we choose to believe the gospel? The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

 

[5thKingdom]

The whole world only has the opportunity for any to come to God and have salvation. Texts referring to the whole world can only mean that.

Not only is that statement incorrect, it is easily proven wrong
by the words of Christ when He explained (many times) that
some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved. We have to
ignore or reject the Words of Christ to preach everyone in
the world had the "opportunity" to be saved.


(1) Jesus taught that some men were NEVER MEANT to "perceive"
or "understand" the Gospel and they were NEVER MEANT to ever
"be converted" or to "have their sins forgiven". [Mark 4:12]


Obviously, when some men were NEVER MEANT to "be converted"
or "have their sins forgiven"... that is absolute PROOF that the
True Gospel (of monergism) does NOT teach that all men
were intended (or capable) to have their sins forgiven.
You cannot be "saved" without forgiveness of sin.


(2) Secondly, we must accept it is not possible to understand
the MEANING of a passage when we cannot discern
the CONTEXT of that passage.


In Scripture,
OFTEN the word "world" represent both Jew and Gentile.
Remember that, before Jesus came God was only saving Jews.
After Jesus came God was saving both Jew and Gentile.
Jew + Gentile = "the world".


(3) Finally, we can see that HISTORY (reality) confirms that
some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved.


(a) Did those left off of Noah's Ark have the "opportunity"
to become saved? No, they were NEVER MEANT to be saved.


(b) Did the Gentiles living during the Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven"
have an "opportunity" to be saved - when God was ONLY saving
(with few exceptions) Jews and NO GENTILES? No, in the Jewish
Kingdom all the Gentiles on earth were NEVER MEANT to be saved.


(c) Did the people in Sodom have an "opportunity" to be saved?
When God promised to not destroy the city if there were only
10 "righteous" people (that's including thousands of children)
And yet they were NEVER INTENDED to be saved.


(d) During the church age, Jesus explained the church would
consist of saved "wheat" sown by God and destined to eternal
life AND unsaved "tares" sown by Satan and destined to the same
eternal fire as Satan. Clearly the "tares" (the children of Satan)
were NEVER MEANT to be saved.


(e) During the Great Tribulation the "wheat and tares" are called
the "wise virgins" and the "foolish virgins" [Mat 25:1-13].
Clearly the "foolish virgins were NEVER MEANT to be saved.


There are MANY other examples of people who were
NEVER MEANT to be saved... but the examples above are
sufficient to prove the false doctrine that ALL MEN have the
"opportunity" to be saved - is not part of the True Gospel.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

Are you asking me if we choose to believe the gospel?

(1) No, I clearly asked you WHERE does the "trust" you speak of
come from?


(2) And I clearly asked you if this "trust" you speak of is
part of the synergistic gospels taught in the church or is it
part of the monergistic Gospel taught in the church?


--------------- Original question -----------------

So, WHERE does that "trust" you speak of originate?
Is it part of the synergistic "gospel" taught in churches
(the BROAD WAY) or is it part of the monergistic Gospel
taught in churches (the narrow way)? it cannot be both
since they are contradictory "gospels".

------------------------------------------------

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

First, your statement does not include the truth (reality) that
there are MANY false gospels taught in the church. But only ONE
True Gospel. You conflate that reality into the notion that all of
these different "gospels" are the True Gospel... when the BIBLE
declares those following heretical "gospels" are "accursed" and
not saved at all.


And that statement continues to IGNORE the original question:
WHERE does that saving "trust" (which you now called "belief")
actually come from?


In the church there are saved "wheat" and there are unsaved "tares"...
both claim to be saved - and both call Jesus their "Lord". This reality
must be addressed because (clearly) the "wheat and tares" both
LOOK like they have saving "trust" or "faith" or "belief".


Remember,
MANY are called ("called" by hearing the Christian gospel)
but FEW are chosen ("chosen" or "elected" to be saved)


So tell me... WHERE does saving "trust" (or "belief") come from?
And you cannot say "the gospel" unless you identify WHICH gospel
you are speaking of - a synergistic gospel taught by most churches
or the True Gospel of monergism, taught in few churches.


These are basic and essential doctrines we are talking about.
We are talking about WHAT the True Gospel teaches about
"trusting" or "believing" in the Atonement of Christ and even
WHO that Atonement saved.


Jim

 

[Danthemailman]

No, I clearly asked you WHERE does the "trust" you speak of come from?

It originates with God, yet our trust is not a passive trust. Although it is our responsibility to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) and we will be held accountable for refusing to believe the gospel (2 Corinthians 4:3,4) saving belief in Christ is not exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us (John 6:44) and enables us (John 6:65) we would not come to believe the gospel all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to believe the gospel. We must choose to believe the gospel. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God.

 

[5thKingdom]

Unless the Father draws us (John 6:44) and enables us (John 6:65) we would not come to believe the gospel all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to believe the gospel. We must choose to believe the gospel. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God.

But, after correctly citing John 6:44 and 65...
you then ignored (and contradicted) verses 37 and 39.
These verses teach that ALL MEN (not some men) the Father
draws "shall come" to Christ and He would lose NONE of them.


This is very different from your theory that men who the Father
"draws" to Christ WILL NOT come to Christ or be saved.
You make man sovereign in the process of "election".


Joh 6:37 ALL [not some, but ALL] that the Father GIVETH ME
SHALL COME to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise
cast out. [He loses NONE the Father gives Him]


You claim Jesus was wrong to say ALL the Father gives Him
SHALL COME to Him and be saved. Instead, you are saying
that SOME the Father gives Him will come to Him and SOME
the Father gives Him will NOT COME.


Who is correct here... Christ or you?


Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me,
that of ALL [not SOME] which he hath given me I should
lose nothing, [lose NONE/not some] but should raise it up
again at the last day.


Basically you are repeating the heresy of a synergistic "gospel"
that declares those God "chose" or "elected" who would be saved
before the foundation of the world - but MAN decides to accept
that "election" or OVERRULE the Will of God and NOT be "elect".


So, you are saying saving "trust" or "faith" or "belief"
BEGINS with God... but MAN decides whether that
the Grace will be accepted - or not. You are saying
that MAN decides if he will be "elect"... not God.


You are saying that SOME of the "elected" will NOT be saved.
But the Bible NEVER says such a thing. It says the opposite...
only the "elect" will be saved and ALL of the "elect" will be saved.


So you have (finally) answered my question of WHERE
saving "faith" comes from... you say it comes from MAN.
God "offers" it... but MAN must decide if they want it.


However the True Gospel (of monergism) is much different.
It declares that God "chose" or "elected" who He would save
before the foundation of the earth - based ONLY on His own
"good pleasure" (not on anything they would do in their life...
otherwise you have a heretical "works gospel") and God "draws"
each and every one of those "elect" (and not others) and each
and every one of those "sheep" come to Christ and are saved...
not even ONE of the "elect" will be lost... since the chosen "sheep"
hear the voice of the Shepard and they will not follow another.


So I thank you for finally answering my question of WHERE
saving "faith" or "belief" comes from... you say it comes from
GOD initially, but then MEN must decide to allow themselves to
be "given" to Christ. And you say SOME ELECT will not be saved.


Jim

 

[Danthemailman]

But, after correctly citing John 6:44 and 65...
you then ignored (and contradicted) verses 37 and 39.
These verses teach that ALL MEN (not some men) the Father
draws "shall come" to Christ and He would lose NONE of them.

This is very different from your theory that men who the Father
"draws" to Christ WILL NOT come to Christ or be saved.
You make man sovereign in the process of "election".

Joh 6:37 ALL [not some, but ALL] that the Father GIVETH ME
SHALL COME to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise
cast out. [He loses NONE the Father gives Him]

You claim Jesus was wrong to say ALL the Father gives Him
SHALL COME to Him and be saved. Instead, you are saying
that SOME the Father gives Him will come to Him and SOME
the Father gives Him will NOT COME.

Who is correct here... Christ or you?

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me,
that of ALL [not SOME] which he hath given me I should
lose nothing, [lose NONE not some] but should raise it up
again at the last day.

Basically you are repeating the heresy of a synergistic "gospel"
that declares those God "chose" or "elected" who would be saved before the foundation of the world - but MAN decides to accept
that "election" or OVERRULE the Will of God.

So, you are saying saving "trust" or "faith" or "belief"
BEGINS with God... but MAN decides whether that
Grace will be accepted - or not.

You are saying that SOME of the "elected" will NOT be saved.

So you have (finally) answered my question of WHERE
saving "faith" comes from... you say it comes from MAN.
God "offers" it... but MAN must decide if they want it.

However the True Gospel (of monergism) is much different.
It declares that God "chose" or "elected" who He would save
before the foundation of the earth - based ONLY on His own
"good pleasure" (not on anything they would do in their life...
otherwise you have a heretical "works gospel") and God "draws"
each and every one of those "elect" (and not others) and each
and every one of those "sheep" come to Christ and are saved...
not even ONE of the "elect" will be lost... since the chosen "sheep"
hear the voice of the Shepard and they will not follow another.

So I thank you for finally answering my question of WHERE
saving "faith" or "belief" comes from... you say it comes from
GOD initially, but then MEN must decide to allow themselves to
be "given" to Christ. And you say SOME ELECT will not be saved.

Jim

So are you saying that God fatalistically determines who will and won't be saved and man is completely passive in this matter? No free will or choice on man's part? Do you believe that if a person believes man must choose to believe the gospel, then that person is teaching a false gospel and won't be saved?

 

[5thKingdom]

So are you saying that God fatalistically determines who will and won't be saved and man is completely passive in this matter?

I am saying nothing.
The BIBLE says that (because of original sin) ALL MEN are born
spiritually dead and NO MAN will ever "seek God" [Rom 3:10-12]
(no, not even one) unless God FIRST "draws them".


Men are completely "passive" in the "election" process...
Men do not get to decide (before the foundation of the earth)
that they are part of the "elect"... and ONLY the "elect" are saved.


This is obvious because their "election" was before the world began.
If you are not "elected"... you can never become saved. And if you
WERE "elected" then God will save you (none of the sheep are lost)

No free will or choice on man's part?

Of course men have "free will" to chose to wear white socks
or black socks... but they are born SPIRITUALLY DEAD
slaves in Satan's Kingdom of Babylon.


The "free will" of spiritually dead men is to follow their sinful nature. Spiritually dead men WANT to sin, they sin of their own "free will".
So, yes, all men are born with "free will" but their "free will" is to
always oppose God (since they are slaves to Satan).


It is not until AFTER God "draws" the elect and regenerates them
(transferring them OUT of Satan's Kingdom) that men would or
COULD ever have the "free will" to follow God instead of Satan.


Remember, you said it yourself, NO MAN can come to Christ
unless the Father first "draws" them (since they belong to Satan).
And ALL MEN the Father draws "shall come" to Jesus and He will
lose NONE of them.


The Bible DOES NOT TEACH that men decided to be "elect"
(before the world began) or that any of the "elect" will be lost.
That is the essence of the True Gospel known as monergism.
That is the narrow way that leads the "elect" to eternal life.


The BROAD WAY that leads "Christians" into eternal destruction
is believing that MAN decides his own "election". That God
is not Sovereign and Autonomous in selecting WHO will
be part of "His Sheep".


In fact that is the REASON many of His disciples abandoned Jesus
when they realized He was teaching salvation by "election". They
did not WANT a salvation plan where God is Sovereign and Man is
passive. Instead, they wanted a salvation plan where MAN gets to
decide when/where/how he is saved [John 6:65-66]. Today we
have the same rejection of God's salvation plan because unsaved
men cannot accept that it is God who chose the "elect" to save.
They cannot accept a Sovereign and Autonomous God.


But you already acknowledged this reality. John 6 teaches
NO MAN can come to Christ unless the Father first "draws them"
ALL MEN the Father draws "shall come" to Christ and He will lose
NONE of those "elect" men.

Do you believe that if a person believes man must choose to believe the gospel, then that person is teaching a false gospel and won't be saved?

It does not matter what I believe or what you believe...
the only thing that matters is what the Scriptures teach.


The Bible is very clear that real saints (the elect) will not
follow false gospels. It is very clear that those following
a false gospel is "accursed" [Gal 1:8-9] and it's equally clear
those teaching the heresy of false gospels cannot enter into
the "Kingdom of God" [5:20-21]


And the Bible is very clear that anyone following a false gospel
is demonstrating (showing the "fruit") they are not part of
"His Sheep"... since His Sheep follow Him they will not
follow another.


Now, I am not saying a person following the heresy of a false
gospel cannot BECOME saved (that happens all the time). But
the "fruit" of having the indwelling Holy Spirit will lead them OUT
of their false doctrines (and false churches) and INTO Truth.
In other words, Saints do not preach heretical false gospels.


Just consider your own question for a moment:
The Bible COMMANDS the Saints to identify the unsaved "tares"
in the church by their "fruit"... which is not just their good/bad
behavior - but also their true/false doctrines.


The Bible COMMANDS the Saints to (a) identify unsaved men
by the "fruit" of their bad behavior or false gospels and (b) correct
those people who are teaching heresy - since some of them may
be "babes in Christ" and NEEDING much correction and (c) to then
EXPEL from the church all those who refuse to repent.


So... when you ask whether people teaching heresy (the Bible
calls them "false prophets" and "sheep in wolves clothing") are
showing the "fruit" of being unsaved... remember #a-c above
which all real Saints are COMMANDED to do.


The Bible answers your question in these (and many other)
passages. People are known by their "fruit" and that includes
both bad behavior and heretical doctrines.


There are TONS of non-Christians that show very good behavior
but the "fruit" of their heretical doctrines exposes them as being
part of Satan's Kingdom.


All of this is very basic and essential elements of the True Gospel.


Jim

 

[hedrick]

Let's look at John 6:37, and what's around it. The point being made here is not about free will or predestination. It's about Jesus' relationship with the Father. Just as Jesus says only what the Father gives him, people are given to him by the Father to save. This says nothing about why the Father gives the people he does to him. There's no reason to think that he does so arbitrarily. Indeed from the context as a whole it would be natural to conclude that the Father has given those who believe in Jesus to Jesus to save.

 

[5thKingdom]

Let's look at John 6:37, and what's around it..... This says nothing about why the Father gives the people he does to him. There's no reason to think that he does so arbitrarily.

Unfortunately you are CONFLATING two separate issues.


No, when we were looking at John 6 it was NOT in the context
of WHY the Father "elects" certain people, it was in the context
that ONLY the "elect" were "chosen" to be saved - and ALL of
the "elect" would be saved... Christ would lose NONE of them.


If we wanted to look for passages where the context was
about WHY the Father "elects" certain people we could look
at Eph 1:5 which informs us that God "predestinates" the elect
based ONLY on HIS GOOD PLEASURE... and NOT on anything
that person would do during their lifetime (Eph 2:9)


Or we could look at Romans 9 which informs us God CREATES
some men to be "vessels of honor" (saved) and God CREATES
some men to be "vessels of dishonor" (unsaved). God CREATES
some men to be "vessels of mercy" (saved) while God CREATES
some men to be "vessels of wrath" (unsaved).


I hope nobody thinks a "vessel of wrath" can suddenly become
one of the "elect" by generating some good work. They were
CREATED to be a "vessel of wrath" and that is exactly what
they will be. They were never "chosen" or "elected" to be saved.


Or we could take note of what JESUS taught [Mat 13]: that
the church consists of saved "wheat" sown by God and destined
to obtain eternal life AND unsaved "tares" sown by Satan and
destined to the same fire prepared for Satan. [Mat 25:41]


I hope nobody thinks an unsaved "tare" (sown by Satan)
can suddenly become one of the "elect" (sown by God)
by generating some good work... they were not "elected"
before the world began, they cannot become "elect" AFTER
the world was formed. The "children of God", the "sheep"
Christ came to "seek and save", were all "chosen" by God
based ONLY on HIS GOOD PLEASURE.


And let us not forget Jesus taught [Mk 4:12] some men were
NEVER MEANT to be saved. They were NEVER MEANT to
"perceive" or "understand" the Gospel - and they were also
NEVER MEANT to "be converted" or "have their sins forgiven".


Obviously when someone is NEVER MEANT to "be converted"
(from Satan's Kingdom to the Kingdom of God) and NEVER MEANT
to "have their sins forgiven" (by Christ's Atonement)... then they
were NEVER MEANT to be part of the "elect" or one of "His sheep".
They can never change that reality by generating some good work.


So... you simply CONFLATED the subject we were discussing
(HOW the "elect" are saved) with the separate subject of WHY
some men are "chosen" or "elected" by God. I hope this helps
clarify the DIFFERENCE between the two subjects for you and
I hope this helps you understand what the Bible teaches about
WHY God "chose" or "elected" some people (before the world
was formed) and He CREATED others who were NEVER MEANT
to be anything other than unsaved "vessels of wrath".


I understand that people do not LIKE to hear the Truth about
salvation by "election"... which is WHY many disciples abandoned
Jesus when He was teaching this reality [John 6:65-66] but our
"feelings" about God's salvation program change nothing.


And, in fact, the "elect" actually welcome and take great comfort
in the fact we were "chosen" before the world was formed and
the Grace given us was ONLY because of HIS GOOD PLEASURE.
Because if our salvation depended on something that we must do
then we would certainly mess it up... being born spiritually DEAD
and slaves in Satan's Kingdom.


Remember, both the OT and NT informs us that (before we
are regenerated) there are NONE that would "seek God"...
no, not even one.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

Indeed from the context as a whole it would be natural to conclude that the Father has given those who believe in Jesus to Jesus to save.

How in the world could the Father give Jesus those who believe
in Jesus - when Christ's "sheep" are "chosen" or "elected"
before the world was formed?


What you are saying is that God KNEW who would believe in Jesus
and THOSE are the people He "elected" to be saved.


That is a "gospel" that MEN initiate the salvation process by
doing some good work. And God KNEW they would do this
good work before the earth was formed so He "elected" them
NOT BASED ON HIS OWN GOOD PLEASURE, but based
entirely on their good works.


That (by definition) is a "works gospel" or a "boaster's gospel"
because all the saved people can then say to all the unsaved...
SEE YOU SHOULD HAVE DONE THE GOOD THING I DID.


Sorry... the Bible does not teach that men save themselves
by doing some good work. The Bible teaches (in both the OT
and NT) that until they are regenerated NO MAN will ever
"seek God"... no, not even one.


You cannot get more exclusive than "no, not even one".


Jim

 

[didaskalos]

I believe I am a born again Christian. I came to a point in my life where The Holy Spirit moved upon me, I recognized it, I acknowledged it, I was convicted of my sin BY the Holy Spirit, I was sorry, I desired to get to know this being - this person - this Holy Spirit, He accepted me, and I was born again. I went to bed that night full of fire and having a heart for God I never thought would come into my life in my dizziest daydreams. I felt so cool the next day at school because I personally had met the one true GOD almighty! I wondered who else around me possibly had this rebirth, and I had a yearning for everyone I knew to come to this same knowledge, to experience God personally in that way which would change their lives forever.

Regardless of my own testimony, how many Christians are actually going to find the narrow way? I wonder myself, "Am I walking along the path that Jesus himself calls the 'narrow way that leads into eternal life'?"

What about lukewarmness? Jesus said, I would rather you be hot or cold, for if you are lukewarm, I will spit you out of my mouth.

What about intentional sin? If I step on your toe and then apologize, and you say it's okay, but then I do it again, and you forgive me again, and I continue to do it because I know I can get away with it, what of the "narrow way" then?

1 Corinthians 6

(NLT) 9Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, 10or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. 11Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

What about born again Christians who continue to walk in some of these ways? Obviously the actions listed above are not in accordance to the "narrow way". I will be honest. I am guilty of at least one of these wrong doings. I know I ought to repent of it, maybe I struggle with it and maybe I have not yet been corrected of it. But when I do it, I know I am committing a wrong doing that is not in line with the "narrow way" which has led me to start this thread to seek out how all of this comes together.

1 Corinthians 3 Paul writes...

(NLT) 10Because of God’s grace to me, I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one we already have—Jesus Christ.

12Anyone who builds on that foundation may use a variety of materials—gold, silver, jewels, wood, hay, or straw. 13But on the judgment day, fire will reveal what kind of work each builder has done. The fire will show if a person’s work has any value. 14If the work survives, that builder will receive a reward. 15But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.

16Don’t you realize that all of you together are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God lives in you? 17God will destroy anyone who destroys this temple. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.

In verse 15 above, it says we will saved, but we will be like someone escaping through the flames. Could this be the consequence to our sin even after we have been born again? Is the "narrow way" simply BEING born again? Or is the narrow way being born again AND building with a "material" that survives the fire so that we are rewarded, like in verses 13 and 14 above?

The whole world only has the opportunity for any to come to God and have salvation. Texts referring to the whole world can only mean that. They do not all come to God and have salvation, and those many show they do not.

Romans 1:20-26 shows that though God provides for the possibility that any people can know something about God and then respond to God working in some way in their life to come to God, many do not and live in rebellion that God gives them up to.

There are those who do not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these, adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

See also Ephesians 5:5 and 1 Corinthians 3:17.

 

[didaskalos]

The "narrow way" passage in Matthew 7 is just about contrast. In Semitic style teaching, it is more about the fact that there is a contrast, a difference between the two, than what that specific difference is.
So the idea of this contrast goes from 7:13 on through to 7:27:
THERE ARE TWO GATES - vs. 13-14
THERE ARE TWO PROPHETS - vs. 15-20
THERE ARE TWO PROFESSIONS - vs. 21-23
THERE ARE TWO FOUNDATIONS - vs. 24-27

But your specific reference was to the two gates; so look at it this way.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ SALVATION AND THE TWO GATES
Matt 7:13-14

13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
NIV


Jesus’ statement is not really an invitation but rather a command to those who would enter the kingdom of heaven. “Enter” is an imperative; a warning that the narrow gate should be the choice because the other leads to destruction.

Remember that the intent of the sermon on the mount is contrast; between the righteousness of the scribes and the Pharisees and the righteousness needed to enter the kingdom.

There are 4 parts of this first metaphor, the gates:
There are 2 gates.
There are 2 “ways” or “roads”.
There are 2 destinations.
There are two groups of people making their choices.

Each “gate” is described and each gate leads to a “way” that leads to an destination that is “found” by a crowd.

The idea is that entering the gate then confines you to the road reserved just for that gate and, if you remain on that road, your destination is assured.
##################################################################
A little early interpretation:
WHAT DO THE GATES REPRESENT? The gates have the idea of entering; a decision. It is the first and most basic. Obviously the choice of “righteousness” or coming into a right relationship with God.
WHAT DO THE “WAYS” OR “ROADS” REPRESENT? The roads have the idea of the earthly life lived as a result of the choice of the gate. Once having decided which avenue to seek to become properly related to God, our life/lifestyle is the road we travel.
WHAT DO THE “DESTINATIONS” (LIFE/DESTRUCTION) REPRESENT? The end of that life and the eternity we enter.
WHAT DO THE TWO CROWDS REPRESENT? It is descriptive of those who make these choices.

So, having, made a pre-emptive interpretation, lets look at the details of the GATES, THE WAYS, THE DESTINATIONS AND THE CROWDS:
================================================================ A. THE WIDE GATE - Vs. 13 - “wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it”.

He will use three things to make the contrast:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. THE DESCRIPTION - . The word “wide” is the word for a broad pavement like a town square. The idea is that this has an ease of access or availability.
The road inside the gate is said to be “broad”. This is a different word but includes the idea of the road being “spacious”, an ease of movement.

This is the physical description. (It requires little of those who would enter.) It really implies at least 3 things:
*It is NOTICEABLE. When considering a gate to enter, this is an obvious choice, one that is readily available without searching. It implies that the “wideness” of it makes it noticeable.
*It is PLEASURABLE. It does not “constrict” you. It is not demanding and you have a “freedom” of movement. It is indulgent and permissive.
*IT IS NUMERICALLY ACCESSIBLE. That is, a number of people can go in at the same time. It is so easily available that “many” (gr. polloi’) abundant numbers go in. If we were to take a poll or determine by popularity, this is the way!
That is THE DESCRIPTION.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. THE DESTINATION - The word “destruction” is apo-lia’. It is descriptive NOT of annihilation but rather loss, total destitution.
Though the word is not used, we know, because of the comparative nature of this passage, that the opposite of eternal life is eternal death (separation); this means “hell”.
Those who choose the easy, less restrictive, more tolerable to the natural desires “gate” have only one promised destination.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3. THE DIVISION - the contrast between the “few” that take the narrow gate and the “many” that take the wide gate shows a definitive separation. There is no comparison or way to mistake the gates.


Prov 14:12
12 There is a way that seems right to a man,
but its end is the way to death.
ESV

There is a natural way of thinking that excludes any “God-consciousness” that considers only the physical and the carnal and the temporal. You need supernatural insight to make that choice.

Right away we see that
================================================================
B. THE NARROW GATE - Jesus statement in vs. 13 is to “Enter through the narrow gate”. He does not just say make a decision but there is only one right decision. He then describes this gate:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. THE DESCRIPTION - “small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it”.

The NIV uses the word “narrow” for the gate in vs. 13 but changes it to “small” in vs. 14 where it describes the “way” as narrow also.
The word used in both places regarding the gate is the same; it is rendered “strait” in the KJV. Not “straight” as linear and long but rather “strait” as “straitjacket”, that is the opposite of broad. It again describes the lack or difficulty of access.

The “way” is said to be “narrow”; again the opposite of “broad” or spacious and pictures less room for movement.

This is the physical description. (It requires more of those who would enter.) And, just as the implication for the “broad” gate, it really implies at least 3 things
:
*It is NOT NOTICEABLE. When considering a gate to enter, this is NOT the obvious choice, NOT readily available without searching. It implies that the”narrowness” of it makes it less apparent or obvious or noticeable from a carnal viewpoint.

*It is NOT “CARNALLY” PLEASURABLE (that is in a “sinful sense”). It “constricts” you. It is demanding and you have a less “freedom” of movement. It is not indulgent and not permissive.

*IT IS NUMERICALLY INACCESSIBLE. That is, a number of people CANNOT go in at the same time. This requires a personal determination; apart from any one else. It is not who you are in relationship to God among any church, family or group. (Who are you when you are alone in a dark room with regards to God?).
THE DESCRIPTION.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. THE DESTINATION - life. This is not the “bios”, the natural, heart-beating life but the “zoe”, the quality of life. The contrast is with “destruction”; so it is eternal life.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3. THE DIVISION - In contrast to the broad way, there are few that “find” the narrow way.

Is this, then, the idea of the failure to “find” it is because it is hidden from them, or they fail to recognize it when considered?

DOES GOD WANT PEOPLE TO MISS HEAVEN? No. The nature of man makes it very difficult to get past the “narrowness”. The requirements.

WHY ARE THERE ONLY TWO POSSIBILITIES? There are many wrong choices; all are “broad”. There is only one RIGHT choice; the Messiah.

Interesting that Jesus’ ministry will emphasize the solitary nature of eternal life access:

John 10:7-8
"I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep.
NIV

John 14:6-7
"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
NIV

A literal rendering of vs. 14 would be “few are those finding it!” It is the contrast with the “many” (gr. polloi’); the abundant numbers going into the broad gate. There a few that consider it when making the decision. It is “easier” and more appealing to take the wide gate, the broad road.

The draw of the sinful nature is strong. You have apparently made the right choice. Don't overthink it. Just live in gratitude for His wonderful grace!!

 

[corinth77777]

There is a exact CONTEXT to the BROAD WAY that leads "Christians"
into eternal torment and narrow way that leads (real) Christians into
eternal life. Moreover these two "gospels" (the synergistic heresy
and the True monergistic Gospel have ALWAYS been preached
within the Christian churches - even while the Apostles lived.


You can read post #335 to see some of this context. Remember,
we cannot hope to find the MEANING of any passage of Scripture
if we cannot discern the CONTEXT of that passage.


Jim

I don't understand. Forgot what the topic was..for cant remember when I responded to this post. BUT YOU ARE USING WORDS I never heard of. I AM A BASIC LAY PERSON.

BUT MY OPINION IS THE NARROW WAY IS Jesus. He is the model. And to live as He did I suppose would mean to work out our salvation. And to work out our salvation is at some point a spring into eternal life.

 

[corinth77777]

(1) I agree, Jesus taught the church would consist of saved "wheat"
sown by God and destined to eternal life AND unsaved "tares"
sown by Satan and destined to the same fire as Satan.


(2) I appreciate your response but you did not address my question,
which was WHAT is the "broad way" and WHAT is the "narrow way".


It is history (reality) that the church has taught two contradicting
"gospels" since the days of the Apostles. One being the synergistic
"gospel" and the other the monergistic Gospel. Only ONE can be the
TRUTH... or the narrow way that leads (real) Christians into eternal
life, the other is the BROAD WAY that leads the "tares" in the church
into eternal destruction.


Before you respond, I suggest you read post #335
to see some passages related to this question.


Jim

The Broad way in my opinion is you...
For one either loses His life to gain another. But if He chooses His life then? Then maybe the passage there is a way unto men that seems right but in there of is death.

 

[5thKingdom]

The "narrow way" passage in Matthew 7 is just about contrast.

Of course, you are correct. All related passages show a contrast.
The QUESTION is simple... a contrast of WHICH two groups?


Understanding the MEANING of Scripture means we FIRST
must understand the CONTEXT of that passage. Some suggest
Christ is contrasting people who are IN the church with people who
are OUTSIDE the church.


However the CONTEXT of these verses are the "wheat and tares"
within the church (notice... they are the people calling Jesus their
"Lord"). Discern CONTEXT first - or there is no chance of ever
understanding the MEANING of any passage.


So, what is the FULFILLMENT of the TWO WAYS that people
(following Christ) take to be saved?


(1) the first "way" is to follow a synergistic "Christian" heresy...
and MOST "Christians" (all the "tares" in the church) follow it.
This is the BROAD WAY that leads most "followers of Jesus"
("Christians") into eternal damnation.


REMEMBER: Galatians 5:20 PROMISES no heretic enters into
the "Kingdom of God". All those following a FALSE Gospel are
providing evidence ("fruit") of being unsaved "tares" in the church.


(2) the second "way" is to follow the True Monergistic Gospel...
and FEW "Christians" (only the "wheat" in the church) follow it.
This is the narrow way that leads "followers of Jesus"
(real "Christians") into eternal life.


The passage is NOT talking about Christians vs non-Christians...
Instead, it refers to the "wheat and tares" within the church.
The CONTEXT of passages below are "Christians" (followers
of Jesus - people calling Him their "Lord"... not Jews/Moslems/
Atheists/Agnostics/Humanists/Pagans/Satanists/etc.


MANY are called ["called" by the Christian Gospel]
FEW are chosen ["chosen" or "elected" to be saved]


(1) Read Matthew 7:21-23 about "followers of Jesus"
(2) Read Matthew 25:1-13 about "followers of Jesus"
(3) Read Luke 13:23-30 also about "followers of Jesus".


The CHURCH consists of BOTH "wheat and tares" [Mat 13]
The "wheat" follow the narrow way of the TRUE (monergistic)
Gospel, and the "tares" follow the HERESY of the BROAD WAY
of a synergistic "gospel".


This is HISTORY ("reality")... and FULFILLMENT of the "two ways"
that "followers of Jesus" (people calling Him "Lord") provide
"their testimony" (gospel) about the WAY to salvation.


Let me say that again...
This HISTORY ("reality") shows the FULFILLMENT of the "two ways"
and it is the DIFFERENCE between the unsaved "tares" in the church
(calling Jesus their "Lord") and the saved "wheat" in the church, also
calling Jesus their "Lord"... this is the actual context and contrast.
The MEANING of the passage must follow the context and contrast.


NO NEED TO SPECULATE ABOUT THE MEANING OF A PASSAGE
WHICH HAS ALREADY BEEN FULFILLED IN HISTORY (REALITY)


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

The Broad way in my opinion is you...
For one either loses His life to gain another. But if He chooses His life then? Then maybe the passage there is a way unto men that seems right but in there of is death.

Please see post #356 and provide SCRIPTURE to refute the CONTEXT
of these passages related to the "two ways". We cannot assume to
know the MEANING of a passage until we establish the CONTEXT.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

I don't understand. Forgot what the topic was..for cant remember when I responded to this post. BUT YOU ARE USING WORDS I never heard of. I AM A BASIC LAY PERSON.

BUT MY OPINION IS THE NARROW WAY IS Jesus. He is the model. And to live as He did I suppose would mean to work out our salvation. And to work out our salvation is at some point a spring into eternal life.

We need not worry about a person's "opinion" when the BIBLE
gives us the CONTEXT of the passage - and we see the actual
FULFILLMENT of that teaching in HISTORY ("reality")


In this case, the context is between two groups of people
calling Jesus their "Lord"... aka, two groups of "Christians".


If we do not know the difference between a synergistic "gospel"
and a monergistic Gospel... if we don't understand the difference
between the unsaved "tares" in the church and the saved "wheat"
in the church [Mat 13] then we cannot offer an "informed opinion"
on the MEANING of these passages contrasting those groups.


It really is as simple as that. We must FIRST understand the
CONTEXT of passages before we can hope to ever understand
their MEANING.


Jim

 

[corinth77777]

Of course, you are correct. All related passages show a contrast.
The QUESTION is simple... a contrast of WHICH two groups?

Understanding the MEANING of Scripture means we FIRST
must understand the CONTEXT of that passage. Some suggest
Christ is contrasting people who are IN the church with people who
are OUTSIDE the church.


However the CONTEXT of these verses are the "wheat and tares"
within the church (notice... they are the people calling Jesus their
"Lord"). Discern CONTEXT first - or there is no chance of ever
understanding the MEANING of any passage.


So, what is the FULFILLMENT of the TWO WAYS that people
(following Christ) take to be saved?


(1) the first "way" is to follow a synergistic "Christian" heresy...
and MOST "Christians" (all the "tares" in the church) follow it.
This is the BROAD WAY that leads most "followers of Jesus"
("Christians") into eternal damnation.


REMEMBER: Galatians 5:20 PROMISES no heretic enters into
the "Kingdom of God". All those following a FALSE Gospel are
providing evidence ("fruit") of being unsaved "tares" in the church.


(2) the second "way" is to follow the True Monergistic Gospel...
and FEW "Christians" (only the "wheat" in the church) follow it.
This is the narrow way that leads "followers of Jesus"
(real "Christians") into eternal life.


The passage is NOT talking about Christians vs non-Christians...
Instead, it refers to the "wheat and tares" within the church.
The CONTEXT of passages below are "Christians" (followers
of Jesus - people calling Him their "Lord"... not Jews/Moslems/
Atheists/Agnostics/Humanists/Pagans/Satanists/etc.


MANY are called ["called" by the Christian Gospel]
FEW are chosen ["chosen" or "elected" to be saved]


(1) Read Matthew 7:21-23 about "followers of Jesus"
(2) Read Matthew 25:1-13 about "followers of Jesus"
(3) Read Luke 13:23-30 also about "followers of Jesus".


The CHURCH consists of BOTH "wheat and tares" [Mat 13]
The "wheat" follow the narrow way of the TRUE (monergistic)
Gospel, and the "tares" follow the HERESY of the BROAD WAY
of a synergistic "gospel".


This is HISTORY ("reality")... and FULFILLMENT of the "two ways"
that "followers of Jesus" (people calling Him "Lord") provide
"their testimony" (gospel) about the WAY to salvation.


Let me say that again...
This HISTORY ("reality") shows the FULFILLMENT of the "two ways"
and it is the DIFFERENCE between the unsaved "tares" in the church
(calling Jesus their "Lord") and the saved "wheat" in the church, also
calling Jesus their "Lord"... this is the actual context and contrast.
The MEANING of the passage must follow the context and contrast.


NO NEED TO SPECULATE ABOUT THE MEANING OF A PASSAGE
WHICH HAS ALREADY BEEN FULFILLED IN HISTORY (REALITY)


Jim

Confused to what your point is and you have not explained your new vocabulary words for the lay person.

Just because a person says they are a Christian doesnt make them one.

There are people I suppose that are in the kingdom but not of the kingdom.

 

[corinth77777]

Confused to what your point is and you have not explained your new vocabulary words for the lay person.

Just because a person says they are a Christian doesnt make them one.

There are people I suppose that are in the kingdom but not of the kingdom.

I am sure I read the passage before ...
And my opinion still stands that the narrow way or path is the life of Jesus. And the broad way is our own way.
My reason for this opinion is based on the scriptures that states Jesus is the way- John 14;16
And He became the source of salvation
As stated in Hebrews.
And of course if He is the beginning and the end then one must be in Him to start.