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How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled

Amount of Matt 24 fulfilled

  • I view all of it fulfilled

  • I view it as mostly/partially fulfilled

  • I view it as none of it is fulfilled

  • I don't really know

  • Other [please explain]


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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by razeontherock Well as I read it, he seems to prefer a start date more like 328. At least I could almost make sense out of the end date, if I really stretched the imagination. But how could a start date of 54 possibly be defended?

Anyway this is so far off the clear intent of Scripture ...
He started at 1054 (the great schism) and counted backwards.

I forget what significance he has assigned to 54 AD. (Probably because there is none.)
Good point

http://www.christianforums.com/t6790703-34/#post43066817
Great Schism and effect on Christianity and Theology
 
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cupid dave

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Posted by cupid dave
The matter is not whether you personally denigrate the written report and perfer to ignore it because it supports exactly the conditions required in Matt 24 as part of the prophecy.

What is invaluable is a statement dictated to a known historian by the very man who ushered in the Christ kingdom that reigned for the 1000 years
razeontherock:

WHOA! Bolded word.

Past tense?


cupid dave:


Well, yes.

There was now competition in the Renaissance.
The total reign of Jesus was challenged.

The sole reign of Christ was gone as the rising paganism of the beast (that had been wounded by the conversion of the ancient Roman Empire's mandatory conversion to Jesus) grew stroner to this very Age now. .
 
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cupid dave

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Originally Posted by razeontherock Well as I read it, he seems to prefer a start date more like 328. At least I could almost make sense out of the end date, if I really stretched the imagination. But how could a start date of 54 possibly be defended?

Anyway this is so far off the clear intent of Scripture ...
Originally Posted by Huram Abi
He started at 1054 (the great schism) and counted backwards.

I forget what significance he has assigned to 54 AD. (Probably because there is none.)







Good point


The significance of 54AD is that was when the awaited Holy Comforter first appeared in the form of the Gospel of Matthew.
 
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cupid dave

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Well as I read it, he seems to prefer a start date more like 328. At least I could almost make sense out of the end date, if I really stretched the imagination. But how could a start date of 54 possibly be defended?

Anyway this is so far off the clear intent of Scripture ...


How so?

The ONLY way we can evaluate such u-interpretations is by looking for more support in fact andScripture.

What I hold to be the rule is that prophecy, de facto, implies some history to have come which will have demonstrated the claims to tell the future.

My intepretation does that.

Others may claim if we wait, some other interpretationj may be supported in accord with their interpretation.
That is rather lame by comparison.
 
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Huram Abi

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That wouldn't be significant even if you proved it, because Christianity started with Jesus' ministry, not the book of Matthew.

Not to mention that the dates most widely held as possible writing dates of the Gospel of Matthew are between 40 - 140 AD.


There is no pinning Mathew's gospel to 54 AD except by your wishful thinking to make it a perfectly rounded thousand years before the schism.

That's really not any resemblance to proper methodologies in scholarship, though.
 
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cupid dave

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There is no pinning Mathew's gospel to 54 AD except by your wishful thinking to make it a perfectly rounded thousand years before the schism.

That's really not any resemblance to proper methodologies in scholarship, though.


Using mathematical deduction as a scholarly approach to this matter of dating the first appearance of the Holy Comforter, the date 54AD is pretty much on target.

Gathering the earliests historical comments on the subject, and using the present criticisms of both the Catholics and the Protestants, 54AD averages out rather close and supports my comments.
 
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Huram Abi

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Using mathematical deduction as a scholarly approach to this matter of dating the first appearance of the Holy Comforter, the date 54AD is pretty much on target.

Gathering the earliests historical comments on the subject, and using the present criticisms of both the Catholics and the Protestants, 54AD averages out rather close and supports my comments.


Since you are claiming that your arrival at this conclusion is mathematical, show your work, please. :)


Here is what I assume you've done:

1054 AD - 1000 year reign = 54 AD.


If this is not the methodology you used, please show the steps you used in your arrival.

Also, there should be no "pretty much on target." It either is or it isn't.
 
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cupid dave

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Since you are claiming that your arrival at this conclusion is mathematical, show your work, please. :)


Here is what I assume you've done:

1054 AD - 1000 year reign = 54 AD.


If this is not the methodology you used, please show the steps you used in your arrival.

Also, there should be no "pretty much on target." It either is or it isn't.


1) I must admit that I first got the number 54AD from the preface to onr of my Bibles, which claimed that Matthew was written around 54AD.
It did not say this figure was cointraversial, and I never thought much about it.

It hardly seemed relavent at the time.

But when I read the passage rev 20:4 in the Theistic Evolution Bible it made sense that this was the actual case.

In debates like these, with you, on these threads, people did raise agruments similar to your own behavior.

For a while, I dismissed such quibbling as unimportant.

It seems very reasonable that this was the 1000 years of what historically can not be denied as one apostalic church.
So the 19 year difference from 35AD (crucifixion) thru 1054AD was too close to a 1000 years to take your type of criticism too seriously.

Even with that figure, 35AD, the 1000 years is so close as to be satisfactory in my opinion.

2) But then I read that Jesus said he had to go so the Holy Comforter could be sent.
Now that really intrigued me.

Since we know that Matthew says people need stay alert, and when they see the end coming, 70AD, be ready to flee, this Book of Matthew HAD to be between 35AD and BEFORE 70AD
(Why "warn" people when its already too late???).

The whole issue then is a matter of 35 years, 17.5 years being the mid-point in any of the two extremes.

To write The Book Matthew immediately after the crucifixion seems unreasonable.
So does assuming Matthew would have warned people to flee Jerusalem the same year or within a couple of years of the great destruction and impending diaspora.


So for argument sake, 35 AD + 17.5 year = 52.4AD.

3) Then I researched all the "Expert" opinions and arguments, eliminating those of 70AD and afterwards.
These are the ones I used:



Date and place of composition

Ancient ecclesiastical writers are at variance as to the date of the composition of the First Gospel.

Eusebius (in his Chronicle), Theophylact, and Euthymius Zigabenus are of opinion that the Gospel of Matthew was written eight years, and Nicephorus Callistus fifteen years, after Christ's Ascension--i.e. about A.D. 38-45.

According to Eusebius, Matthew wrote his Gospel in Hebrew when he left Palestine. Now, following a certain tradition (admittedly not too reliable), the Apostles separated twelve years after the Ascension, hence the Gospel would have been written about the year 40-42,…

Today, Catholic critics, in general, favour the years 40-45, although some (e.g. Patrizi) go back to 36-39 or (e.g. Aberle) to 37. Belser assigns 41-42; Conély, 40-50; Schafer, 50-51; Hug, Reuschl, Schanz, and Rose, 60-67

Protestant and Liberalistic critics also are greatly at variance as regards the time of the composition of the First Gospel.
Zahn sets the date about 61-66, and Godet about 60-66; Keim, Meyer, Holtzmann (in his earlier writings), Beyschlag, and Maclean, before 70, Bartiet about 68-69; W. Allen and Plummer, about 65-75;


When averaged out , these educated guesses equal 55.41AD as the date for the Book of Matthew.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/matthew.html

4) Since no one REALLY knows, de facto all these opposing arguments, I say God was right and accept 54AD making the prophecy Dead On correct.
 
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Huram Abi

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So you really don't have a legitimate reason to say that it was wriiten in 54 AD. Especially since 54 AD is not within the range of any of the alleged dates. The closest you get is 51 AD with Shafer.

Averaging out a set of ranges , you haven't shown your methodology, either. Not that it matters, since this is no proper way to establish the exact date, but I've seen your math skills, and, no offense, math is a very weak point for you.


And "God is right" implies that God said that 54 AD was the date. He didn't.

So, at best, the only reason you have to go on the 54 AD date is that you read it somewhere. Of course, your Theistic Bible website doesn't count, because you created it. And it really doesn't give credence to your case that you still continue to misrepresent yourself on that piont, but I really don't care to get into that right now.

The only way for you to move forward on your premise is to give the source from the preface of the bible you are talking about.

Even so, unless the writer in the preface gives an irrefutable case regarding how he arrived at that date, there is no legitimate reason to assume the Gospel was written then.


I could speak more to the fact that your association of "Comforter" has nothing to do with Matthew's Gospel, but that isn't necessary considering the entirety of what you are facing.
 
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Huram Abi

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There isn't an inference until we accept the premise that there is an inference.

That's circular logic, Cupid, and some bare assertions, as well.


Bottomline? You have no legitimate basis for saying that the gospel of Matthew is the start of the prophesied 1000 year reign or that you can pinpoint that start at 54 AD.


You have revealed that to be your true means of arriving at 54 AD by making the claim "the universal church lasted until the Great Schism of 1054AD." You've started at what you think is the end. It really comes back to you interpreting the Geat Schism as the end of a universal church (which there never was) and then counting backward until you reach 54 AD.

It really is a house of cards you've built.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by razeontherock
Posted by cupid dave The matter is not whether you personally denigrate the written report and perfer to ignore it because it supports exactly the conditions required in Matt 24 as part of the prophecy.
What is invaluable is a statement dictated to a known historian by the very man who ushered in the Christ kingdom that reigned for the 1000
years
razeontherock:
WHOA! Bolded word.
Past tense?
cupid dave:


Well, yes.

There was now competition in the Renaissance.
The total reign of Jesus was challenged.

The sole reign of Christ was gone as the rising paganism of the beast (that had been wounded by the conversion of the ancient Roman Empire's mandatory conversion to Jesus) grew stroner to this very Age now. .
Tis an awful long age
 
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ElijahW

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I voted partially. I think the Gospel has been heard by all the nations but I don't think we have seen the big disaster that shakes up society yet.

I think the prophecy we are currently stuck on is actually Matthew 12:42. Currently waiting on the Queen of the South to rise up.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I voted partially. I think the Gospel has been heard by all the nations but I don't think we have seen the big disaster that shakes up society yet.

I think the prophecy we are currently stuck on is actually Matthew 12:42. Currently waiting on the Queen of the South to rise up.
Don't forget the Ninevites :thumbsup:

Matt 12:42 `A Queen of the south shall be being aroused/egerqhsetai <1453> (5701) in the judging with theis generation and shall be condemning it/her.
That she came out of the ends of the land to hear the wisdom of Solomon and behold! more of Solomon here!

Matt 12:41 "Men, Ninevites shall be resurrecting/ana-sthsontai <450> (5698) in the judging with this generation and they shall be condemning her
That they reform into the proclamation of Jonah and behold! more of Jonah here".
 
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ElijahW

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I'm always hoping I'm going to see on the news, that those job openings are available. I do think the order is Queen, then the Men, like in Luke 11:31.

Come on ladies. The feminist revolution has done some great stuff but still waiting on that woman king woman king!
 
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cupid dave

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Originally Posted by razeontherock
Tis an awful long age


What do you mean,... 1000 years is a thousand years, right?

What we do know is that one Christianity grew and utimately was the only church permited by Law over all the western world for 1000 years.

We did not see that happen with Islam, for instance, which almost immediately divided into to denominations, Shiite and Sunni.

We also read that a distinct end to the 1000 year reign was marked by the Great Schism of Eastern Orthodoxy, then followed by the gradual appearance of twelve major mainstream denominational christian churches.

This happened coincidental to the re-appearance of the ancient world culture of Rome and Greece in a climatic social change called the Renaissance.

This Renaissance was fueled by a growing commerce internally in each of the European nations, as small town began to flourish and people left the farms to become Artisans and merchants.
Money re-appeared as a necessary medium of exchange.
 
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cupid dave

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I'm always hoping I'm going to see on the news, that those job openings are available. I do think the order is Queen, then the Men, like in Luke 11:31.

Come on ladies. The feminist revolution has done some great stuff but still waiting on that woman king woman king!


The Feminist Revolution was actually the mediator of the Sexual Revolution.

Essentially, the women fought to gain control of the sexual negotiations which traded their sexual favors for benefits in power, status, and economic participation.

Rush Limback is in hot water today for calling it what it is,... the acceptance of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] in general, a word which means a promiscuous woman.

The real trouble for ush is that once the term was derogatory ONLY bcause society destained that kind iof behavior.

Now, society promotes the behavior, encourages that behavior, and willing tolerates Welfare expense and broken famikies that raise up the barbarians with out nation.
 
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Huram Abi

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What do you mean,... 1000 years is a thousand years, right?

What we do know is that one Christianity grew and utimately was the only church permited by Law over all the western world for 1000 years.

We did not see that happen with Islam, for instance, which almost immediately divided into to denominations, Shiite and Sunni.

We also read that a distinct end to the 1000 year reign was marked by the Great Schism of Eastern Orthodoxy, then followed by the gradual appearance of twelve major mainstream denominational christian churches.

This happened coincidental to the re-appearance of the ancient world culture of Rome and Greece in a climatic social change called the Renaissance.

This Renaissance was fueled by a growing commerce internally in each of the European nations, as small town began to flourish and people left the farms to become Artisans and merchants.
Money re-appeared as a necessary medium of exchange.


Uh, no. Christianity wasn't allowed until the fourth century. That's only a 700 year reign, if we assume that the schism is relevant to the 1000 year reign.


Also, please take the remainder of the day to research the renaissance, which took place from the 14th to the 17th century.


Again, there are not 12 major denominational churches.


Your entire post makes absolutely no sense.
 
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cupid dave

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I voted partially. I think the Gospel has been heard by all the nations but I don't think we have seen the big disaster that shakes up society yet.

I think the prophecy we are currently stuck on is actually Matthew 12:42. Currently waiting on the Queen of the South to rise up.


What do you think it was like in ancient Rome when the power shifted to Christianity and every Jew and pagan in the secular community was FORCED to recognize a theocracy?

When this "big disaster" happened in Eygpt, when the effect of Moses changed Egypt to a monotheistic religion in 1352BC, it was like death:



Death of the Old:
The change was sudden. The shift probably took place between 1352 BC and 1338 (Assman, 214).
Temples were shut down, religious texts destroyed, and all practice of the old faith brought to a standstill.

In Ancient Egypt there was no concept of the separation of church and state; on the contrary, the church was a branch of the state, integrally tied into state business. In this political climate, the Pharaoh could reinvent church doctrine if he chose to, and Akhenaten did just that.

It is difficult to imagine quite what this would have done to the collective mind of the Egyptian populace, but it would most likely have taken the rug out from underneath them; religion for the masses is never quite the same as it is for the priests who administer it, but popular faith plays a basic role in daily life.
All of a sudden the truths and modes of thought to which the people had become accustomed were forbidden or destroyed.
The reaction of a people trying to come to terms with this loss of their entire psychological and theological foundation resembles the grief of those who are faced with the death of a family member.

Egyptian cultural life and the identity of an individual rested on state festivals, which Akhenaten prohibited as part of his eradication of the old faith. (Assman, 223)
This was the death of a fundamental way of life.
Akhenaten killed the old faith to bring about his new one, an example of an end joined with a beginning.

For the majority of Egyptians, the Age of Amarna was one of destruction, persecution, suppression, and godlessness of darkness by day, the formula used to refer to the experience of divine absence.

One can imagine confusion and mourning on a country-wide scale, for the death and plunging into darkness of the old way; it is cruel irony that this dark time was symbolized at the official level by the pre-eminence of sunlight in all aspects of life.
 
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