How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled

[Evergreen48]

It is not set up yet because God shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms,

Yes, his kingdom has been established. It is the 'kingdom of heaven' ; the spiritual kingdom which has replaced and subdued all other kingdoms and powers of this world.

Isa. 2:2. "And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations [the Gentiles] shall flow unto it." 3. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem." 4. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

But one must have spiritual eyes in order to see it and to be a part of it.

John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

John 3: 5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

John 18: 36. "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."

1Co 15:24. Then the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Matthew 28: 18. "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19.Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: "

Acts 1: 6. "When they [Jesus and his disciples - the apostles whom he had chosen] therefore were come together, they [his disciples] asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7. And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye SHALL be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

Matthew 24:14. "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; AND THEN SHALL THE END COME "

 

[Evergreen48]

So where is the Son of Man? Why is the sun still shining?
Yes, in Matthew 24:2 Jesus refers to the Temple, and that was destroyed in 70 AD. But Jesus went further than that. In Matthew 24:29 he says:
"Immediately after the anguish of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will give no light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken."

Did I miss the sun going out?

Jesus speaks in prohetic language here in this place, and in Prophetic language, great and notable disturbances upon earth which we find in prophecy are many times represented by changes in the heavens. For instance, the fall of Babylon is represented by the stars and constellations of heaven withdrawing their light, and the sun and moon being darkened. (See Isa. 13:9-10.) Also in Ezekiel 32:7-8 we meet with the same language where the destruction of Egypt is prophesied. The destruction of the Jews by Antiochus Epiphanes is represented by casting down some of the host of heaven, and the stars to the ground. (See Dan. 8: 10.).

 

[he-man]

Yes, his kingdom has been established. It is the 'kingdom of heaven' ; the spiritual kingdom which has replaced and subdued all other kingdoms and powers of this world.

I think you missed the major point:
Jas 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

Psa 37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Mat 5:5Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Oba 1:21 And saviours shall come upon mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S.

Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth, as in heaven.

Isa. 2:2. for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem." 4. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people:
But one must have spiritual eyes in order to see it and to be a part of it.

Indeed and here is Jesus coming to earth to show you with spiritual eyes:

Mr 13:26 And then they shall see with eyes wide open, the Son of man coming, in an aura with many powers and glory.

27 And then he shall send the angels, and he shall gather together his chosen from out of the four winds, from the tips of the earth unto the utmost of heaven.

]Mat 25:31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

John 18: 36. "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."

Which simply shows that his Kingdom will soon be of this world.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. .

Matthew Acts 1: 6. they [his disciples] asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? and ye SHALL be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

Matthew 24:14. "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; AND THEN SHALL THE END COME "

17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. [Where Jesus Died]

Job 39:30 Her young ones also suck up blood: and where the slain are, there is she.

Isa 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

Mr 13:29 Also, in this way, when you may see these things coming to pass, you know that he is near at the door.

 

[lucaspa]

Jesus speaks in prohetic language here in this place, and in Prophetic language, great and notable disturbances upon earth which we find in prophecy are many times represented by changes in the heavens. For instance, the fall of Babylon is represented by the stars and constellations of heaven withdrawing their light, and the sun and moon being darkened. (See Isa. 13:9-10.) Also in Ezekiel 32:7-8 we meet with the same language where the destruction of Egypt is prophesied. The destruction of the Jews by Antiochus Epiphanes is represented by casting down some of the host of heaven, and the stars to the ground. (See Dan. 8: 10.).

So you are saying we get to ignore this part of the prophecy? That these things don't have to come true before the prophecy is fulfilled?

If that is the case, then Jesus is only referring to the destruction of the Temple, but then, his disciples don't think so. They, and Paul, preached that Jesus would be back in their lifetimes.

 

[lucaspa]

Don't know. I wasn't back there then to witness it

Then how can you say the prophecy has been fulfilled? If you don't know it has been fulfilled, then what makes you say it has been? Do you usually give definite opinions on matters about which you have no knowledge?

Also, apparently no one else witnessed anything either, since no one mentions ever that the sun went out.

Luke 23:44 Was yet hour, sixth and darkness became over the whole Land til hour of ninth.

Reve 16:10 And the fifth messenger pours out the bowl of him upon the Throne of the beast and became the Kingdom of it having been darkened and they gnawed the tongues of them out of the misery.

Rev 16:8-10: Then the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, causing it to scorch everyone with its fire. Everyone was burned by this blast of heat, and they cursed the name of God, who had control over all these plagues. They did not repent of their sins and turn to God and give him glory. Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom was plunged into darkness. His subjects ground their teeth in anguish,"

If you are going to use the fifth angel as something that has already happened, then you have to use the 4th angel, too. When was everyone scorched by the sun? We won't even mention the first 3 angels and how those events haven't happened.

In terms of Luke, the sun didn't go out, did it? The darkness ended. How come none of the other gospels say anything about darkness? Matthew mentions an earthquake. Mark just says the curtain the Temple was torn in two. John doesn't mention any supernatural events; Jesus just dies.

LLOJ, it seems you are taking individual verses while ignoring anything that doesn't support your claim.

Also, Matthew 24 continues in verse 30:
"And then at last, the sign that the Son of Man is coming will appear in the heavens, and there will be deep mourning among all the peoples of the earth. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

So, where did "all the peoples of the earth" see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven? This is part of the prophecy. Before you can claim the prophecy to be fulfilled, doesn't this last part have to happen also? The gospel of John (at least) was written after the destruction of the Temple. The author was one of "all the peoples".

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LLOJ, it seems you are taking individual verses while ignoring anything that doesn't support your claim.

I noticed you haven't yet voted in the poll. When you do, then I will have a better idea where you stand on this.

 

[lucaspa]

I noticed you haven't yet voted in the poll. When you do, then I will have a better idea where you stand on this.

This isn't about where I personally stand. It's about why you stand where you do. I'm trying to follow your reasoning.

So where is the Son of Man?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

This isn't about where I personally stand. It's about why you stand where you do. I'm trying to follow your reasoning.

So where is the Son of Man?

I alread voted and explained my view.
I will respond to you once you have voted

 

[he-man]

Also, apparently no one else witnessed anything either, since no one mentions ever that the sun went out.

In terms of Luke, the sun didn't go out, did it? The darkness ended. How come none of the other gospels say anything about darkness? Matthew mentions an earthquake. Mark just says the curtain the Temple was torn in two. John doesn't mention any supernatural events; Jesus just dies.

Interesting that it is also backed up by other scripture when that will happen!

Isa 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Isa 52:7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!

Isa 60:19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.

 

[lucaspa]

I alread voted and explained my view.

You haven't really explained your view. Where you have tried, those explanations haven't made sense.

So now you have changed tactics and are ducking those explanations. You don't need my vote to explain your view.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You haven't really explained your view. Where you have tried, those explanations haven't made sense.

So now you have changed tactics and are ducking those explanations. You don't need my vote to explain your view.

Then I don't need to explain my view to a non-voter.
When ya vote, then we can proceed, as afterall, this is a POLL THREAD

 

[lucaspa]

Interesting that it is also backed up by other scripture when that will happen!

What do you think scriptures back up? We were discussing specifically darkness at Jesus' crucifixion. Luke said there was darkness for 3 hours. None of the other gospels backs this up.

Now, if you want to go to a torn curtain in the Temple, we have 3 gospels who mention this.

Isa 24:23

Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Please walk me through how you think this relates to "when that will happen" or the specific darkness at Jesus crucifixion. I don't see this.

Isaiah 24:1 sets the stage:
"Look! The LORD is about to destroy the earth and make it a vast wasteland. He devastates the surface of the earth and scatters the people. "

LLOJ is saying Matthew 24 has been fulfilled. Past tense. Are you saying this is a prophecy similar to Matthew 24? If so, when was the surface of the earth devastated? When was there no more wine?

Is God reigning in Jerusalem? Where exactly?

Isa 52:7

How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!

Again, please walk me thru how you think this relates. As I put this in context and read the entire chapter, I am struck by verses 4-6:
"This is what the Sovereign LORD says: "Long ago my people chose to live in Egypt. Now they are oppressed by Assyria. "What is this?" asks the LORD. "Why are my people enslaved again? Those who rule them shout in exultation. My name is blasphemed all day long. But I will reveal my name to my people, and they will come to know its power. Then at last they will recognize that I am the one who speaks to them."

Who is oppressed today by Assyria? I suspect you consider yourself one of the Lord's people. Are you enslaved? Are you ruled by Assyria?

Isa 60:19

The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.

In the context of my discussion with LLOJ, this says the sun will not be our light. It's not like Luke 24 where there was darkness and then light. Now the sun is out permanently and we get our physical light from the Lord.

Since the sun is still our light, if you are with LLOJ's position that Matthew 24 has been fulfilled, why are we still getting our light from the sun?

Again putting this in context and looking at the previous verse:
"Violence will disappear from your land; the desolation and destruction of war will end. Salvation will surround you like city walls, and praise will be on the lips of all who enter there. "

Violence is still happening, especially in Jerusalem. Again, if this is the same prophecy as Matthew 24 and it has been fulfilled, why is there still violence in Jerusalem?

Or are you making a claim that the prophecy in Matthew 24 is similar to the one in Isaiah. Or are you making the claim that Jesus is the fulfillment of the prophecy in Isaiah? Please clarify.

 

[lucaspa]

Then I don't need to explain my view to a non-voter.

Technically, you don't need to explain your view to anyone. However, you did start. And I was a non-voter when you did. So it's obvious that whether I voted in the poll or not was not a criterion then whether you would explain.

It's only a criterion now, it seems, because I questioned the adequacy of your "explanation".

When ya vote, then we can proceed, as afterall, this is a POLL THREAD

So where in the rules is it said that someone must vote in order for you to explain your position? If this were so important to you, why did you explain when I hadn't voted?

Don't you want the chance to convince someone who has not voted, so that, when I did, I would vote the position you hold?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Don't you want the chance to convince someone who has not voted, so that, when I did, I would vote the position you hold?

Why are you afraid to vote?
It matters not to me how you vote, but that you vote

 

[he-man]

What do you think scriptures back up?
Isaiah 24:1 sets the stage:
"Look! The LORD is about to destroy the earth and make it a vast wasteland. He devastates the surface of the earth and scatters the people. "

LLOJ is saying Matthew 24 has been fulfilled. Past tense. Are you saying this is a prophecy similar to Matthew 24? If so, when was the surface of the earth devastated? When was there no more wine?

Is God reigning in Jerusalem? Where exactly?

Or are you making the claim that Jesus is the fulfillment of the prophecy in Isaiah? Please clarify.

You just do not get it. All of those have yet to be fulfilled refuting Matthew 24 and any notion that they have already been fulfilled

 

[effervescenteye]

I speak as a lion in a vacuum, it seems.

 

[Zeena]

What do you think scriptures back up? We were discussing specifically darkness at Jesus' crucifixion. Luke said there was darkness for 3 hours. None of the other gospels backs this up.

Is the record in the Gospel of Luke in error then?

Now, if you want to go to a torn curtain in the Temple, we have 3 gospels who mention this.

Please walk me through how you think this relates to "when that will happen" or the specific darkness at Jesus crucifixion. I don't see this.

Isaiah 24:1 sets the stage:
"Look! The LORD is about to destroy the earth and make it a vast wasteland. He devastates the surface of the earth and scatters the people. "

Did the earth shake, were the Patriarchs scattered?

Is God reigning in Jerusalem? Where exactly?

Is Jerusalem above or below?

Gal 4:26
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Again, please walk me thru how you think this relates. As I put this in context and read the entire chapter, I am struck by verses 4-6:
"This is what the Sovereign LORD says: "Long ago my people chose to live in Egypt. Now they are oppressed by Assyria. "What is this?" asks the LORD. "Why are my people enslaved again? Those who rule them shout in exultation. My name is blasphemed all day long. But I will reveal my name to my people, and they will come to know its power. Then at last they will recognize that I am the one who speaks to them."

Who is oppressed today by Assyria? I suspect you consider yourself one of the Lord's people. Are you enslaved? Are you ruled by Assyria?

Do we require oil?

Assyria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(EG:Iran)

In the context of my discussion with LLOJ, this says the sun will not be our light. It's not like Luke 24 where there was darkness and then light. Now the sun is out permanently and we get our physical light from the Lord.

Since the sun is still our light, if you are with LLOJ's position that Matthew 24 has been fulfilled, why are we still getting our light from the sun?

Isa 9:2
The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

Acts 22:6
And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.

Rev 21:23
And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Again putting this in context and looking at the previous verse:
"Violence will disappear from your land; the desolation and destruction of war will end. Salvation will surround you like city walls, and praise will be on the lips of all who enter there. "

Violence is still happening, especially in Jerusalem. Again, if this is the same prophecy as Matthew 24 and it has been fulfilled, why is there still violence in Jerusalem?

Matt 11:12
And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

 

[lucaspa]

Why are you afraid to vote?
It matters not to me how you vote, but that you vote

LOL! Not fear. Just don't care about the subject enough to vote.

Look, I was curious as to how you thought Matthew 24 was fulfilled. If you don't want to explain further, then bye.

BTW, I think you now have a better appreciation for the power of the Socratic method and why it is used in teaching.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LOL! Not fear. Just don't care about the subject enough to vote.

Look, I was curious as to how you thought Matthew 24 was fulfilled. If you don't want to explain further, then bye.

BTW, I think you now have a better appreciation for the power of the Socratic method and why it is used in teaching.

Sorry to hear that. Thank you for posting your views. Bye

 

[lucaspa]

You just do not get it. All of those have yet to be fulfilled refuting Matthew 24 and any notion that they have already been fulfilled

Whoa! Calm down. Chill. It wasn't clear to me that this was your argument. From the context, I thought you were arguing in support of the position that Matthew 24 had been fulfilled. I thought it was obvious by my questions that I agree that the chapters from Isaiah would indicate that 1) those prophecies are not the same as Matthew 24 and 2) those prophecies in Isaiah have elements that have not been fulfilled if read literally.

Now, in their historical context, I need to check to see whether the Israelites were able to reconsitute the kingdom of Israel after the Assyrian conquest.