How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled

[Anto9us]

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.


This is something I brought up earlier in the thread -- that by 70 A.D. I don't see Christianity being HATED OF ALL NATIONS - I mean, really, did Russians hate all disciples for Jesus' names sake before 70 A.D. ? Did the Japanese hate all disciples for Jesus' name's sake before 70 A.D.? The Germans?

The "all nations" in Matthew is "softened somewhat" by the parallels in Luke and Mark - in those two versions this is seen more immediate and local - persecution of disciples IN THE SYNAGOGUES - disciples being brought forth before Kings and Rulers - as Paul was - we can definitely see all of that happenning before 70 A.D.


Luk 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute [you], delivering [you] up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.


Luk 21:13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.


　
Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.


Mar 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

　
And that last verse in Mark leads us back to a thought of WHEN do we say - when CAN we say - that the Gospel has been "published among all the nations"?

Some people point to this passage in Colossians to mean that even in Paul's time the Gospel had already been published "in all the world (1:6) - but again, really, seriously, historically - did the Japanese, Chinese, Germans, Russians KNOW ABOUT the Gospel in 60 A.D. when Paul was writing Colossians?


Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as [it is] in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as [it doth] also in you, since the day ye heard [of it], and knew the grace of God in truth:


I am trying to focus on "70 A.D." because everybody - regardless of eschatological position - SHOULD realize that a BUNCH OF STUFF in Matthew 24 happenned at that time - whether you call it "initial fulfillment", "partial fulfillment", "first fulfillment of a dual fulfillment" whatever ya call it - STUFF HAPPENNED in 70 A.D.

But I like to look at what happenned BEFORE and AFTER 70 A.D. relating to Prophecy

BEFORE - we have statements in Thessalonians that some of the Christians there THOUGHT THE DAY OF CHRIST HAD ALREADY OCCURRED -- notice "Day of Christ" -- the "whole ball of wax", not just did they think "oh - we have MISSED A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE!"

because Paul goes on to explain that

the DAY they thought they missed

would not come until Man of Sin be revealed - in other words Paul is talking PAST THE POINT of a PreTrib Rapture to refer to the DAY that some thought they had "missed"

In other of Paul's letters he speaks of Hymenaeus and Philetus as saying the resurrection has already happenned - and these 2 guys get dubbed as the first or earliest known "Full Preterists" - but Paul was writing BEFORE 70 A.D. - how can there BE any "Full Pretrism" before 70 A.D. as we know it anyway?

So - no - I have to conclude something other than a "pretrib rapture" was thought by some Thessalonians to have already occurred; something other than "Full Preterism" as we know it was taught by Hymenaeus and Philetus

Okay - and AFTER 70 A.D. - did 70 A.D, really "end the Jews"?

Was that the END of Judaism?

Hardly. We have the Bar Kokhba Revolt in 132-135 A.D. - when Romans were fightin Jews like mad - land battles - sea battles in ships - and then after THAT war Jerusalem REALLY got trodden down.

But, no, Jews didn't "cease to be" at 70 A.D. and still wanted getting land back and wanted to build yet another Temple after the 70 AD destruction - Bar Kokhba shows they are still having their "Zionist" movement in 132-135 A.D.

Who is a FULL PRETERIST anyway? It's the UT Forum, so I guess one can speak up if there IS one - but what in the world IS IT really, except saying EVEYTHING has been fulfilled?

WHO does THAT?

I mean, even the people who answered this poll saying "everything in Matthew 24 " has been fulfilled -- there are other prophecies besides Olivet discourse - and there is a book of Revelation that most scholars see as being written around 90-95 AD

Well, I first came to CF on 10th of July having just read BEFORE JERUSALEM FELL by Kenneth Gentry - a good case was made for an early date of Revelation's authorship -- I was gonna give "Partial Preterism" a hearing, ya know, there are things dubious to me about Dispensational PreTrib -

but for the life of me I see no reason to throw it out completely in favor of any partial preterism I see presented here at CF, and Amill as always can just mean "everything and nothing"

The historical fact is -- Bible scholars were seeing by the 1800's that a STATE OF ISRAEL was definitely going to be re-instated - AND IT HAPPENNED, PEOPLE!

Blackstone and Darby and others were sure - SURE - that a NATION OF ISRAEL would be re-instated - WAY BEFORE THERE WAS ANY happenings in the world to indicate that that would be so - writings way before Balfour Declaration or anything else that would tangibly lead to a belief that a State of Israel would exist again -

writers/Bible scholars were SURE OF IT - and they were RIGHT,

and I cannot totally dismiss Dispensational PreTrib
(despite some things uncomfortable about it)
for the amorphous, "anything can mean anything" view
or the

it's "all over or never comin"

choices of Pret or Amill

 

[Evergreen48]

" . . .. . . [snip]And that last verse in Mark leads us back to a thought of WHEN do we say - when CAN we say - that the Gospel has been "published among all the nations"?

Some people point to this passage in Colossians to mean that even in Paul's time the Gospel had already been published "in all the world (1:6) - but again, really, seriously, historically - did the Japanese, Chinese, Germans, Russians KNOW ABOUT the Gospel in 60 A.D. when Paul was writing Colossians? . . . .

"1. And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7.And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8. And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9. Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10. Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11. Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. 12.And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? 13. Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine."

 

[Anto9us]

men, out of every nation under heaven

OK - so the gospel has gone out to every nation -- and had not even been preached to any GENTILES at that point (Day of Pentecost)

that's confusing and my fonts are messed up

 

[Anto9us]

ok - if there were proselytes at Pentecost, Gentiles were included

cancel the great commission

gospel went out to all the world right at Pentecost

then the world ended

(we are not really here)

 

[Jack Terrence]

ok - if there were proselytes at Pentecost, Gentiles were included

cancel the great commission

gospel went out to all the world right at Pentecost

then the world ended

(we are not really here)

No! The world did not end. The AGE ended. Jesus said that the universal preaching of the gospel would usher in the end of the AGE, not the end of the world. An age represented a period of time. Jesus was speaking about the end of the Jewish dispensation.

The gospel had come into ALL the world,

5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, Colossians 1:5-6

The gospel had been preached to every creature under heaven,

23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:23

If the age did not come to and end, then Jesus was a false prophet.

 

[Evergreen48]

ok - if there were proselytes at Pentecost, Gentiles were included

cancel the great commission

gospel went out to all the world right at Pentecost

then the world ended

(we are not really here)

These men who had come to the Passover took the gospel back to their respective countries. It took time for the gospel to be spread among those people. Remember the mustard tree that started out as a tiny seed, and grew and grew into a massive tree that all the birds of the air came and lodged in its branches. Matthew 13:31.
There was still plenty of work to be done by the apostles in their own regions, so no, the end was not yet.

 

[Anto9us]

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


Since all nations were represented at Pentecost, the world then ended.

Game over.

It was nice knowin' yall.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


Since all nations were represented at Pentecost, the world then ended.

Game over.

It was nice knowin' yall.

Pentecost talks about JEWS from all nations, and not all nations of MEN.

Game over

 

[Evergreen48]

In other of Paul's letters he speaks of Hymenaeus and Philetus as saying the resurrection has already happenned - and these 2 guys get dubbed as the first or earliest known "Full Preterists" - but Paul was writing BEFORE 70 A.D. - how can there BE any "Full Pretrism" before 70 A.D. as we know it anyway?

Nothing is known about what Hymenaeus' and Philetus' claims other than they claimed that the resurrection had already occurred. But the point can here be made that even these men who were teaching the false doctrine that the resurrection had already occurred evidently did not believe that the resurrection would be a bodily one, else how could they themselves believe or expect anyone else to believe them, in the absense of any dead bodies having been resurrected among them?

Okay - and AFTER 70 A.D. - did 70 A.D, really "end the Jews"?

Was that the END of Judaism?

No, not the end of the Jews or Judaism but the end of the Jewish economy . . . . the end of Israel as a nation having their own system of laws. (The Roman rule under which they lived had allowed them to keep their economy and to practice their own system of laws, as long as they rendered unto Caesar what was due him and it did not interfere with the imperialistic reign of the Caesar.) The law was being taught, dispensed, and executed through the temple in Jerusalem. When this was destroyed in 70 A. D that all ended.

 

[Jack Terrence]

No, not the end of the Jews or Judaism but the end of the Jewish economy . . . . the end of Israel as a nation having their own system of laws. (The Roman rule under which they lived had allowed them to keep their economy and to practice their own system of laws, as long as they rendered unto Caesar what was due him and it did not interfere with the imperialistic reign of the Caesar.) The law was being taught, dispensed, and executed through the temple in Jerusalem. When this was destroyed in 70 A. D that all ended.

It was the end of the Jews too. Jesus said that their HOUSE (family) would be left desolate.

What needs to be understood is that modern Israel is not the Israel of scripture, they are not the descendants of Abraham. There is no race of Jews today! The Encyclopedia Britannica (Vol. 12, p. 1054) 1973 says, "The findings of physical anthropology show that, contrary to the popular view, there is no Jewish race."Jewish author, Camille Honig, editor of The Jewish Voice, wrote (Nov, 1953),"It is sheer nonsense, as well as unscientific, to speak of a Jewish race. Jews do not belong to a single homogeneous group."

This is acknowledged by historians of all stripes who know that the Ashkenaz Jews of today were, in fact, Gentiles in origin. Ashkenaz Jews, who comprise the vast majority of those calling themselves Jews today, trace their lineage back to Gomer, who in turn was descended from Japheth, the son of Noah (Genesis 10:3; 1 Chronicles 1:4f). However, the lineage of Abraham came through Noah's son Shem, not Japheth. This is incredibly important, and yet, is being essentially ignored by most Bible students today.

Thus, for modern prophecy teachers to proclaim that Israel remains the chosen people of God, is a falsehood, for Biblical Israel does not exist today. There is no nation of Israel, descended from Abraham, today.

But, it is not only wrong from a purely ethnic/racialperspective, to speak of the restoration of Israel today, it is also wrong from a Biblical perspective. The nation of Israel was never intended to be God's ultimate "People." He had something else in mind, something which even the nation of Israel typified. Yet, programs like Wings of Eagles, by claiming that Israel remains the chosen people, whom the modern church must support at all costs, are tacitly guilty of rejecting what God had in mind as the actual goal of Israel's destiny.

The idea of a restored Israel is a modern myth, for Biblical Israel, physically descended from Abraham, simply does not exist. She ceased to exist in A.D. 70. The "Jews" in Israel today are Ashkenaz, and are Gentiles by race. Even Jewish anthropologists admit that there is no ethnic race of Israel to day.


Are the Jews God's chosen people?

 

[Anto9us]

Strong's G3625 - oikoumenē

(world in Matthew 24:14)

1) the inhabited earth
a) the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in distinction from the lands of the barbarians
b) the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire
c) the whole inhabited earth, the world
d) the inhabitants of the earth, men
2) the universe, the world

　
Strong's G165 - aiōn

(world in Matthew 24:3)

1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age
　
Hey waitaminnit this game isn't over yet! Man, we might still be here!

Over in eschatology forum - someone says Hitler was the AntiChrist - and Battle of Armageddon started on 9/11!

(I am trying to find out :

1. 9/11 - what year?
and
2. who's winning so far?)
　
I wonder if there were any American Indians represented at Pentecost?
(Oh I forgot - Book of Mormon has them taken care of)

OK - so we're all still here - the world's still here - an age went by - everything's cool.

 

[Anto9us]

There were proselytes at Pentecost.

Whatever Hymenaeus and Philetus error was -- it is true they might not have been thinkin of a BODILY resurrection

but what about that weird verse that said "many came out of the tombs and were seen around Jerusalem?" -- happened right after Jesus' own resurrection...

what happened to that group of saints who busted outta their graves?

 

[Anto9us]

Jews had a couple years of INDEPENDENCE from the Romans under Bar Kokhba - circa 132-135 A.D. - trying to say their "economy" or their "dispensation" was over at 70 A.D. seems flaky to me

may as well say they were over with at the cross when the veil was rent

we know something major changed

but - look - there is this COUNTRY - they have a blue and white flag

they have been back in their land since 1948

fought wars against muslims trying to wipe 'em out

if they are not the DRY BONES of Ezekiel 37 - who was?

 

[Anto9us]

"I view it as mostly/partially fulfilled"

That CHOICE in the POLL is the BROADEST and covers the most bases -- it's the one I picked - I mean it is not hard to understand that it is the most popular choice -- but I wish it could have been SPLIT UP FURTHER

mostly fulfilled

and

partially fulfilled

by saying "mostly/partially"

it gives a lot of leeway to that choice

for those that said all has been fulfilled - I understand that light from the stars takes a long time to get here - but when did they GO OUT?

when did the sun and moon go out and the stars fall from heaven?

 

[Anto9us]

This is a popular thread - lotta CF'ers have voted - 24 % think this has already happened:


Mat 24:29 ¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: http://www.christianforums.com/stud.../lconc/30HYPERLINK/lcomm/30HYPERLINK/lcomm/30

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. http://www.christianforums.com/stud.../lconc/31HYPERLINK/lcomm/31HYPERLINK/lcomm/31

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


A QUARTER of you guys think THE STARS FELL FROM HEAVEN?

 

[Jack Terrence]

This is a popular thread - lotta CF'ers have voted - 24 % think this has already happened:

I noticed how you left out that only 14% say that none of it is fulfilled.

A QUARTER of you guys think THE STARS FELL FROM HEAVEN?

Correction: 41% say that it is mostly fulfilled. These are the Partial Preterists who take the falling of the stars figuratively with the 24%. This means that a total of 65% take it figuratively.

The falling of the stars from heaven represented the fall of kingdoms in the old testament. The same language is used of the fall of King Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom (Isaiah 14). Verse 4 says that the prophecy was given in figurative language.

"You will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon...."

Jesus was prophesying the fall of Israel. Most judgments upon nations were spoken of in terms of the stars falling from the skies. Do the research friend.

 

[Anto9us]

The 41% are NOT just "partial preterists" - I voted for that choice, as could anyone who was a PreMill or Amill who saw Matthew 24 as PARTIALLY fulfilled - I can't understand how anyone could NOT see it at least partially fulfilled.

No, and it doesn't mean that 65% take it FIGURATIVELY

This 41% choice can be a combination of literal/figurative, as well as partial prets, amills and premills

none of the choices even GET INTO "literal or figurative", unless someone chose OTHER and gave an explanation unseen - like "I take it all figuratively"

If a quarter of people think all of Matthew 24 happened and think the stars are figurative but the "not one stone left on another" is literal - than it's nothing but a GRAND CHERRY-PICKIN' FESTIVAL as to what's literal and what's figurative

 

[Jack Terrence]

The 41% are NOT just "partial preterists" - I voted for that choice, as could anyone who was a PreMill or Amill who saw Matthew 24 as PARTIALLY fulfilled - I can't understand how anyone could NOT see it at least partially fulfilled.

Okay, the question is worded "mostly/partially."

No, and it doesn't mean that 65% take it FIGURATIVELY

Since it says "mostly/partially" I will concede that it is less than 65%. However, it is MORE than 24% who take the falling of the stars figuratively.

This 41% choice can be a combination of literal/figurative, as well as partial prets, amills and premills

Correct. Therefore, it is significantly MORE than 24% who take some things figuratively.

f a quarter of people think all of Matthew 24 happened and think the stars are figurative but the "not one stone left on another" is literal - than it's nothing but a GRAND CHERRY-PICKIN' FESTIVAL as to what's literal and what's figurative

No! It is a matter of recognizing apocalyptic language. Was the moon literally turned into blood on Pentecost? Peter said that it was (but not literally).


The fall of Babylon was prophesied in apocalyptic language. Isaiah used the EXACT SAME language Jesus used. Isaiah says that the prophecy was given in the form of a "proverb" (mashal).

mashal, a pithy maxim, usually metaphorical nature, poem, parable, proverb (Strong's #4912)

Jesus foretold the fall of Capernaum in terms of falling from heaven (Luke 10:15).

If the falling of the stars is figurative, then the premise that Matthew 24 is completely fulfilled is reasonable. Is literalism all you've got?

You imply that Jesus is a false prophet. He said that the gospel would be preached into ALL nations. Then He said, "Then the end shall come." Paul said that it had gone out into "all the world," and that it had been preached to "every creature under heaven." Ergo....

 

[Anto9us]

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Did that happen too?

Figuratively, literally - did it happen at all?

 

[Jack Terrence]

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

It was the tribes of Israel that was meant. "Then shall all the tribes of the land (of Israel) mourn." In chapter 23 Jesus had just said that it was about Israel's house being made "desolate."

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Did that happen too?

Figuratively, literally - did it happen at all?

From Partial Preterist Gary DeMar's book Last Days Madness, pages 319-320:

The gathering of the elect is horizontal and earthly, not vertical and heavenly. Jesus wanted to "gather" the children of Israel "together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings" (Matthew 23:37). This is not a description of the rapture. God will "gather" those who embrace Him as the Messiah and "scatter" those who reject Him (21:44). This is done in terms of the call of the gospel....

A commentary on this use of the meaning of "gather" can be found in Jesus' encounter with the chief priests and Pharisees:

47 Therefore the chief priests and the Pharisees convened a council, and were saying, “What are we doing? For this man is performing many signs. 48 If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.” 49 But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all, 50 nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish.” 51 Now he did not say this on his own initiative, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but in order that He might also gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.

[The "angels" are the messengers of the gospel. The word "angelos" means "messenger."]