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How many are saved?

Discussion in 'Exploring Christianity' started by JohnClay, Jan 13, 2020.

  1. ChristopherHays

    ChristopherHays Member

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    Good point. The Bible is often unjustly punishing people for the crimes of their relations (sometimes separated by 500+ years) in a culture that accepts these moral atrocities, genocide is an almost unavoidable next step.
     
  2. Goodhuman

    Goodhuman New Member

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    How many humans can live in the new jerusalem? It is city with real size, defined in the bible.
     
  3. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    That I don't think we can really know the answer to your question. Although I agree with you that it's a real city with a "real size". Its dimensions as described to us, are what I would call "proportionally symbolic".

    Don't worry though; LOL. There will be plenty of room for everyone who will be there!

    :amen:
     
  4. ChristopherHays

    ChristopherHays Member

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    What Hebrew word? You quoted a made up nonsense word as if it had meaning in Hebrew. Maybe the mistranslated Hebrew word does mean ‘gods flag’ or whatever, it doesn’t matter. I don’t think you’re aquatinted enough with Hebrew to suggest the texts are mistranslated. You really think you know more than the experts behind literally every English translation I’ve seen? Not one translation says ‘kill boy animals not humans’ yet you say it’s implied in Hebrew... I don’t see it at all.




    You’ve called me “evil”, “wicked hearted”, “ignorant” and a host of other horribly insulting names... yet you just said you would kill babies if god wants revenge on their parents. This is disgusting. There’s nothing else I can say.
     
  5. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid Fire for the Earth! (Luke 12:49) Supporter

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    Then your morality is essentially lacking in any kind of inherent ethical value and impotent of prescriptive force and will be in need of arbitrary social force.

    For my part, without God in the picture, I can't see that anyone else--whether Christian or Atheist, or whatever--has the right to get in my face about my personal decisions in life, no matter what those decisions may be.

    So what does this mean? It means that if there's no God, I don't want to hear squat from any moral quarter. I want to hear nothing. In fact, if there is no god, I also want to hear nothing about Fraans de Waal-ian type moral countermeasures that may be applied (by some) to my behavior ... as I roll along my merry way !!!

    Moreover, if there is no God, I'd think, then, the Joker movie should be my favorite movie rather than some Marvel or Star Wars movie.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
  6. Hawkins

    Hawkins Member Supporter

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    What you listed here aren't linked to denominations directly. Denominations mainly refer to a deviation on knowledge of how some part of the Bible should be comprehended. They don't even have a firm link with the message of salvation either. Strictly denomination means a deviation in knowledge but not the message of salvation. A deviation in the message of salvation is called a heresy instead of a denomination.

    What you listed are a deviation in opinions, more often is not about an actual deviation in morality but instead how should the Scripture be defended in those topics, perhaps except for the topic of abortion which the Bible is impossible to mention about.
     
  7. Hawkins

    Hawkins Member Supporter

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    It is rather a prophecy on how the Canaanites are the cursed. They need to be wiped out for another moral reason. It's actually immoral to spare them from being wiped out.

    In the spiritual war between God and Satan, somehow the Canaanites are trained up to be the loyal followers of false gods such as Baal. Their loyalty is shown through their practice of children sacrifice. Satan's use of them is for them to contaminate the religion of the Jews, such that God won't be able to bring forward His salvation plan through the Jews to save today's humans.

    God's job is to have them eradicated to avoid a war between the weaker Jews and stronger Canaanites lasting for generations after generations with more death tolls on both sides, and more critically endangers the survival of the Jews themselves. It is thus a matter of removing the already dead Canaanites to clear the way for the Jews to carry forward salvation to today's humans. Or else, the Jews could have been wiped out and salvation wouldn't reach today's humans, which is immoral from God's perspective.

    The rule is, God only does the eradication of the Canaanites through His chosen people Israel. Ancient Israel is the only chosen people to do God's will for God to implement His salvation on earth. That's actually why Israel is referred to as the chosen people.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
  8. ChristopherHays

    ChristopherHays Member

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    So tomorrow if you realize that there’s no god, are you going to start killing, mugging, and raping people? My guess is no, because you don’t just refrain from those things because you’re afraid god will punish you... you refrain from them because it goes against your nature. Living in harmony with your species is part of what it means to be human.


    Btw the Joker was terrible lol. I much prefer Star Wars :D
     
  9. ChristopherHays

    ChristopherHays Member

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    The Bible actually does have some insight on abortion. I see it clearly as pro abortion in some cases. I don’t care what you call denominations. You call one heresy and they call you blasphemers. If you want to know what’s wrong with the 1st baptist church you need only ask the 2nd baptist church... the point is there are ‘Christians’ on both sides of every moral issue. Even amongst the same churches, Christians can’t agree on god’s moral code. You’d think if god was the root of all morality than he’d at least tell his followers what’s moral.
     
  10. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    I gave you the Stong's number for the Hebrew word so you can go look it up yourself.

    Your complaint was that the Hebrew word was a bastardized English translation out of German. I said that it doesn't matter what it was translated as; go look at the original word.

    The word:
    Now I can't take credit for making up that word. The writers of the King James "made up" that word.

    And so..... if it doesn't matter; why are you making a stink over it?

    Would the reference out of Blueletterbible.org or Biblehub.com help?

    Why was it only killing the male animals? I'd have to research that too. My guess would be that because Israel was told to bring the first born male of their flocks as a sacrifice; that that had something to do with killing the male animals.

    Again, you misquote me as you misquote Scripture.


    Which just like you're misquoting me; here's the example of where you misquoted the Scripture:

    Israel killing Amelak happened in the same generation as Amelak attacking Israel in the wilderness. The reconciliation between Jacob and Esau had happened "great, great, great.... grandfathers" ago.

    (Again, another obvious demonstration of your lack of knowledge of Scripture.)

    So this begs the question; what ever would possess a tribe of people who's forefathers made peace to attack those they'd made peace with? AND to do so at the point these people were in danger of dying in the desert due to dehydration?

    This would be like Britain gets hit with a massive category 5 hurricane. The storm is suddenly and miraculously deflected back into the ocean before it has wiped everyone off the islands; yet then the US sends squadrons of bombers and carpet bombs Britain..... Why? We'd been at peace for generations; why would we attack Britain. So in retaliation the British launch nuclear weapons at us. Thirty years later Canada invades and takes over the US. And "North America" becomes "North Canada" and "Mexico".

    Now explain to me how that makes any sense and why we wouldn't DESERVE to be nuked for a stupid move like that?

    And if I was the person in charge of making the decision to drop the nuke; would I do it if God directly told me to? Yes I would.

    Now do I believe that in this course of history (where we are in God's redemptive plan) that God would directly tell me to nuke another country; no I don't.

    Why did God tell Israel in the case of Amelak to wipe everyone out; when clearly that was not the normal rules of engagement?

    They didn't kill all the Midianites.

    We also see that they did not kill the people who surrendered. We see this evidenced by the fact that Uriah and Bathsheba in the days of King David were a foreign couple. They weren't separated as a couple by a "government dictated policy". (David's sin was on his own head.) They weren't slaves. They weren't denied rights, or denied housing, or wages Uriah would have received as a member of Israel's army. With exception of David's own sin; Uriah and Bathsheba were treated fairly.

    Rahab the harlot and her family were treated fairly (They'd surrendered when Jericho was sieged.)

    Ruth, who was from Moab was treated fairly. Boas married Ruth as the "kinsmen redeemer" to Naomi, even though he had no tribal obligation to Ruth because she was not a Hebrew.

    So why was all of Amalek killed?

    Genesis 15:16 gives us a clue. When the sin of a nation becomes "full" then it's destruction befalls it. This has happened with countless nations; including Israel! All the Jews who had not converted to Christianity and left the area like Jesus had warned them would happen; were destroyed by the Roman army. EVERYONE - man woman and child!

    Yet God is not slack to warn people that the destruction is coming if they don't repent!

    Now when God decides a people's iniquity is full and their destruction is imminent; is upon His prerogative. I will not presume upon God's decision making processes that I know better than He does as to when judgement should befall a nation. (My own included.)

    Noah's flood wiped out EVERY land based life form that was not in the ark.

    That's quite a statement about God's power to execute the decisions He makes. I'm not going to argue with Him. I'm not God.

    There's nothing else you SHOULD say! Like Job; place your hand over your mouth and shut up.

    This principle is only "disgusting" to you because you want to believe you are more righteous then God.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
  11. Hawkins

    Hawkins Member Supporter

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    Again, it's your mistake to adapt your own definition of denomination instead doing more speculation on what it is.

    God's moral code is embedded in everyone's spirit, regardless if you are a Christian or not. Individual deviations may come from various ways. Morality is analogue to a pizza. The bread part is common to everyone which is granted from God. Everyone may have different toppings due to various reasons such as influence from society or parents or culture and etc.

    From what I can see, you misunderstood what moral code is as well as what denomination is. Moreover as I said in my last post, you also failed to speculate whether an issue is about the defending of the Scripture or is it an actual deviation in morality.
     
  12. ChristopherHays

    ChristopherHays Member

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    It’s scary how easily you all support genocide. Don’t you think this could’ve been avoided if god Wanted to? He could’ve not cursed them to start with? What if god didn’t allow satan mess with them? God can do all things, but killing babies was unavoidable? Child sacrifice isn’t even that bad according to god. He demanded it of Abraham and, Himself sacrificed a son.
     
  13. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    Interesting analogy you've presented here. I'd have to give this one a little thought. Intriguing!
     
  14. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid Fire for the Earth! (Luke 12:49) Supporter

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    Should it go without saying that killing, mugging, and raping people are not the ONLY 'bad' things a person can do?

    To whatever extent I may refrain from doing some action that will be labelled as socially disruptive and only fitting for a miscreant, it would be most accurate, and truthful, for me to admit to you that there are some things I don't do simply because I don't have a taste for those kinds of activities, but other activities I really do have to try very hard to refrain from doing. The Good News should be that I don't do some questionable activities simply because I think there is a God, specifically of the Jesus type.

    Another reason that I don't do some things is simply for the additional fact that other people will gang up on me to stop my behavior. However, this honestly doesn't really offer me a major incentive to not do this or that ... just so you know. Nor does it give me a compelling reason to think some things are indeed inherently wrong, just because "they think so!" :dontcare:

    I don't know that The Joker movie was terrible. Was it? o_O
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
  15. Hawkins

    Hawkins Member Supporter

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    You failed to speculate the difference between God's morality and men's morality.

    Things are resulted by freewill (another topic though). Do you think God should kill less humans in order for more people to stay in hell? If that's your morality then it's you who have a moral issue.
     
  16. ChristopherHays

    ChristopherHays Member

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    you don’t know your history. This is exactly why I made a big deal of your “jehovahnisi” translation. You’re appealing to knowledge you don’t have to explain away this genocide. If you really knew your history or your Hebrew, you’d know “jehovahnisi” can’t possibly make sense with Hebrew phonetics. You’d also never say something like

    “Israel killing Amelak happened in the same generation as Amelak attacking Israel in the wilderness.”

    You should know that the Amalekites were wiped out roughly 400 years later by king Saul!
     
  17. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    I already told you. I did not make up the word "Jehovahnissi". That comes out of the King James.

    BibleGateway - Keyword Search: Jehovahnissi

    You're right. I stand corrected here. I confused two different passages. (Not sure how I did that; but you are correct I did it! I will readily admit when I make a mistake.)

    (Now we sit back and see if you will admit where you are wrong? I won't hold my breath on that one - I promise! LOL)

    Israel apparently did wipe out Amelak's army at the time of the initial confrontation. Yet, why does this span in passing years negate what I quoted in Genesis about nations filling up their time of appointed wrath?

    This is the explanation SCRIPTURE gives you as to why this happened at the time it did.

    So why such an extended period of time?

    Well, people don't usually die at the hand of every single sin they commit either. (Sometimes the consequence for sin is immediate. Thief breaks into house and home owner shoots them dead.) One may die at 90 years old and face judgement for sins committed in a war that happened 70 years earlier.

    Fact of the matter still remains; we are all still guilty of sin.

    Yet who's to say the infants killed of Amelak in the days of Saul were eternally lost either? (Or even that all the adults were eternally lost?) What comes down as judgement "en-mass" does not necessarily determine one's eternal fate.

    As I've heard it said in the military: Kill them all and let God sort them out. (Not that I agree morally with that logic; but I understand where it comes from.)

    Matter of fact there's a passage in Acts 17 that speaks about this:

    22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.

    23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

    24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

    25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

    26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

    27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

    28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

    29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

    30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

    31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
  18. ChristopherHays

    ChristopherHays Member

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    So gods moral code is embedded in our spirit weather we know it or not? How can you explain sociopaths? They’re estimated to be about 3% of the population. Did god just mess up when he put their moral code in, or did god intentionally make them so they can mess things up? These people are like this from birth because of our imperfect evolutionary history.
     
  19. ChristopherHays

    ChristopherHays Member

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    What kind of immoral thing could you do that doesn’t disrupt society? I would argue that everything immoral is necessarily harmful to society.
     
  20. ChristopherHays

    ChristopherHays Member

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    I think god should kill less humans and put no one in hell. A true loving, forgiving, and good god wouldn’t do either.
     
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