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How many are saved?

Discussion in 'Exploring Christianity' started by JohnClay, Jan 13, 2020.

  1. ChristopherHays

    ChristopherHays Member

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    “(If gene editing is even possible)” it’s not only possible, it’s already happened. I’m not going to debate the details because neither of us are qualified.

    “if she is guilty, it is her own sin that has caused this, not God.“

    So you’re completely against abortion, but you think it’s acceptable for god to kill unborn babies to punish their mothers? I’m not mad at god, I’m upset by the hypocrisy of Christianity! You all claim to be morally superior, but genocide, slavery, abortion, murder, rape are all acceptable when god commands it! Don’t you think those babies are just as innocent as other babies? Would you think it’s acceptable for babies born out of wedlock to be killed today?
     
  2. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    Your a hypocrite yourself! You would kill embryos to save someone else "for the greater good"; yet you get mad at God for either allowing (or even commanding) to kill people (also for a greater good); but because you don't see what that greater good is - it's suddenly immoral when God does it?

    NO ONE is innocent outside of Christ; when speaking in terms of committing sin.

    We are all either punished for our own sin; or Christ was punished for us!

    And I went over every single one of these verses you claimed supported all your accusations against God.

    So not only are you a hypocrite; you're a liar (because you claim these verses say things they don't).

    So stop WHINING about suffering on this planet. There's no reason you or anyone else should be exempt from it!
     
  3. ChristopherHays

    ChristopherHays Member

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    Your a hypocrite yourself! You would kill embryos to save someone else "for the greater good"; yet you get mad at God for either allowing (or even commanding) to kill people (also for a greater good); but because you don't see what that greater good is - it's suddenly immoral when God does it?”

    I never said I would kill embryos, I said I wouldn’t want to make that choice. What greater good could possibly come from killing those babies in the Bible? I’m not going to “take it on faith” that killing babies is somehow good in the long run. That is an extraordinary claim that absolutely needs a satisfying answer before anyone should accept it. What greater good was done by aborting bastards and killing Canaanite infants?


    NO ONE is innocent outside of Christ; when speaking in terms of committing sin.”

    What sin has a baby committed? I know the answer is “original sin” but that’s another immoral teaching in my perspective. Babies and especially unborn babies couldn’t possibly be guilty of anything.



    We are all either punished for our own sin; or Christ was punished for us!”


    It’s not about weather the mother deserves to be punished though. My objection is to killing innocent babies for the crimes of its mother. The mothers guilt or innocence doesn’t relate to my objection... The whole Christian religion is founded on the idea that guilty people can be transfer their guilt to something innocent (Jesus, sacrificial lambs etc.) This itself is immoral. Punishing someone innocent is not ever acceptable. No judge in the civilized world would ever let a criminal go free if someone else served the jail sentence.



    “And I went over every single one of these verses you claimed supported all your accusations against God.
    So not only are you a hypocrite; you're a liar (because you claim these verses say things they don't).”


    I quoted the verses. They speak for themselves. Maybe if all 40,000 Christian denominations could agree on something it would be easier to know what the book actually says. Until then, I’ll read it myself, and from my perspective it clearly advocates genocide, abortion, slavery, rape, and murder. I don’t think you’re objections were compelling.


    So stop WHINING about suffering on this planet. There's no reason you or anyone else should be exempt from it!”


    I’m not whining and that’s very insulting to people who are suffering. This will be my last response in this thread. Hope you and your son have a great new year :)
     
  4. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    You contradict this statement in the statements you make below.

    Of course it's not moral!

    (And ye who are of such moral superiority to God and any of us "hypocritical Christians" can't see that?)

    :scratch::scratch::scratch:

    So if a greater good comes out of killing these embryos than that's OK. That is what you are saying here! It's OK for you to decide if it's a greater good; but it's not OK for God to decide if it's for a greater good? That's hypocrisy!

    Just because you don't know what the outcome is of the people that God allows (or may even actively kill) does not mean the choices you'd make are more moral than His. You are not omniscient!

    Again, passage taken out of context. It is the sin of the individual that has caused the death of the child. If she's innocent the child lives and then the onus bounces back onto the husband's head. Was he honestly mistaken? Is he lying? Is he really the one committing adultery? (If he is; then he gets put to death!)

    And what happens to that child in the afterlife? Your opinion is awfully short sighted here!

    And I gave you a satisfactory answer. You just refuse to accept it because you're mad at God for things that have happened in your life.

    I already quoted to you from Acts 17 that God does not hold someone accountable for something they have no knowledge of. What knowledge would this miscarried child have? Not enough knowledge to commit deliberate sin.

    Which this gets into questions of how does the atonement work and who's sin did Jesus actually pay for? His death did cover freeing the creation from the consequence of man's sin. Scripture does say that animals actually can "sin". It also says the land can "sin". (How does land sin?) The creature is not held accountable for sin though because it's not created in God's image.

    Infants obviously don't have the cognitive and reasoning capacity that an adult has. Acts 17 says that if there is no knowledge there is no accountability. (That's also in Romans.) So infants who have no cognitive ability to know if they commit or don't commit sin; are like the rest of creation. They are not held accountable for something they have not the cognitive capacity to understand. That is fair and that is just!

    Yet I explain this to you and you still rail against God?

    Why? (Because of the evil in your own heart!)

    I would not use the term "original sin"; because what is inherited from Adam isn't actually guilt of his sin; it's the potential to be corrupted because of living in a fallen world. We inherit from Adam a fallen nature; which means eventually (given the capacity to grow up) we will and do sin.

    Once we have the capacity to understand moral obligation we become accountable for our disobedience. That's a gradient of stages. How accountable is a two year old, compared to a 5 year old, compared to a 12 year old, compared to a 30 year old? I'm not even going to pretend I know the answer to that question because I'm not omniscient! That is why I leave the decision making process up to God! I can observe that the capacity to understand varies with the individual. Some kids "get it" earlier than others. Some kids only "partially get it" because of some neurological issue.

    On top of this, cognitive capacity does not answer what's known of the soul. Conscience is a whole other aspect of our existence. I know people who are intellectually disabled who are more moral than geniuses. Again, I'm not omniscient and would never claim to know who is actually condemned for their sin and who isn't! Who's sin is atoned for and who's isn't. What someone understands in their conscience may be very different than what they can externally articulate. God knows though, because He's omniscient.

    Which this brings me back to your statements here:

    How do you know the person you destroyed to "allegedly" save the other would not have been the one who invented his neighbor's cure?

    YOU DON'T!

    And here is where your own evil intent is exposed. You make that choice of taking a life not knowing and rail against God when He takes life and HE KNOWS WHAT THEIR OUTCOME WOULD HAVE BEEN; BECAUSE HE IS OMNISCIENT!

    YOU ARE NOT!

    You misquoted the verses. I explained them; gave you the context and you refused to have the humility to admit that you were wrong.

    Why? Because you hate God and you don't want to be accountable to Him.

    Guess what - you still are accountable to God!

    You "believe" in evolution; yet there is not 100% consensus among the adherents to that belief system as to what all the terms mean either. Yet you CHOOSE to believe that? Why? You hold evolution to one standard and the Bible to another?

    Again, that is hypocrisy!

    And here is another way I know the Bible is true! It causes someone like you; who claims they don't even believe in it, to get on a forum like this to debate its validity. If the Scripture was only written by man; why would it be banned in 52 countries? No country bans Cinderella or the 3 Bears.

    If this book is a fairy tale - why is it so dangerous?

    Can't conceive of the possibility that your perspective might be wrong? Wow; that's humility!

    You obviously have access to the Internet though; which means you have access to concordances, lexicons and interlinear Bibles. So you don't even have the excuse come judgement day that you couldn't study the Scripture yourself to make sure your conclusions were right.

    Proverbs 18:13
    He that answers a matter before he hears it, it is folly and shame unto him.

    So there you go; study it; research it. (I dare you!)

    (Many 'a sinner who made a serious effort to study the Bible with the intent to discredit it; ended up believing it in the end.)

    I'm not insulted and I'm suffering!

    Good; go study the Bible and then come back and talk to me about what you really find!

    May God bring you to faith!
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2020
  5. Lukaris

    Lukaris Orthodox Christian Supporter

    +1,042
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    I do not claim to fully understand the Old Testament but I see part of it as a struggle for survival. While struggling these people were chosen by God & expressed their faith as best they could. They also tried to understand where God is within our daily lives.

    The cruelties in it share the same justified excuses one can find in other religions. There is even a reactionary Buddhism in Myanmar ( for ex. see: Ashin Wirathu - Wikipedia). I am just giving an example; I am not saying Buddhism is inherently like that. Then there are the secular political movements like Marxism which easily justify murder for the “cause” (see:Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun - Wikipedia ).

    Jesus Christ clearly affirmed the old law & to fulfill it ( Matthew 5:17-18). He affirmed the meaning of the Law & Prophets ( Matthew 7:1-12, Matthew 22:36-40 etc.) & firmly reminded the Apostles ( Luke 9:51-56 etc. I think the KJV of Luke 9:51-56 is Bible Gateway passage: Luke 9:51-56 - Authorized (King James) Version). While man has often failed The Gospel, the Gospel is truth & yet many will still ask ( John 18:37-38).

    I think the question could be how can one be saved? The Lord gives us a general determination on those who have done good or bad ( John 5:22-30). We can believe on Him & be saved ( John 3:16-22, Ephesians 2:8-10, Romans 11:22 etc.) or God determines those who strove to do right vs wrong as best they could ( Romans 2 etc.).
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2020
  6. JohnClay

    JohnClay Newbie Supporter

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    BTW there's this:
    Psalm 51:5
    Surely I was sinful at birth,
    sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
     
  7. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    King James never translates that particular word as "sin". It's most commonly translated "iniquity". (Also translated "guilty" and "punishment".)

    Behold in iniquity; (fearfully) withering I to come forth in (of the formation of) sin and in (the heat) of conception was my mother.

    "In iniquity" appears to me to be a reference to the fallen nature. It's a reference to the fact that because of the fallen nature he will sin.

    The word "sin" here in the Hebrew means to be in formation of. Sin is formulated in the heart before its manifest in the flesh. So thus being conceived with a fallen nature, eventually leads to sin; even if that sin is yet to be conceived of.

    If someone does not have the cognitive capacity to formulate thoughts; they can't "think to sin"; even if the capacity of the fallen nature (in the "heart" (or conscience)) is present at conception.

    Now "the heat of conception was my mother" appears to me to be a reference to the instilled natural drive all creation has been instilled with to reproduce. The term is usually used in reference to animals mating.

    I don't think the passage is saying that the mother's desire to have sex was sinful in and of itself; just that the potential to sin is always "crouching at the door" (like God told Cain). Now if it manifests into sin? That's another question.

    The potential to sin is like a dark shadow that follows all humanity of what ever we do. What causes "crossing the line" is different with everyone. This is why some people are prone to becoming drug addicts and others to embezzling money. The manifestation of "what type of sin" is very individually determined on a lot of factors; both conscious and unconscious. This is why the question of who's accountable for what and why; is a tricky one to answer.

    Also why God is omniscient and we are not!
     
  8. Hawkins

    Hawkins Member Supporter

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    There's no children in hell, if you are familiar with the Jewish concepts. As a common sense, only adults can stand trial. If you die as a child you won't wind up in hell.
     
  9. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    @ChristopherHays - I know you are reading these responses! LOL

    And you never did answer the questions I posed to you about your parents' / and grandparents' responses to their losses. (And why not answer those questions? Did they / some of them tell you the same thing I did?)

    I still say your major issue is that you're mad at God because you believe people in this world shouldn't suffer. You still haven't answered the question of why we shouldn't suffer?
     
  10. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    Good point about who stands trial.

    I still leave it to God's sovereign omniscience of who is condemned and who isn't and for what reason.

    Because there are children who; though they hadn't "stood trial" on account of their age; they were put away because they were a danger to society. We're talking 7, 8 and 9 year olds who killed toddlers. There were several cases in England I covered as a research project for a psychology class.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2020
  11. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    So, here raises another issue. What about children who kill people.

    I'd mentioned (post posting edited) about cases I'd studied that happened in England where 8, 9, 10 year old's had deliberately killed toddlers. There were two cases in the US too. One kid was 12, the other was 11, Two in England were 9 and 10 and one girl was 7 or 8 years old. (She killed a two or three year old. Strangled the kid.)

    (If I'm remembering correctly now) I believe only the 12 year old in the US actually "stood trial". He was going to a summer youth program with a 7 year old friend / neighbor. The were riding bicycles. The 12 year old told the 7 year old; let's take this short cut through the woods. He beat the kid, stripped his clothes off; sodomized him with a tree branch and killed him by dropping a rock on his head or something of such nature. He was sentenced as an adult. He's still in prison.

    Two boys in Britain (9 and 10 years old) abducted a 4 year old out of a shopping mall. They walked the kid several miles away; he was crying for his mom. They beat him to death.

    The girl (this was back in the late 50's or early 60's - I think?) strangled at toddler. I think she took his clothes off him too and tried to redress him; like he was a babydoll. (Post mortem) She knew he was dead; eventually admitted to killing him but said she thought he was just going to spring back to life.

    All of these kids were removed from society. All of them were diagnosed with psychological issues. None of them came from homes that were notably dysfunctional.

    So for anyone who thinks children aren't capable of great evil? Propensity of the depth of potential for sin. All of these kids were capable of articulating that they understood killing these other children was morally wrong. None of them displayed the ability to foresee (plan) the consequences of their actions before engaging in them. (None of these killings were provable to be premeditated.) They were all impulsive actions that these kids never thought about the permanence of.

    Yet that's a developmental thing; the inability to foresee the consequence of one's actions is an ability that develops over time.

    All of them displayed varying degrees of "remorse". (Some of them it was difficult to determine if it was remorse for the killing or remorse for getting caught. For serial killers (if they display any remorse); it's usually for the latter.

    Obviously as kids who posed a real threat to society they were all incarcerated in locked facilities. (Mostly in psychiatric facilities.) The 12 year old when he turned 18 was moved to an adult prison.

    Something else to take into consideration of the question of accountability for sin.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2020
  12. Hawkins

    Hawkins Member Supporter

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    By the Jewish custom, a Jew is considered an adult at the age of 12. It means God provided a guideline for human speculation. We as humans can roughly speculate that humans under the age of 12 may not need to stand trial. However this is just a rough guideline for human speculation. It's not an actual judgment. To put it another way, we may say that under 99% situations, a human under the age of 12 will not be judged by a trial. However there's still a 1% to be judged, and only God knows how they will be judged as you yourself already put.

    As Paul said in Romans 9, the Final Judgment will be one done by God. It will be a fair judgment but some part of it may not be fully comprehended by humans. That's why it is said that,

    Romans 9:15 (NIV2011)
    I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.

    Romans 9:20 (NIV2011)
    But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God?
     
  13. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    Yet as the kids described above; certainly present challenges to the human court system.

    I sure am glad God is omniscient!
     
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