How many are saved?

Kaon

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Matthew 7:13-14

Apparently there are 2.4 billion Christians in the world. Based on those verses I get the impression that maybe 5% (of 7 billion) are saved... which is 400 million...

Though most Christians might be assuming that they're saved...

The Word Himself says that many will say that they did wonders and works in His name, claiming/believing to be His people, but He will say He never knew them.

In reality, there are a select number of people who will be saved based on who existed with the Father from the foundations of the entire reality we call the "universe". The descriptive term is a remnant, or election - implying one or few out of many.
 
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ChristopherHays

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I already told you. I did not make up the word "Jehovahnissi". That comes out of the King James.

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: Jehovahnissi



You're right. I stand corrected here. I confused two different passages. (Not sure how I did that; but you are correct I did it! I will readily admit when I make a mistake.)

(Now we sit back and see if you will admit where you are wrong? I won't hold my breath on that one - I promise! LOL)

Israel apparently did wipe out Amelak's army at the time of the initial confrontation. Yet, why does this span in passing years negate what I quoted in Genesis about nations filling up their time of appointed wrath?

This is the explanation SCRIPTURE gives you as to why this happened at the time it did.

So why such an extended period of time?

Well, people don't usually die at the hand of every single sin they commit either. (Sometimes the consequence for sin is immediate. Thief breaks into house and home owner shoots them dead.) One may die at 90 years old and face judgement for sins committed in a war that happened 70 years earlier.

Fact of the matter still remains; we are all still guilty of sin.

Yet who's to say the infants killed of Amelak in the days of Saul were eternally lost either? (Or even that all the adults were eternally lost?) What comes down as judgement "en-mass" does not necessarily determine one's eternal fate.

As I've heard it said in the military: Kill them all and let God sort them out. (Not that I agree morally with that logic; but I understand where it comes from.)

Matter of fact there's a passage in Acts 17 that speaks about this:

22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.

23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


I stopped reading at “kill them all and let God sort it out”... I’m fine with the explanation that god wanted them killed because their nation attacked Moses... I’m just saying that’s immoral. You can’t punish people for crimes committed by someone else.
 
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ChristopherHays

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I don't know that The Joker movie was terrible. Was it? o_O

I was so disappointed lol. I was really looking forward to it. I had too high expectations after the Dark Knight joker was so well done... but this new one was just not fun to watch. The theater I went to had to be 90° and the popcorn was old. That’s didn’t help xD
 
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The Righterzpen

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I stopped reading at “kill them all and let God sort it out”... I’m fine with the explanation that god wanted them killed because their nation attacked Moses... I’m just saying that’s immoral. You can’t punish people for crimes committed by someone else.

You and your moral superiority complex! :doh::doh::doh:

No one said that statement you so object to is moral; but if you'd read the entire response you would have realized that.

You really need to get over yourself!
 
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JohnClay

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I think god should kill less humans and put no one in hell. A true loving, forgiving, and good god wouldn’t do either.
I see it as a test about the argument of authority (the Bible is 100% true because it says it is) and faith vs human reasoning (1 Corinthians 3:18-19).
 
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ChristopherHays

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You and your moral superiority complex! :doh::doh::doh:

No one said that statement you so object to is moral; but if you'd read the entire response you would have realized that.

You really need to get over yourself!

I just read your entire response, I still don’t see an explanation. Do you think it’s acceptable to punish children for someone else’s crimes? Or are you denying that god does this? You loose either way, because I can show you where this happens 10 times in the Bible, and every court in the civilized world agrees with me that this is immoral.
 
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ChristopherHays

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I see it as a test about the argument of authority (the Bible is 100% true because it says it is) and faith vs human reasoning (1 Corinthians 3:18-19).

“human” reasoning as opposed to what? Reasoning is reasoning, I’ll choose it over faith every day. I’m yet to see an instance where faith without reasoning is a virtuous or beneficial quality.
 
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JohnClay

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“human” reasoning as opposed to what? Reasoning is reasoning, I’ll choose it over faith every day. I’m yet to see an instance where faith without reasoning is a virtuous or beneficial quality.
God's wisdom! See also Philippians 4:7. If this is a simulation then the intelligent force could be 100% certain of the elements within the simulation such as how many hairs are on your head or how many grains of sand that are on the shores (with help from AIs). We can face delusions and hallucinations. The advantage is that Christians are promised it will lead to paradise and avoid hell.
 
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ChristopherHays

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God's wisdom! See also Philippians 4:7. If this is a simulation then the intelligent force could be 100% certain of the elements within the simulation such as how many hairs are on your head or how many grains of sand that are on the shores (with help from AIs). We can face delusions and hallucinations. The advantage is that Christians are promised it will lead to paradise and avoid hell.

How do we know what god’s wisdom is? You’ve already told me you think the Bible has errors and mistakes right? So how do we access this wisdom? How do you even know it exists?
 
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JohnClay

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How do we know what god’s wisdom is? You’ve already told me you think the Bible has errors and mistakes right? So how do we access this wisdom? How do you even know it exists?
There are three main options: that the Bible is 100% True (and the Holy Spirit can help with ambiguities), parts might not be literally true (but still be inspired [see my YEC apologetics thread]) or that there is no supernatural and the Bible has an entirely human origin. But I don't think from a human point of view there is an obvious answer. I like this quote from "God" in Futurama:
When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.

So naturalistic atheists can feel justified.
 
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ChristopherHays

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There are three main options: that the Bible is 100% True (and the Holy Spirit can help with ambiguities), parts might not be literally true (but still be inspired [see my YEC apologetics thread]) or that there is no supernatural and the Bible has an entirely human origin. But I don't think from a human point of view there is an obvious answer. I like this quote from "God" in Futurama:
When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.

So naturalistic atheists can feel justified.

So the answer isn’t obvious and it’s completely justifiable to accept or reject the notion? Do you think god puts people in hell for guessing wrong on this?
 
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The Righterzpen

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I just read your entire response, I still don’t see an explanation. Do you think it’s acceptable to punish children for someone else’s crimes? Or are you denying that god does this? You loose either way, because I can show you where this happens 10 times in the Bible, and every court in the civilized world agrees with me that this is immoral.

If you read the response you would have seen that God ultimately is the One who decides who's guilty of what and who isn't; despite the fact that all of them may have gotten killed.

The answer you claim isn't there is in verse 30 of Acts 17. Where people are ignorant of law; God does not hold that to their charge. So though these kids may have been killed. That does not mean they are automatically and ultimately condemned.

Call the kids "collateral damage" if it makes you feel better?

(Thus the common military phrase: "Kill them all and let God sort them out.")

You act as if physical death is the end all and be all of existence; which it is not.

So just because God has allowed (or even instructed the killing of) little children; doesn't automatically mean they are condemned just because they are dead. All are guilty of sin and all die anyways; so in terms of eternity, does it really matter how old we are when that happens, or even for what reason it happens?

What about kids who die in disasters, accidents, or die of disease. Ultimately God is the one who's brought those ends about too. Are you going to charge Him with sin for that too?

Your real problem is you hate God.
 
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JohnClay

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....Your real problem is you hate God.
I think it is true that for ChristopherHays the God that is described in the Bible is seen as having appalling and disgusting morals. Righterzpen seems to believe that whatever God says or does is always perfectly moral because God is the basis for morality. I think it is interesting that genocide and slavery is commanded in the Bible because it proves how far Righterzpen's faith will go....
 
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JohnClay

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So the answer isn’t obvious and it’s completely justifiable to accept or reject the notion?
Yes people can't be sure that their beliefs are True (partly due to possibility of delusions and hallucinations, even when they're not very dramatic) but I also think the Bible is deliberately ambiguous (with contradictions that literalists try to reconcile)
Maybe this can be seen as "free will" rather than there being a clear best option.

Do you think god puts people in hell for guessing wrong on this?
I think there is a good case that humans won't suffer forever in hell: (just for a limited time)
See:
Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical

Also see the 3 five star reviews by Christians who originally believed in eternal torment:
The Fire That Consumes (3rd Edition) by Edward William Fudge | Koorong

Perhaps God allowed the traditional church view of eternal torment to test whether believers in this can rationalise that with the idea that God is perfectly loving and just.

My female priest friend says that heaven and hell could be referring to our earthly lives.

In a simulation hell could last for billions of years. But hopefully God is merciful.

There's also these threads:
The severity of suffering in hell

Does hell always last forever?
 
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ChristopherHays

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If you read the response you would have seen that God ultimately is the One who decides who's guilty of what and who isn't; despite the fact that all of them may have gotten killed.

The answer you claim isn't there is in verse 30 of Acts 17. Where people are ignorant of law; God does not hold that to their charge. So though these kids may have been killed. That does not mean they are automatically and ultimately condemned.

Call the kids "collateral damage" if it makes you feel better?

(Thus the common military phrase: "Kill them all and let God sort them out.")

You act as if physical death is the end all and be all of existence; which it is not.

So just because God has allowed (or even instructed the killing of) little children; doesn't automatically mean they are condemned just because they are dead. All are guilty of sin and all die anyways; so in terms of eternity, does it really matter how old we are when that happens, or even for what reason it happens?

What about kids who die in disasters, accidents, or die of disease. Ultimately God is the one who's brought those ends about too. Are you going to charge Him with sin for that too?

Your real problem is you hate God.

I don’t understand the connection between acts 17 and my argument. My problem is with god killing innocent babies as a punishment for someone else’s crimes. Weather or not murdered babies get in the back door of heaven sometimes doesn’t matter. It’s still immoral to demand the killing of innocent babies, especially for crimes committed up to 500 years earlier.


“Ultimately God is the one who's brought those ends about too”

I appreciate you recognizing god’s role in killing babies.

Three times I watched my mother paint little teddy bears on the walls of our nursery, sew little outfits, and read the Bible to a little baby in her womb. Three times I watched my dad build a crib as he stressed out over baby names. Three times I watched my grandparents yell with excitement as they heard the news... and three times I saw their faces as they watched a little baby suffer. Three times I watched my mom hold a limp, lifeless body as it took its last breath. I’ll never forget the way she looked... People can never really recover from trauma like that. Nothing can ever be the same. No one can trust such excitement, such anticipation, such joy, not after something like that. Not after the third time... now there’s nothing left but to bury your sorrows beneath your awareness, only to have the memories regurgitated every time you hear the right name or see the right face...

The world is a cruel place. We forget that sometimes in countries like ours... but we’re never more than one step ahead of unimaginable heartache. God wouldn’t even have to do much to ease our suffering. Just let us know he hears our most desperate cries. Let us know we’re not alone. Give us some real assurance that our lost loved ones are in heaven... we don’t get any real answers. We’re even meant to despise ourselves and repent when we ask questions (Job 42)

Of course I would hate a god who’s responsible for all this. I’m glad he doesn’t exist. I’m glad I don’t have to fear my brothers are in hell because hell doesn’t exist. I wish an all good, all loving god was controlling everything, but the world we know is far better explained by the mindless processes of nature.
 
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ChristopherHays

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Yes people can't be sure that their beliefs are True (partly due to possibility of delusions and hallucinations, even when they're not very dramatic) but I also think the Bible is deliberately ambiguous (with contradictions that literalists try to reconcile)
Maybe this can be seen as "free will" rather than there being a clear best option.


I think there is a good case that humans won't suffer forever in hell: (just for a limited time)
See:
Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical

Also see the 3 five star reviews by Christians who originally believed in eternal torment:
The Fire That Consumes (3rd Edition) by Edward William Fudge | Koorong

Perhaps God allowed the traditional church view of eternal torment to test whether believers in this can rationalise that with the idea that God is perfectly loving and just.

My female priest friend says that heaven and hell could be referring to our earthly lives.

In a simulation hell could last for billions of years. But hopefully God is merciful.

There's also these threads:
The severity of suffering in hell

Does hell always last forever?
Yes people can't be sure that their beliefs are True (partly due to possibility of delusions and hallucinations, even when they're not very dramatic) but I also think the Bible is deliberately ambiguous (with contradictions that literalists try to reconcile)
Maybe this can be seen as "free will" rather than there being a clear best option.


I think there is a good case that humans won't suffer forever in hell: (just for a limited time)
See:
Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical

Also see the 3 five star reviews by Christians who originally believed in eternal torment:
The Fire That Consumes (3rd Edition) by Edward William Fudge | Koorong

Perhaps God allowed the traditional church view of eternal torment to test whether believers in this can rationalise that with the idea that God is perfectly loving and just.

My female priest friend says that heaven and hell could be referring to our earthly lives.

In a simulation hell could last for billions of years. But hopefully God is merciful.

There's also these threads:
The severity of suffering in hell

Does hell always last forever?


I just wonder what it would take to make you reconsider when you see obvious flaws in your religious book as more evidence in favor of that god.

It’s sorta like a guy who can’t find evidence of UFOs but gets even more convinced because ‘obviously the aliens are hiding the evidence’


I assume you believe every other religious book is wrong. They all have errors and contradictions. The Bible looks exactly the same to me, with even more errors and contradictions than other religious books... yet you’re convinced it’s divinely inspired? Why?
 
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JohnClay

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......Of course I would hate a god who’s responsible for all this. I’m glad he doesn’t exist. I’m glad I don’t have to fear my brothers are in hell because hell doesn’t exist. I wish an all good, all loving god was controlling everything, but the world we know is far better explained by the mindless processes of nature.
BTW I also didn't believe in the supernatural in various times in my life.... but in recent times I experienced synchronicities and they always were related to the meaning of life or "God", etc.

Hearing songs with seemingly supernatural significance

I am quite sure there is an intelligent force but it isn't clear about the exact specifics as far as what parts of the Bible are literally true, etc. Though sometimes even pastors disagree and say things like the upside down Bible was a meaningless accident. This isn't surprising based on my current belief system which involves paradoxes.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I was so disappointed lol. I was really looking forward to it. I had too high expectations after the Dark Knight joker was so well done... but this new one was just not fun to watch. The theater I went to had to be 90° and the popcorn was old. That’s didn’t help xD

I just saw the Joker movie recently on pay-per-view, and like you, I was a little taken aback. However, I did think Phoenix's rendition of the Joker character was compelling, even if the story-line, on the whole, was a little-bit-less than what I'd usually expect from DC. (I mean, where was the whole motif of Arthur falling into a vat of chemicals and becoming brilliantly deranged ... Oh. I see. In this film, "Society" served as the vat. )
 
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JohnClay

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I just wonder what it would take to make you reconsider when you see obvious flaws in your religious book as more evidence in favor of that god.
I think that the parts of the Bible you don't like or believe could be a test to see how black and white and irrational people are capable of being. e.g. some Christians would try to justify why it seems that most people are going to hell, possibly forever, and yet God is absolutely perfectly loving and just...
or that the gospel genealogies are somehow 100% historical - even though it gives two different fathers for Shealtiel, etc.
The Genealogies of Jesus

It’s sorta like a guy who can’t find evidence of UFOs but gets even more convinced because ‘obviously the aliens are hiding the evidence’
I'm saying that the intelligent force wants atheists to feel justified in atheism based on their own reasoning. My reasoning is quite paradoxical and not black and white.

I assume you believe every other religious book is wrong.
If the religious books talk about the supernatural I think delusion and hallucinations are a more likely explanation than supernatural events.

They all have errors and contradictions. The Bible looks exactly the same to me, with even more errors and contradictions than other religious books... yet you’re convinced it’s divinely inspired? Why?
Maybe a large proportion isn't inspired. I think the amount of injust commands and apparent contradictions is a lot worse than I would expect from a book with purely human origins. See also:
Why YEC can seem plausible
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I think that the parts of the Bible you don't like or believe could be a test to see how black and white and irrational people are capable of being. e.g. some Christians would try to justify why it seems that most people are going to hell, possibly forever, and yet God is absolutely perfectly loving and just...
or that the gospel genealogies are somehow 100% historical - even though it gives two different fathers for Shealtiel, etc.
The Genealogies of Jesus

I'm saying that the intelligent force wants atheists to feel justified in atheism based on their own reasoning. My reasoning is quite paradoxical and not black and white.


If the religious books talk about the supernatural I think delusion and hallucinations are a more likely explanation than supernatural events.


Maybe a large proportion isn't inspired. I think the amount of injust commands and apparent contradictions is a lot worse than I would expect from a book with purely human origins. See also:
Why YEC can seem plausible

The mistake, here, John, is that we think of "the Bible" as ... well...the Bible, when really is a diverse anthology, with each writer giving his own point of view and personal experience, his own take if you will, upon the singular person of God who has acted in various, somewhat surprising ways, for His own people, but not for the world at large on the whole. We shouldn't REALLY expect that the four Gospels would (or even should) perfectly align with each other, similar to how we don't really expect any of various accounts on American history to perfectly align with each other as we compare texts.

In a similar way, the same goes for our own variable understandings of the text of Genesis and as to what, if anything, it has to do with modern paleontology and/or cosmology. Unfortunately, due to our modern technological acumen, I think we expect too much from the Bible.
 
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