How I came to embrace Preterism.

[stauron]

As a futurist I would see it as when all the Gentile are called in to embrace Jesus.

So, looking more at this verse, the time of the Gentiles/nations means what to a preterist? What does it mean by 'fulfilled'?

There is a lot of history around the "times of the gentiles".

It is a thread started in Genesis and wound through prophecy. Biblically it has the force of "non-Israelite rule".

So the time between the breaking of the power of the holy people until the set up of the Kingdom made without hands. Genesis 49:10 is the start, and then Daniel fleshes out a good portion of it (see especially 12:7).

It is also known as Jacob's trouble, the great tribulation, etc. when over 1 million people perished stubbornly claiming that God was their Father while at the same time trampling under foot the Son

How much greater punishment do you think that person deserves who has contempt for the Son of God, and profanes the blood of the covenant that made him holy, and insults the Spirit of grace? 10:30 For we know the one who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 10:31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

So basically, those who called themselves God's people, but were in reality the harlot and the synagogue of satan were trodden down by the nations and found themselves in the winepress of God's great wrath.

 

[gort]

No, that would be how the Greek scholars explained the greek word "oikoumene"

Strong's Number: 3625oiÎkoumeÑnhOriginal WordWord Origin oiÎkoumeÑnh feminine participle present passive of (3611) (as noun, by implication of (1093))Transliterated WordPhonetic Spelling Oikoumene oy-kou-men'-ay Parts of SpeechTDNT Noun Feminine 5:157,674 Definition
1.the inhabited earth
the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in distinction from the lands of the barbarians
2.the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire
3.the whole inhabited earth, the world
4.the inhabitants of the earth, men

I choose 3 and 4. You are free to choose as you like. I prefer to think God thinks of the whole entire world and all things contained within it.

Why do you ask this again, when I already answered it twice before?

ignored.

OK, show me in this definition the word "UP"??? I sure don't see it. You just made my point. That greek word has nothing to do with UP or going UP anywhere. It means to catch AWAY or OUT.....NOT UP.

ignored
I've already showed the word used and the meaning from Strongs.

Do you know what circumambient means? It means the air around you. It doesn't mean the sky. So, there is no "up" in this verse and the word "air" means the air around you...not the sky.

The way we understand the meaning of the word "air" is to look at this verse:
Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

It's the same greek word. How do you think it's used here?

Not the same context as the other.

Hebrews 9:
27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him

So are you saved? If you believe Jesus hasn't returned yet....then this scripture says He hasn't brought salvation to those who were waiting for Him yet. He hasn't come back yet to bring salvation and none of us are saved until He returns. Look at it carefully. Is salvation here? If so....then He has returned the second time. According to this scripture.

Then I guess we are'nt sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemtion, are we. Paul was inspired, was'nt he?

I'm going to assume that nobody is saved if they don't believe in the second return of Jesus in 70 a.d.? Please tell me otherwise.

If Jesus says it's ALL about spiritual realities. Why are you focused on physical returns, physical raptures, and physical resurrections? Why aren't you focused on the invisible spiritual realities? Like Jesus said to do.

Actually, I'm not focused on physical returns, etc. I'm focused on the troubles of today and will worry about tomorrows troubles tomorrow, as Jesus said. But I do wait in anticipation for 'That Day' when He does come back and say, "Don't pack your bags, I've come to take you home. Now."

I'm quite happy with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who always keeps me pondering all the day of the Beloved Son. Tis such a gift.

THey also don't declare the bodily physical return either. They just say "in like manner". I guess it's up for debate what that means.

No, it's quite clear what the angels said.

How do you know they haven't? Has God told you they haven't been? Are you limiting what God can do? The bible says that because Jesus died, God doesn't count mens sins against them. So how do you know that everyone isn't reconciled?

Joh 3:18 He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.

Because this verse tell me so. My neighbor does'nt believe in God. He is not yet reconciled to God. Already he is condemned, but tomorrow he may repent. Again, all reconciliation is not complete.

How do you know that an evil person being in hell isn't them being "reconciled" to God? The bible says "our God is a consuming fire". Perhaps they are absorbed within God Himself and consumed and that is their reconcilation back to God?? You don't know.

I've read some of your posts with the universalists. Why do you proffer up that which you don't believe in? I'm interested in honest debates and discussions. Not with debate tactics.

I already said that a person commits evil when trying to achieve salvation apart from Jesus. All other sins Jesus has paid for.

this prolly deserves its own thread. My view is all sin is evil. Sin is rebellion against God. God abhors sin, and it will not dwell in His presence.

You're focusing on the physical death again. Jesus and Paul said to fix your eyes on spiritual things. Spiritual death is what matters. Jesus said the flesh counts for nothing.

The power of spiritual death and sin still holds sway over the unregenerate.

So the Devil made them do it huh? Sorry. The bible says that the heart of man is desperately wicked and deceitful ABOVE ALL THINGS. There doesn't need to be a Satan for wickedness, evil and sin to occur. THe bible says "the fool has said IN HIS HEART, there is no God". Nothing about Satan there. He is a defeated foe.

The bible also says satan is the author of all lies. satan has told the 'fool' there is no god. satan is a defeated foe, yes. To the believer because of what Jesus did.

Somewhat of a sin nature? As long as we are in this body of flesh, we have a sin nature in full bloom. THrough Christ we can "put if off", but until we shed this body, we have to deal with it. And I agree, we are not yet glorified. That will take place when we go to heaven.

Yes, we have to deal with it. But it is no longer in full bloom. In my experience, far far from it. very far. very far indeed. so dang far away. To be reborn is to have the eyes of the heart inclined to God. Sin is no longer our master. If sin was our master, then we would be in full bloom.

Nope. That's not true. Preterism teaches that it is all finished. That all things are as God would have them in the kingdom. His will is being done on earth, as it is in Heaven. His kingdom is ever increasing. Jesus is ruling and reigning.

Then when does it end???

There is an end. Jesus does give all things back to the Father.

Well I HOPE the salvation of man is embedded in my beliefs. It's what Jesus came to die for. I don't see how it is askew from any of the teachings of Jesus. Care to elaborate?

I already did. It was in regards to the temple and offering of animals till 70 ad that is false.


<><

 

[gort]

Heb 9:28 so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many. And to those who look for Him He shall appear the second time without sin to salvation.

from John Gill:

shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation; this is to be understood of Christ's visible and personal appearance on earth, which will be a glorious one; he will appear in his own glory, and in his Father's glory, and in the glory of the holy angels, and in the glory of his power, to the joy of saints, and to the terror of the wicked; for every eye shall see him: and this is said to be "the second time"; that is, that he appears on earth, and personally; for though he often appears to his people, it is in a spiritual way; and though he appeared to Stephen and to Paul, yet not on earth, but in heaven; and this is called the second time, with reference to his first appearance in human nature at his incarnation, and after that he ascended to heaven; and as this will be the second, it will be the last: the manner in which he will appear, will be, "without sin"; without sin itself; without any thing like it: without any infirmities, which though not sinful are the effects of sin; without sin imputed to him, with which he appeared before; without being a sacrifice for sin; and without sin upon his people that come with him, or he shall meet whom he shall raise, or change, and take to himself: and the end of his appearance with respect to them, will be "unto salvation"; the end of his first appearance was to obtain salvation for his people, and he has obtained it, and there is a comfortable application of it made unto them by the Spirit of God; but the full possession of it will be hereafter, and into this will Christ put them, when he shall appear: the Alexandrian copy adds, "by faith", and also some other copies.

 

[EchoPneuma]

I choose 3 and 4. You are free to choose as you like. I prefer to think God thinks of the whole entire world and all things contained within it.

Well, if you prefer to go with that definition of the word ,as it is used the LEAST in scripture....I suppose that is your perogative. I will go with how it is used the MOST times in scripture. To mean the Roman Empire..or the known world of that day.

"Caesar Augustus issued a decree that the WHOLE WORLD should be taxed".

I really DON'T think that meant the whole globe and everything in it.

ignored.

Fair enough. But why did you ask if you were only going to ignore the answer?

I've already showed the word used and the meaning from Strongs.

Yes, and I showed you how that word didn't incorporate the meaning of "up" in any way. You can keep saying it, but it doesn't make it so.

Not the same context as the other.

But it's the SAME GREEK WORD as the other. That's what's important. The meaning of the word is everything to the understanding of that scripture.

Then I guess we are'nt sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemtion, are we. Paul was inspired, was'nt he?

Yes, Paul was inspired. And YES, those first century converts WERE sealed until the day of redemption. That day occured in 70AD when Jesus returned. Now, we have the Father, Son and Holy Spirit ALL abiding within us. We are sealed AND redeemed.

I'm going to assume that nobody is saved if they don't believe in the second return of Jesus in 70 a.d.? Please tell me otherwise.

Then you are going to assume wrong. Certain eschatological beliefs have NOTHING to do with your salvation. Believe in Jesus' death, burial and resurrection and placing faith in Him for the forgiveness of sins is what is required for salvation. If you've done that, you're saved.

Your beliefs about His Second Coming (whether past or future) don't play any part in being saved. It just plays a part in how your view the kingdom and this earth.

Actually, I'm not focused on physical returns, etc. I'm focused on the troubles of today and will worry about tomorrows troubles tomorrow, as Jesus said. But I do wait in anticipation for 'That Day' when He does come back and say, "Don't pack your bags, I've come to take you home. Now."

According to the scriptures...you are already home. You are in the spiritual kingdom of God and THAT is where our citizenship resides. Then when we die, we get to go to God's home...in heaven.

I'm quite happy with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who always keeps me pondering all the day of the Beloved Son. Tis such a gift.

I'm glad you're happy. I'm happy to. One of the fruits of the Spirit is joy.

Isaiah 26:3
You will keep in perfect peace him whose mind is steadfast, because he trusts in you.

No, it's quite clear what the angels said.

It if was quite clear there wouldn't be so much debate among scholars what is meant there.

Joh 3:18 He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.

Because this verse tell me so. My neighbor does'nt believe in God. He is not yet reconciled to God. Already he is condemned, but tomorrow he may repent. Again, all reconciliation is not complete.

I agree that reconcilation is not complete. I believe that the reconciling of man to God through Jesus Christ will go on as long as man exists. It IS the eternal covenant and Jesus is an eternal High Priest. No need for an eternal High Priest if there is no one for Him to intercede for.

I've read some of your posts with the universalists. Why do you proffer up that which you don't believe in? I'm interested in honest debates and discussions. Not with debate tactics.

Excuse me? I dont "proffer up what I don't believe" I ask questions to make others think. I show scriptures that make us look at ALL sides of an issue. I don't cling tenaciously to a few proof texts and ignore other scriptures that seem to go against my beliefs. We should be lovers of TRUTH....not lovers of our own doctrines. I am offering honest debate and discussion. I'm am sorry if it isn't to your liking.

this prolly deserves its own thread. My view is all sin is evil. Sin is rebellion against God. God abhors sin, and it will not dwell in His presence.

Another thread then. I agree that God abhors sin, That is why Jesus had to pay for it. Sin can't dwell in the presence of God.

The power of spiritual death and sin still holds sway over the unregenerate.

Sin still holds sway over them because they refuse to come to Jesus to have that power broken. Spiritual death's power has been broken over everyone. Under the OT covenant EVERYONE (even believers) died and went to Sheol where they were separated from the presence of God (spiritual death). Death held sway over ALL. But once Jesus rose from the dead He conquered death,.. Now ALL people can be in the presence of God.

The bible also says satan is the author of all lies. satan has told the 'fool' there is no god. satan is a defeated foe, yes. To the believer because of what Jesus did.

Well, if Satan is a defeated foe then why are you giving him so much power over people? If he is defeated, what does that mean to you?

Yes, we have to deal with it. But it is no longer in full bloom. In my experience, far far from it. very far. very far indeed. so dang far away. To be reborn is to have the eyes of the heart inclined to God. Sin is no longer our master. If sin was our master, then we would be in full bloom.

By "in full bloom" I mean fully functioning. We haven't been delivered from it yet. It's still in effect in our bodies. But you are correct that it no longer has mastery over us. Jesus has broken the power of the old sin nature in us. Now we sin because we CHOOSE to , not because we are a slave to it.

Then when does it end???

There is an end. Jesus does give all things back to the Father.

Jesus has already given it back to the Father. Now God is "all in all". Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father with the Spirit of God before the throne...and this throne is in our hearts. A throne resides wherever the kingdom resides correct? THe king would sit on the throne WITHIN His kingdom correct? So the throne is within our hearts. God is all in all. Father, Son and Holy Spirit abiding within us.

When does it end? It doesn't. The kingdom is eternal.

I already did. It was in regards to the temple and offering of animals till 70 ad that is false.

What is false? Josephus said they were offered right up until the temple was destroyed. It's history.

If God wouldn't have accepted those sacrifices, that He had COMMANDED the Jews to offer, then God would have lied to them. Remember, the Jews knew that as long as the temple stood that they had the command from God to go there and offer sacrifices.

If the temple still stood, and yet God refused to accept those sacrifices it would make God a liar in the eyes of a Jew. So that is why it was SO important for Jesus to destroy the earthly temple. That's why His prophecy in Luke 21 was so significant. Because when the temple was destroyed, God was showing them that the Old Covenant was GONE. That He no longer accepted those sacrifices because He destroyed the temple.

YOu have to look at this through Jewish eyes to see the significance.

I don't believe this, in any way, conflicts with the gospel message. Jesus death, burial and resurrection paid for sins (it is finished) and then God gave that generation of Jews a chance to repent and follow Him (40 years of grace) before He destroyed it all.............as the sign to apostate Israel that Jesus really WAS the sacrifice that ended all sacrifices.

 

[Hello There]

"Caesar Augustus issued a decree that the WHOLE WORLD should be taxed".

Are you assuming that ALL never means ALL?
I understand it doesn't in that context. But mostly in scripture ALL means ALL.

btw, I am enjoying this thread.
sorry to disrupt you in the middle of a debate....

 

[EchoPneuma]

Are you assuming that ALL never means ALL?
I understand it doesn't in that context. But mostly in scripture ALL means ALL.

btw, I am enjoying this thread.
sorry to disrupt you in the middle of a debate....

I am enjoying it as well. No reason to be sorry for the interruption. That's what we're here for.

I don't understand what you are asking though. "All" means "all", all the time. But who the "all" is, is determined by the context of a passage.

Look at this scripture:
Luke 20:37-39- But in the account of the bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord 'the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." 38He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."
39Some of the teachers of the law responded, "Well said, teacher!"

Who do you think the "all" is in this context? Isn't it obvious that it's Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? All of them are alive as far as God is concerned. You can't take this to mean all of humanity (including Gentiles). Otherwise, the Jewish teachers of the law wouldn't have said "well said, teacher" They considered Gentiles dogs.

So, the "all" always has to be determined by context. Sometimes the "all" was all Christians....sometimes it was "all" the Jews....sometimes it was "all" of humanity...sometimes it was "all" within a certain church.

 

[EchoPneuma]

Carl, in reference to this scripture:
"The Grace of God has appeared bringing salvation to ALL men" - Titus 2:11
Just because God's grace BRINGS salvation to all men, does that mean they have to receive it? I can bring you a glass of water.....but that doesn't mean you have to take it from me and drink it.

THrough God's grace salvation is provided to all of humanity. It's up to each individual whether or not they take advantage of the provision.

A gift given isn't useful unless it is received.

 

[Hello There]

I think it'd be better if you discussed this in the "Restitution of all things" topic,
because if I get started then I'll end up bringing this thread off topic.

But I can understand you interpretation, as I believe that he will keep on bringing/offering salvation to all man even after our heart beat stops.
He won't be staying mad at us forever.

For His anger is but for a moment, His favor is for a lifetime; Weeping may last for the night, but a shout of joy comes in the morning.

For the Lord will not reject forever, for if He causes grief, then He will have compassion according to His abundant loving kindness.

Who is a God like Thee, who pardons iniquity and passes over the rebellious act of the remnant of His possession? He does not retain His anger forever, because He delights in unchanging love.

 

[gort]

Echopneuma quotes:

Well, if you prefer to go with that definition of the word ,as it is used the LEAST in scripture....I suppose that is your perogative. I will go with how it is used the MOST times in scripture. To mean the Roman Empire..or the known world of that day.

"Caesar Augustus issued a decree that the WHOLE WORLD should be taxed".

I really DON'T think that meant the whole globe and everything in it.

Well, it is and can be used as a definition of the word. Depends on who's context it's in.

Augustus can use the whole world as he likes when he said that.

God can mean 'whosoever believes' in the context of 'all humanity', just as He means 'all' when He says 'all' have sinned, regarding all of humanity.

Yes, and I showed you how that word didn't incorporate the meaning of "up" in any way. You can keep saying it, but it doesn't make it so.

I showed you the 'phrase' "shall be caught up" is rendered the greek word 'harpazo' which means:

1) to seize, carry off by force

2) to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly

3) to snatch out or away

nothing more, nothing less....

But it's the SAME GREEK WORD as the other. That's what's important. The meaning of the word is everything to the understanding of that scripture.

It is still dependent upon context.

Then you are going to assume wrong. Certain eschatological beliefs have NOTHING to do with your salvation. Believe in Jesus' death, burial and resurrection and placing faith in Him for the forgiveness of sins is what is required for salvation. If you've done that, you're saved.

Your beliefs about His Second Coming (whether past or future) don't play any part in being saved. It just plays a part in how your view the kingdom and this earth.

EP quotes:

So are you saved? If you believe Jesus hasn't returned yet....then this scripture says He hasn't brought salvation to those who were waiting for Him yet. He hasn't come back yet to bring salvation and none of us are saved until He returns. Look at it carefully. Is salvation here? If so....then He has returned the second time. According to this scripture.

Clarify again please when you have time. For me, Jesus has'nt returned yet in GLory.
thanx



<><

 

[EchoPneuma]

Well, it is and can be used as a definition of the word. Depends on who's context it's in.

Augustus can use the whole world as he likes when he said that.

It wasn't Augustus who said that...it was Luke in Chapter 2 Verse 1. Look at it in different translations and see how the word is translated.

King James Version (KJV)
Luke 2
1And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.

New International Version (NIV)
Luke 2
1In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world

New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Luke 2
1Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth. .

Now, do you see how that word is used? It doesn't mean literally the whole globe. That is the word that Jesus used when He said that the gospel had to be preached to the whole world before He came back.....meaning all the known world of that day, or all the Roman Empire. That is how the word "oikoumene" was used in the New Testament.

God can mean 'whosoever believes' in the context of 'all humanity', just as He means 'all' when He says 'all' have sinned, regarding all of humanity.

I don't understand what point you're trying to make here? Clarify.

I showed you the 'phrase' "shall be caught up" is rendered the greek word 'harpazo' which means:

1) to seize, carry off by force

Show me the word "UP" in this part of the definition?

2) to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly

Show me the word "UP" in this part of the definition?

3) to snatch out or away

Show me the word "UP" in this part of the definition? It isn't there.

Yet, you say the greek word HARPAZO means "to be caught UP"? Show me UP in any part of that defintion. It ISN'T THERE. It has been translated WRONG.

nothing more, nothing less....

I have pointed out to you again how there is no part of the word HARPAZO that means going "UP" anywhere. I don't care HOW it's translated in your bible....that's not what it means. It means to carry AWAY not UP.

It is still dependent upon context.

No, it isn't. It means exactly the same in each context.

Clarify again please when you have time. For me, Jesus has'nt returned yet in GLory.

What I am saying is that according to Hebrews, when He appears the Second Time (which He did in 70AD) He will come to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him. If you don't believe He has returned the Second time, then you are in essence saying that He hasn't brought salvation back to us. That we are STILL waiting for salvation. That is what the futurists are saying by denying that Jesus has returned the second time. That's why I'm not a futurist. I believe that Jesus has already returned the second time (in 70 AD) and HAS ALREADY brought salvation to believers.

That's why I asked "are you saved?" Because if you say you are saved right now, then you are also saying that He must have already returned the second time, because Hebrews makes it clear that when He returns the second time He will BRING SALVATION to those who are waiting for Him.

Has He brought salvation? If yes. Then He has returned the second time.
They go together. You can't separate the two.

You can't say "Jesus has brought me salvation. I have it now"....and yet deny He has returned the second time. That contradicts the scripture in Hebrews that says:

Hebrews 9:28
so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Doesn't this scripture make it plain that salvation is brought to us when Jesus returns the second time? So has salvation been brought to us? Yes! Then He has appeared the second time ALREADY!

I don't know any other way to clarify it.

But what you believe about these things is not relevant to your salvation. You're still saved. It just means that you don't understand WHEN Jesus brought salvation and when His second return happened. And your futurist belief is contradictory to Hebrews 9:28.

Thanx

You're welcome.

 

[jittery]

I grew up in futurist churches with constant Rapture scares and Sunday night services devoted to those cruddy Thief in the Night movies, and now as an adult I find myself increasingly skeptical about the Left Behind theology. I think preterism seems to make the most sense, but I'm curious what preterists do about all the plagues and judgements in Revelation. I mean, okay, they already happened and apply to what Nero did to the Christians, but what, for example, do the weird locust-monsters refer to in Revelation 9? (Talk about a source for childhood nightmares, btw). Can someone answer and/or point me in a direction to get answers?

 

[EchoPneuma]

I grew up in futurist churches with constant Rapture scares and Sunday night services devoted to those cruddy Thief in the Night movies, and now as an adult I find myself increasingly skeptical about the Left Behind theology. I think preterism seems to make the most sense, but I'm curious what preterists do about all the plagues and judgements in Revelation. I mean, okay, they already happened and apply to what Nero did to the Christians, but what, for example, do the weird locust-monsters refer to in Revelation 9? (Talk about a source for childhood nightmares, btw). Can someone answer and/or point me in a direction to get answers?

Welcome Jittery. So you're in the heretic camp huh . Preterists are considered heretics in most mainstream churches. You notice that we can only talk about preterism here in the UNORTHODOX theology forum.

Anyway, the best place to start is the Preterst Archive and Planet Preterist. Many scriptures are explained there....and there is an excellent outline of Revelation there (Planet Preterist) as well....showing how it was already fulfulled. The outline is called "Outline to Covenant Eschatology"

Good luck!....and welcome to the preterist understanding of eschatology. It's quite a bumpy road.

 

[buddy mack]

Welcome Jittery. So you're in the heretic camp huh . Preterists are considered heretics in most mainstream churches. You notice that we can only talk about preterism here in the UNORTHODOX theology forum.

Anyway, the best place to start is the Preterst Archive and Planet Preterist. Many scriptures are explained there....and there is an excellent outline of Revelation there (Planet Preterist) as well....showing how it was already fulfulled. The outline is called "Outline to Covenant Eschatology"

Good luck!....and welcome to the preterist understanding of eschatology. It's quite a bumpy road.

remember, Russel, Smith, Baker, and Miller were all called heretics in the 19th centry.

 

[EchoPneuma]

remember, Russel, Smith, Baker, and Miller were all called heretics in the 19th centry.

Enlighten me. Who are these 4 men?

 

[buddy mack]

Enlighten me. Who are these 4 men?

Russell, founder of the jehovah witness. Smith, founder of the LDS, Baker, Christian Science. and Miller, 7th day advents. I could throw in the founders of the modern pentecostals, from out of Cleveland TN, but i cant remember the name of their snakes.

 

[EchoPneuma]

Russell, founder of the jehovah witness. Smith, founder of the LDS, Baker, Christian Science. and Miller, 7th day advents. I could throw in the founders of the modern pentecostals, from out of Cleveland TN, but i cant remember the name of their snakes.

Sorry to put you on the spot. Thanks for clarifying. So you put preterists in the same camp as JW's, LDS. Christian Scientists and SDA's?

 

[stauron]

I grew up in futurist churches with constant Rapture scares and Sunday night services devoted to those cruddy Thief in the Night movies, and now as an adult I find myself increasingly skeptical about the Left Behind theology. I think preterism seems to make the most sense, but I'm curious what preterists do about all the plagues and judgements in Revelation. I mean, okay, they already happened and apply to what Nero did to the Christians, but what, for example, do the weird locust-monsters refer to in Revelation 9? (Talk about a source for childhood nightmares, btw). Can someone answer and/or point me in a direction to get answers?

preterist archive is a great place to get info.

There are also several great books that can help with the transition. Where did you run into preterism?

 

[gort]

It wasn't Augustus who said that...it was Luke in Chapter 2 Verse 1. Look at it in different translations and see how the word is translated.

King James Version (KJV)
Luke 2
1And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.

New International Version (NIV)
Luke 2
1In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world

New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Luke 2
1Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth. .

Yes, it is something that came "from Caeser, went out from Caeser"
Luke is telling that which came from Caeser. Like a news reporter would.

Was Rome the entirety of the known world at this time?

Did Rome have enemies at the time?

I don't understand what point you're trying to make here? Clarify.

To differentiate between perceptions.

Yet, you say the greek word HARPAZO means "to be caught UP"? Show me UP in any part of that defintion. It ISN'T THERE. It has been translated WRONG.

1Th 4:17 Then1899 we2249 which are alive2198 and remain4035 shall be caught up726 together260 with4862 them846 in1722 the clouds3507 to meet1519, 529 the3588 Lord2962 in1519 the air:109 and2532 so3779 shall we ever3842 be2071 with4862 the Lord.2962 KJV

G726
&#945;&#788;&#961;&#960;&#945;&#769;&#950;&#969;
harpazo&#772;
har-pad'-zo
From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.
MKJV

1Th 4:17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
ASV

1Th 4:17 Next, all of us who are still alive will be taken up into the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the sky. From that time on we will all be with the Lord forever.
CEV

and lastly, the finnish version....

1Th 4:17 sitten meidät, jotka olemme elossa, jotka olemme jääneet tänne, temmataan yhdessä heidän kanssaan pilvissä Herraa vastaan yläilmoihin; ja niin me saamme aina olla Herran kanssa.

All these versions are mis-translated? These are the only versions I have to check from. Can you provide something substantial that this has been translated wrong?

No, it isn't. It means exactly the same in each context.

air:

H8064
&#1513;&#1473;&#1502;&#1492; &#1513;&#1473;&#1502;&#1497;&#1501;
sha&#770;mayim sha&#770;meh
shaw-mah'-yim, shaw-meh'
The second form being dual of an unused singular; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve): - air, X astrologer, heaven (-s).

H7307
&#1512;&#1493;&#1468;&#1495;
ru&#770;ach
roo'-akh
From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions): - air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).

G3772
&#959;&#965;&#787;&#961;&#945;&#957;&#959;&#769;&#962;
ouranos
oo-ran-os'
Perhaps from the same as G3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension heaven (as the abode of God); by implication happiness, power, eternity; specifically the Gospel (Christianity): - air, heaven ([-ly]), sky.

G109
&#945;&#787;&#951;&#769;&#961;
ae&#772;r
ah-ayr'
From &#945;&#787;&#769;&#951;&#956;&#953; ae&#772;mi (to breathe unconsciously, that is, respire; by analogy to blow); “air” (as naturally circumambient): - air. Compare G5594.

In this verse 'air' is translated as 'ouranos'. G3772

Mat 6:26 Behold the birds of the air; for they sow not, nor do they reap, nor gather into barns. Yet your heavenly Father feeds them; are you not much better than they are?
-----------------------------------------------------------
In this verse 'air' is translated as H8064

Gen 7:3 Also take of the fowls of the air by sevens, the male and the female, to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.
-----------------------------------------------------------

In this verse 'air' is translated as H7307

Job 41:16 One is so near to another, that no air can come between them.

------------------------------------------------------
In this verse 'air' is translated as G109

Act 22:23 And as they cried out, and cast off their clothes, and threw dust into the air,
------------------------------------------------------

And G109 is also used in this verse:

Eph 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience;
-------------------------------------------------------

In the case of G109 I cannot see where anything 'spiritual' is indicated.

Other examples of G109 used in Scripture:


1Co 9:26 So then I run, not as if I were uncertain. And so I fight, not as one who beats the air.

1Co 14:9 So also you, if you do not give a clear word through the language, how will it be known what is being said? For you will be speaking into the air.


Rev 9:2 And it opened the bottomless pit. And there arose a smoke out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace. And the sun and air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit.


Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air. And a great voice came out of the temple of Heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done!




1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.

There are different contexts for the word 'air'. I can see from surrounding context there is nothing 'spiritual' about G109




<><

btw, sorry I have'nt been able to reply to all of your posts the past couple days. I've been busy.

 

[EchoPneuma]

Yes, it is something that came "from Caeser, went out from Caeser"
Luke is telling that which came from Caeser. Like a news reporter would.

Was Rome the entirety of the known world at this time?

Did Rome have enemies at the time?

How does what you say change what I showed as to the meaning of the word "oikoumene? I showed that in the bible the word doesn't mean the whole planet but the whole Roman Empire. So when Jesus said the "whole world" (oikoumene) had to hear the gospel before He returned, He meant the whole ROMAN EMPIRE...not the whole planet. And Paul says that the gospel had been preached to the whole world (oikoumene) and was bearing fruit. So therefore the gospel HAD been preached unto the whole world before Jesus returned in 70AD.

and YES, the Roman Empire was the entirety of the known world at that time. It was a "worldwide" empire of that day. Yes, they had enemies, but as far as those people thought, the Empire was the known world.

G726
&#945;&#788;&#961;&#960;&#945;&#769;&#950;&#969;
harpazo&#772;
har-pad'-zo
From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

Ok, so now you change your definition since I showed you that the word "up" wasn't in the other one that you kept posting. Where did you get this one?

1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.
MKJV

1Th 4:17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
ASV

1Th 4:17 Next, all of us who are still alive will be taken up into the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the sky. From that time on we will all be with the Lord forever.
CEV

and lastly, the finnish version....

1Th 4:17 sitten meidät, jotka olemme elossa, jotka olemme jääneet tänne, temmataan yhdessä heidän kanssaan pilvissä Herraa vastaan yläilmoihin; ja niin me saamme aina olla Herran kanssa.

All these versions are mis-translated? These are the only versions I have to check from. Can you provide something substantial that this has been translated wrong?

The only thing I can provide is the original greek language it was written in. And the word HARPAZO that is translated "caught up" in english versions of the bible doesn't mean "caught up"....but "caught away". I frankly don't know WHY it's translated "up" instead of "away"....unless the translators were looking at it through futurist glasses and translated it the way they thought it SHOULD be instead of the way it WAS.

air:

H8064
&#1513;&#1473;&#1502;&#1492; &#1513;&#1473;&#1502;&#1497;&#1501;
sha&#770;mayim sha&#770;meh
shaw-mah'-yim, shaw-meh'
The second form being dual of an unused singular; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve): - air, X astrologer, heaven (-s).

H7307
&#1512;&#1493;&#1468;&#1495;
ru&#770;ach
roo'-akh
From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions): - air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y)

Now you've switched to Hebrew. We aren't talking about Hebrew...we're talking about the Greek of the New Testament and how the Greek word "aer" is used in the New Testament.

G3772
&#959;&#965;&#787;&#961;&#945;&#957;&#959;&#769;&#962;
ouranos
oo-ran-os'
Perhaps from the same as G3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension heaven (as the abode of God); by implication happiness, power, eternity; specifically the Gospel (Christianity): - air, heaven ([-ly]), sky.

Yes, this is the word "ouranos". It is the word the greeks used for "sky". That's not the word Paul uses when he says we will be "caught away" into the "air". So Paul doesn't say we will be "caught away" into the SKY or he would have used "ouranos". Instead he used "aer".

G109
&#945;&#787;&#951;&#769;&#961;
ae&#772;r
ah-ayr'
From &#945;&#787;&#769;&#951;&#956;&#953; ae&#772;mi (to breathe unconsciously, that is, respire; by analogy to blow); “air” (as naturally circumambient): - air. Compare G5594.

THIS is the word that Paul uses when he says we will be caught away into the "air". It means the circumambient air. That means the air right around you...NOT THE SKY. If Paul had meant sky he would have used "ouranos".

In this verse 'air' is translated as 'ouranos'. G3772

Mat 6:26 Behold the birds of the air; for they sow not, nor do they reap, nor gather into barns. Yet your heavenly Father feeds them; are you not much better than they are?

No, the word "ouranos" is translated AIR. It should have been translated "sky"....instead the translators said "air". I don't know why. "Sky" would have been better since the word "ouranos" was used.
-----------------------------------------------------------

In this verse 'air' is translated as H8064

Gen 7:3 Also take of the fowls of the air by sevens, the male and the female, to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

Now you're switching back to Hebrew again. You can't do that. We aren't talking about Hebrew, we're taking about the meanings of Greek words in the New Testament.
-----------------------------------------------------------

In this verse 'air' is translated as H7307

Job 41:16 One is so near to another, that no air can come between them.

Again, you're talking about Hebrew instead of Greek.

------------------------------------------------------

In this verse 'air' is translated as G109

Act 22:23 And as they cried out, and cast off their clothes, and threw dust into the air,
------------------------------------------------------

And G109 is also used in this verse:

Eph 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience;

Right, in both of THESE scriptures the greek word "aer" is used. See how it doesn't mean SKY? In Acts 22:23 it doesn't mean they threw dust into the SKY...it means they threw it into the air right around them. The "circumambient" air. And you can see the spiritual component to the word by Ephesians 2:2.

If Satan is the prince of the power of the "air" (aer)....what does "air" mean? Isn't Satan an invisible spirit being? That means he's the prince of the power of the invisible spiritual "air" all around you.

THAT is the way Paul used the word "aer" when he said we would be caught away into the "air". That greek word DOES NOT mean "sky" in any verse. It means the invisible circumambient "air" all around you. Paul doesn't say we are going to be "caught up into the sky"....but rather that we are going to be "caught away into the circumambient "air" all around us".
-------------------------------------------------------

In the case of G109 I cannot see where anything 'spiritual' is indicated.

Other examples of G109 used in Scripture:


1Co 9:26 So then I run, not as if I were uncertain. And so I fight, not as one who beats the air.

Right, he doesn't beat the air all around him. This doesn't mean "sky". We know he couldn't beat the sky.

1Co 14:9 So also you, if you do not give a clear word through the language, how will it be known what is being said? For you will be speaking into the air.

Right, they would be speaking into the air all around them. THis, once again, shows that the word "air" doesn't mean "sky".

Rev 9:2 And it opened the bottomless pit. And there arose a smoke out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace. And the sun and air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit.


Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air. And a great voice came out of the temple of Heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done!

Ok, this also shows that the word means that the sun was darkened and also the air all around them was darkened. This still doesn't mean "sky".

1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.

Every time Paul uses this greek word "aer" (which he uses in the above scripture) it means " the air around you"...we've just seen that by the scriptures you posted. Paul NEVER used the word to mean the "sky". When Paul means to say sky he uses "ouranos". So, in that scripture in 1 THes. Paul DOES NOT say that we are going to meet the Lord in the "sky". He says we aer going to meet the Lord in the "aer"...meaning the invisible air all around you....the circumambient air. What do you think it means to be "caught away to meet the Lord in the invisible air all around you"? Sure sounds like a spiritual event to me. Sounds like what we experience now when we come to know Jesus today. We are immediately caught away into the spiritual kingdom of Jesus which is all around us in the spirit realm...and is now within us.

There are different contexts for the word 'air'. I can see from surrounding context there is nothing 'spiritual' about G109

Yes, there are different contexts for the greek word "aer"....but in each scripture it always means the circumambient air all around you. It doesn't mean the sky. If "sky" is meant....then the apostles used "ouranos"...which was the word for "sky".

btw, sorry I have'nt been able to reply to all of your posts the past couple days. I've been busy.

No worries. It isn't going anywhere. Just get back when you can. By the by, I am enjoying the debate . I haven't done this since college...and then it was over a lectern ....and not on a computer. This is quite different

 

[gort]

and YES, the Roman Empire was the entirety of the known world at that time. It was a "worldwide" empire of that day. Yes, they had enemies, but as far as those people thought, the Empire was the known world.

Then how could we take into context of the entire known world as the Roman empire, and the enemies of the Roman empire would not be part of said empire, and Augustus could not impose taxes on the enemies of the Roman empire.

Ok, so now you change your definition since I showed you that the word "up" wasn't in the other one that you kept posting. Where did you get this one?

The first definitions came from my computer at work. Blueletterbible.com is my reference there.

This other one you question if from esword.net which I have here on my puter at home. www.esword.net

The only thing I can provide is the original greek language it was written in. And the word HARPAZO that is translated "caught up" in english versions of the bible doesn't mean "caught up"....but "caught away". I frankly don't know WHY it's translated "up" instead of "away"....unless the translators were looking at it through futurist glasses and translated it the way they thought it SHOULD be instead of the way it WAS.

Then that would be your preterist interpretation. However, as the 2 angels had said that the return of Jesus would liken to His departure, the view of a physical return is completely compatabile (sp?) with 'harpazo'

Right, in both of THESE scriptures the greek word "aer" is used. See how it doesn't mean SKY? In Acts 22:23 it doesn't mean they threw dust into the SKY...it means they threw it into the air right around them. The "circumambient" air. And you can see the spiritual component to the word by Ephesians 2:2.

There is no spiritual component to 'air'. It is perhaps satan that flits about the air, but the 'air' itself is devoid of spiritual content. It is as an ocean, so to speak as the definitions given have shown.

Job 1:7 And Jehovah said to Satan, From where do you come? Then Satan answered Jehovah and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

This verse from Job is an example.

Every time Paul uses this greek word "aer" (which he uses in the above scripture) it means " the air around you"...we've just seen that by the scriptures you posted. Paul NEVER used the word to mean the "sky". When Paul means to say sky he uses "ouranos". So, in that scripture in 1 THes. Paul DOES NOT say that we are going to meet the Lord in the "sky". He says we aer going to meet the Lord in the "aer"...meaning the invisible air all around you....the circumambient air. What do you think it means to be "caught away to meet the Lord in the invisible air all around you"? Sure sounds like a spiritual event to me. Sounds like what we experience now when we come to know Jesus today. We are immediately caught away into the spiritual kingdom of Jesus which is all around us in the spirit realm...and is now within us.

Yes, we are in the Spiritual kingdom but only because the Holy SPirit is given and indwells us.

Yes, there are different contexts for the greek word "aer"....but in each scripture it always means the circumambient air all around you. It doesn't mean the sky. If "sky" is meant....then the apostles used "ouranos"...which was the word for "sky".

We live and breathe in an ocean of air, a fluid we cannot live without. It carries currents, the birds fly in it, and the devil flits about in it, seeking to destroy. I find all the definitions of air to be nothing more than that. I know it's an important concept for you.

No worries. It isn't going anywhere. Just get back when you can. By the by, I am enjoying the debate . I haven't done this since college...and then it was over a lectern ....and not on a computer. This is quite different

This medium can suck sometimes. I would liken it to nothing more than what B.C. did. Carving stone letters and sending it floating across the big pond. Only we get to use smilies.....

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