How I came to embrace Preterism.

[gort]

OK, then. Look at Luke 21 IN CONTEXT.



Luke 21

Signs of the End of the Age

5Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6"As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down." This is a specific prophecy from Jesus concerning the temple they were standing there looking at and commenting on. Herod's temple.

7"Teacher," they asked, "when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?" Ok, so the disciples ask Him a SPECIFIC QUESTION about the prophecy He just gave. "Tell us the signs that we will know the temple is about to be thrown down and destroyed. When will it happen?"

8He replied:(and now Jesus begins His reply to their specific question about what are the signs that the temple is about to be destroyed) "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and, 'The time is near.'(for the destruction of the temple) Do not follow them. 9When you hear of wars and revolutions, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away." The end of what? The end of the temple. That's the question He is answering. IN CONTEXT.

10Then he said to them: "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven. He was correct. Josephus relates these things happening before the destruction of the temple

12"But before all this,(before what? Before those things He just listed in verse 11) they will lay hands on you and persecute you. They will deliver you to synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. 13This will result in your being witnesses to them.(This also happened to them. Read about it in Acts) 14But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. 15For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. 16You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death.(True, they did martyr some of them) 17All men will hate you because of me. 18But not a hair of your head will perish.(True, none of them perished. They were saved. John 3:16) 19By standing firm you will gain life.

20"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.(They saw this happening during the Roman Jewish Wars. Titus surrounded the city and built seige ramps against it)21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.(They did. History records that they fled to the City of Pella, east of the Jordan River.) 22For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.(Remember, Jesus is still answering their specific question concerning the temple being destroyed and how they will know it's about to happen. Then He says that it's the time of punishment in FULFILLMENT OF ALL THAT'S BEEN WRITTEN". ALL not most, or some....but ALL.) 23How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!(Yeah, it was. Josephus recounts women having to eat their afterbirth and their babies in order to survive the famine. It was horrible.) There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations.(It happened. The Romans destroyed the Jewish temple and nation and dispersed them worldwide to all countries) Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. The "time of the Gentiles" was over when God's wrath was completely poured out on Apostate Israel and the New Covenant was established. Now there is neither Jew NOR GENTILE in the Kingdom.

25"There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken.(Notice there is no break here. Jesus just continues answering the question the disciples asked about the temple. He's describing the destruction of the Jewish nation in Jewish prophetic hyperbole and imagery the same way the OT prophets did) 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.(See? Jesus links it all together. He says "AT THAT TIME"....what time? The time when you see these things happening. What things? The things He describes in the preceeding verses. The city being surrounded. People fleeing to the mountains, the temple being destroyed, people being in anguish etc) 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."



29He told them this parable: "Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. He is STILL answering their question. No breaks in his answer. No indictation that He's switching from talking to them and answering their question, to talking about some far off distant generation of people. Read it IN CONTEXT.



32"I tell you the truth, THIS generation will certainly not pass away until ALL these things have happened. 33Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.



Notice He didn't say "that generation" or "some generation"....but "THIS generation". What generation? Well, IN CONTEXT....the generation that would see the signs He just recounted. The generation that saw the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. The generation of 70AD. And He said THAT generation (of 70AD) would not pass away until ALL these things had happened. INCLUDING THE SECOND COMING. In context of His answer to the disciple's question. 34"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on YOU unexpectedly like a trap.(Notice He didn't say "them"....but "you". Speaking to the disciples who had asked Him the question.) 35For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth(And it did. To the Jews their heaven and earth were gone. Plus the Roman Empire was the known world of that day)36Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man." Notice He says "about to happen".....not going to happen sometime thousands of years in the future. He's still answering their question. IN CONTEXT.

Now, show me in that passage where Jesus changes contexts and starts talking about something else or some future generation, besides the specific question the disciples asked Him in verse 7 about His prophecy concerning the temple?



All eyes did see Him. All enlightened spiritual eyes. SOME fleshly eyes did too. Those who pierced Him. (The Romans and Apostate Jews)

I had some questions unanswered in post 228 of this thread, if you could address those please. Thanx

I'd like to get clarification pertaining to:

1. 'being caught up'
2. Scripture for a spiritual invisible return
3. Clarification on Acts 1 where the disciples are told of the visible return by the angels and how can this be construed as a invisible return?




http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=18943807&postcount=228

 

[stauron]

Rev 1:7 Behold, He comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, and those who pierced Him will see Him, and all the kindreds of the earth will wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Mat 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of Man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.

Notice also that all the tribes of the earth shall mourn. A reborn heart needs not mourn, but rejoices!!!

The interesting thing is that "all the tribes of the earth" can be better or at least equally translated "all the tribes of the land" and is equated with "those who pierced Him". Darby and Young's translations pick up the land rather than earth and show the parallelism.

Every eye, all the tribes of the land and those who pierced Him are all equated and are the same group.

But again, the main issue is the must happen soon and the time is near. What was the event that happened soon after John wrote Revelation that caused them to wail and mourn?

 

[gort]

Luke 21

Signs of the End of the Age

5Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6"As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down." This is a specific prophecy from Jesus concerning the temple they were standing there looking at and commenting on. Herod's temple.

agreed

7"Teacher," they asked, "when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?" Ok, so the disciples ask Him a SPECIFIC QUESTION about the prophecy He just gave. "Tell us the signs that we will know the temple is about to be thrown down and destroyed. When will it happen?"

agreed. about the temple only.

8He repliedand now Jesus begins His reply to their specific question about what are the signs that the temple is about to be destroyed) "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and, 'The time is near.'(for the destruction of the temple) Do not follow them. 9When you hear of wars and revolutions, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away." The end of what? The end of the temple. That's the question He is answering. IN CONTEXT.

agreed

Luk 21:9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end [is] not by and by.

let's add v.9

10Then he said to them: "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven. He was correct. Josephus relates these things happening before the destruction of the temple

agreed. Josephus tells of this. I'll come back to this later....

20"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.(They saw this happening during the Roman Jewish Wars. Titus surrounded the city and built seige ramps against it)21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.(They did. History records that they fled to the City of Pella, east of the Jordan River.) 22For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.(Remember, Jesus is still answering their specific question concerning the temple being destroyed and how they will know it's about to happen. Then He says that it's the time of punishment in

FULFILLMENT OF ALL THAT'S BEEN WRITTEN". ALL not most, or some....but ALL.)

23How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!(Yeah, it was. Josephus recounts women having to eat their afterbirth and their babies in order to survive the famine. It was horrible.) There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations.(It happened. The Romans destroyed the Jewish temple and nation and dispersed them worldwide to all countries) Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. The "time of the Gentiles" was over when God's wrath was completely poured out on Apostate Israel and the New Covenant was established. Now there is neither Jew NOR GENTILE in the Kingdom.

That which I put in bold is the crux of the matter.

Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

Notice He speaks of the whole world.

Now, show me in that passage where Jesus changes contexts and starts talking about something else or some future generation, besides the specific question the disciples asked Him in verse 7 about His prophecy concerning the temple?

In v.35 He speaks of context. In the entirety of the bible, we read of the origin of man, and how sin came into the world. In the book of Revelation, we see the finality of sin, the author of evil, and those who are cast into the LOF, rejecting God's grace.

While Josephus wrote of what he saw, I'll not argue. But at the time, had the gospel been preached to the entire world? To all?

Has satan today been cast into the lake of fire?
Has The Judgement day happened yet where all the books have been opened?

Has heaven and earth passed away? v.35

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Had the times of the Gentiles been fulfilled by 70 a.d.? If so, then are we out of the loop? We would have to be if the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. yes? no?

Israel was scattered at that time throughout the world. Earlier last century they started coming back, to re-assemble. Today we can see the signs pointing to a final conflict where all the kings of the earth will assemble against Israel.

From the preterist view, did all the kings of the earth gather together at Megido? Or was it just at the temple?



<><

 

[gort]

Stauron quotes:

The interesting thing is that "all the tribes of the earth" can be better or at least equally translated "all the tribes of the land" and is equated with "those who pierced Him". Darby and Young's translations pick up the land rather than earth and show the parallelism.

Every eye, all the tribes of the land and those who pierced Him are all equated and are the same group.

This conflicts with the spiritual return and how 'some' of the non-spiritual will also see, against reading the plain language of 'All eyes will see', and 'All the tribes of the earth shall mourn'.

I'm having a problem also, reconciling from the futurist view, how 'all' the unregenerate will see the 2nd coming. This would include 'those who pierced him'.

My problem is I know it's in the NT, but I have'nt touched the NT for about 8 months, as I'm deep into my studies of the OT. Rest assured, I'll keep you posted

But again, the main issue is the must happen soon and the time is near. What was the event that happened soon after John wrote Revelation that caused them to wail and mourn?

If the preterist view is 70 ad, then the problem of the entire world and the sin contained within it is still left un-reconciled.

If the futurist view of the end times is still ahead, and at the visible return of Christ Jesus is viewed by all in the world, then I can reconcile Scritpure.

As with the 5 virgins who did'nt keep their lamps full, the door is shut. Much to mourn about.

<><

 

[gort]

Hmmm........

Can one of the preterists here explain to me the reconciliation of all things to God?

IOW, the end of evil, how it is done away with, etc.?

thanx



<><

 

[EchoPneuma]

agreed



agreed. about the temple only.



agreed



let's add v.9



agreed. Josephus tells of this. I'll come back to this later....

Ok, so we agree all this way. Then suddenly....

That which I put in bold is the crux of the matter.

Why? It's in the context of what He's saying. He says that this time of punishment on the Jews is to fulfill ALL that's been written. The fact that Jesus makes this bold statement goes against the futurist view. He clearly says that the punishment that was going to come upon Israel when the temple was destroyed was the FULFILLMENT of ALL that's been written. He didnt stutter. He said it plain. It can't be twisted to mean anything else but what it says.

Notice He speaks of the whole world

Yes, I noticed that. He's speaking of the WHOLE Jewish "world". Remember, He was answering a SPECIFIC QUESTION asked by His JEWISH disciples about their JEWISH temple in their JEWISH country. Keep it in CONTEXT. And also the Roman Empire was the entire KNOWN WORLD of that day. So Him saying that the Romans (the agressors and conquerors of the whole known world) were going to destroy the nation of Israel (their whole world) is stated as - this calamity was coming upon the "whole world". Not meaning the globe.

In v.35 He speaks of context. In the entirety of the bible, we read of the origin of man, and how sin came into the world. In the book of Revelation, we see the finality of sin, the author of evil, and those who are cast into the LOF, rejecting God's grace.

Oh, so NOW the context has to be the WHOLE BIBLE?? Why can't you just admit that in the context of that passage in Luke 21, that Jesus puts His second Coming at the time of the destruction of the temple and the conquering and destruction of the nation of Israel? It's unmistakeable.

While Josephus wrote of what he saw, I'll not argue. But at the time, had the gospel been preached to the entire world? To all?

Colossians 1:22-24

22But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Colossians 1:6
that has come to you. All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and understood God's grace in all its truth.


According to Paul.....YES. It was proclaimed throughout the whole world of that day. This is exactly the same word Jesus uses when He says that it's going to be proclaimed thoughtout the whole world and then the end will come. It's the greek word for used for the Roman Empire. The same word used in "Caesar Augustus issued a decree that the WHOLE WORLD should be taxed". That wasn't the whole globe. It was the whole Roman Empiire...which was the known world of that day. That is the word Jesus used and that is th word Paul used in Col. 1:6. So YES...it HAD been.

Has satan today been cast into the lake of fire?
Has The Judgement day happened yet where all the books have been opened?

Yes and yes. The bible says "the LAST enemy to be destroyed is death." Has Jesus destroyed death? Well, if death is the LAST enemy to be destroyed....and He HAS already destroyed death...then that means that Satan was destroyed before that. So, yes...Satan is in the Lake of Fire at this minute. and judgement day has passed for those first century people who awaited His return.

Has heaven and earth passed away? v.35

Yes. The JEWISH heaven (the temple) and earth (their nation) has passed away. Look in the OT at how "heaven and earth" are used by the prophets. It was used to mean the Jewish nation and system of worship. Jesus was a JEWISH PROPHET and spoke to JEWS about the JEWISH NATION. It has to be interpreted in that light. THey listened to their PROPHETS. Allow the bible to interpret itself.

Had the times of the Gentiles been fulfilled by 70 a.d.? If so, then are we out of the loop? We would have to be if the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. yes? no?

No, we not out of any loop. If you are a Christian you are abiding in the everlasting Kingdom of God that is within your own heart. Remember, in the kingdom there is no "Jew or gentile, free or slave, male nor female...but we are all one in CHrist". The "Time of the Gentiles" was that period of time when God turned over the nation of Israel for destruction by GENTILES and destroyed the old things...when the new covenant was ushered in and the kingdom was established...that ended the "time of the Gentiles" because in Christ there is no such thing anymore. We are all one people. No dividing wall any more.

Israel was scattered at that time throughout the world. Earlier last century they started coming back, to re-assemble. Today we can see the signs pointing to a final conflict where all the kings of the earth will assemble against Israel.

Why do you think there will be ANOTHER final conflict? The final conflict already happened in 70. That ENDED the Jewish nation, Old Covenant Israel and temple sacrifices forever. Even Jewish rabbis will tell you that the modern nation of Israel isn't OT Israel and what they have today isn't biblical Judaism. They've NEVER re-instituted the sacrificial system. It's gone. The final battle has already happened. The new covenant is HERE. "All things have become new".

From the preterist view, did all the kings of the earth gather together at Megido? Or was it just at the temple?

All the kings of the earth, in context, would have been all the kings of the Roman Empire....against Israel. It happened. Read Josephus and see what he says about the Valley of Megiddo. It was a slaughtering place. He says there was so much blood the plain looked red. Titus and his army took and destroyed the temple itself.

 

[EchoPneuma]

I had some questions unanswered in post 228 of this thread, if you could address those please. Thanx

I'd like to get clarification pertaining to:

1. 'being caught up'

I already stated that there is no word "up" in the greek. It's not there. It's being "caught away"....not up. They were caught away into the spiritual kingdom that was ushered in upon Jesus' return. It was a invisible, spiritual event. Just like today. When you are saved today you are immediately "caught away" into the kingdom of God, but no one sees a thing with their physical eyes. You are "raptured" into the heavenly kingdom and "resurrected" from death to life. Yet, none of these things can be seen. They are spiritual events.

2. Scripture for a spiritual invisible return

By very nature, if it's a spiritual return....it would be invisible. Look at this:

John 14:19
Before long, the world will not see me ANYMORE, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.

Jesus says right there that the world will not see Him ANYMORE....but that the disciples WILL see Him. The same way we "see" Him today. With the eyes of our heart....the same eyes Paul talked about here:

Ephesians 1:18
I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,

3. Clarification on Acts 1 where the disciples are told of the visible return by the angels and how can this be construed as a invisible return?

YOu're reading something into the text that isn't there. Where does it say that the return will be visible to everyone on earth? It says "in like manner".

He was taken up in front of a few witnesses.
He was taken up and a cloud HID HIM FROM THEIR PHYSICAL SIGHT.

So, if He returns in "like manner"....only a few will see it physically, but the majority will have it hidden from their physical eyes and only see it with their spiritual "eyes" of the heart.....where He abides.

 

[EchoPneuma]

Hmmm........

Can one of the preterists here explain to me the reconciliation of all things to God?

IOW, the end of evil, how it is done away with, etc.?

thanx



<><

Hebrews 9:25-27

25Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment

Jesus has "done away with sin". As far as God is concerned....sin is paid for. It's done away with.

2 Corinthians 5:19
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

I think the key to understanding this is in the little phrase "in CHrist". He's reconciling the world to Himself IN CHRIST....and then He qualifies by telling what that reconciliation is... "not counting men's sins against them".

This goes with the scripture out of Hebrews above. Sin is done away with. Paid for. God isn't going to hold men's sins against them. Jesus was judged for the sins of men. There is no double jeopardy. God is just.

That's why I said there is a difference between sin and evil. Jesus didn't die for evil. Jesus died for sins. Mens' SINS will never be counted against them....but if they die while committing evil they will be condemned. Evil is trying to get to heaven apart from Jesus. That's why the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the UNFORGIVEABLE sin. ...because it's a sin that is EVIL. The Holy Spirit's ministry is to draw people to Jesus for salvation. If someone rejects that call and "blasphemes" the Spirit (blaspheme means to call someone a liar) then THAT evil will never be forgiven.

 

[gort]

No, we not out of any loop. If you are a Christian you are abiding in the everlasting Kingdom of God that is within your own heart. Remember, in the kingdom there is no "Jew or gentile, free or slave, male nor female...but we are all one in CHrist". The "Time of the Gentiles" was that period of time when God turned over the nation of Israel for destruction by GENTILES and destroyed the old things...when the new covenant was ushered in and the kingdom was established...that ended the "time of the Gentiles" because in Christ there is no such thing anymore. We are all one people. No dividing wall any more.

Was the time of the Gentiles fulfilled at that time?

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

According to Paul.....YES. It was proclaimed throughout the whole world of that day. This is exactly the same word Jesus uses when He says that it's going to be proclaimed thoughtout the whole world and then the end will come. It's the greek word for used for the Roman Empire. The same word used in "Caesar Augustus issued a decree that the WHOLE WORLD should be taxed". That wasn't the whole globe. It was the whole Roman Empiire...which was the known world of that day. That is the word Jesus used and that is th word Paul used in Col. 1:6. So YES...it HAD been.

There is a difference between 'the gospel is bearing fruit all over the world' and the 'gospel being preached all over the world.' In the context of the entirety of the world, the gospel had not yet been preach to its fullest extent. There was much more to the known world besides the Roman empire.

Why do you think there will be ANOTHER final conflict? The final conflict already happened in 70. That ENDED the Jewish nation, Old Covenant Israel and temple sacrifices forever. Even Jewish rabbis will tell you that the modern nation of Israel isn't OT Israel and what they have today isn't biblical Judaism. They've NEVER re-instituted the sacrificial system. It's gone. The final battle has already happened. The new covenant is HERE. "All things have become new".

So you want to tell me that God still accepted animal sacrifices up until the destruction of the Temple?

The Old covenant was done away with on the Cross. Quite a few years earlier than the destruction.

All the kings of the earth, in context, would have been all the kings of the Roman Empire....against Israel. It happened. Read Josephus and see what he says about the Valley of Megiddo. It was a slaughtering place. He says there was so much blood the plain looked red. Titus and his army took and destroyed the temple itself.

I'll look into it. All I read was about Jerusalem itself. Josephus wrote many volumes. Too many.

I already stated that there is no word "up" in the greek. It's not there. It's being "caught away"....not up. They were caught away into the spiritual kingdom that was ushered in upon Jesus' return. It was a invisible, spiritual event. Just like today. When you are saved today you are immediately "caught away" into the kingdom of God, but no one sees a thing with their physical eyes. You are "raptured" into the heavenly kingdom and "resurrected" from death to life. Yet, none of these things can be seen. They are spiritual events.

I disagree.



1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

'shall be caught up'


harpazo {har-pad'-zo} Strongs#726
1) to seize, carry off by force

2) to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly

3) to snatch out or away


Notice we are caught up to meet Jesus in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.

YOu're reading something into the text that isn't there. Where does it say that the return will be visible to everyone on earth? It says "in like manner".

He was taken up in front of a few witnesses.
He was taken up and a cloud HID HIM FROM THEIR PHYSICAL SIGHT.

So, if He returns in "like manner"....only a few will see it physically, but the majority will have it hidden from their physical eyes and only see it with their spiritual "eyes" of the heart.....where He abides.

We still have to reconcile that the disciples physically with their eyes saw Him ascend, and the 2 dressed in white told them specifically that is how they would see Him come back. We are told that "ALL EYES" will see Him when He returns, and not just a few.

This goes with the scripture out of Hebrews above. Sin is done away with. Paid for. God isn't going to hold men's sins against them. Jesus was judged for the sins of men. There is no double jeopardy. God is just.

That's why I said there is a difference between sin and evil. Jesus didn't die for evil. Jesus died for sins. Mens' SINS will never be counted against them....but if they die while committing evil they will be condemned. Evil is trying to get to heaven apart from Jesus. That's why the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the UNFORGIVEABLE sin. ...because it's a sin that is EVIL. The Holy Spirit's ministry is to draw people to Jesus for salvation. If someone rejects that call and "blasphemes" the Spirit (blaspheme means to call someone a liar) then THAT evil will never be forgiven.

Today sin is still in the world and all things are not yet reconciled to God. Were satan in the lake of fire, then satan and his deceptions would not be abundant in the world today.

Evil and sin are synonamous. To sin is to do evil in the sight of God.

There is still death in the world. Had 'Death and Hell' been cast into the LOF, there would be no death.

Death still has its grip on the unsaved. Death would no longer have a sting for those who are not saved if death was cast into the LOF.


<><

 

[preterist1us]

Good post EchoPneuma
It is very important to understand the hebrew thought process when grasping this. When attempting to explain that Jesus returned at the fall of the Old World of Judaism in 70 AD, one of the first objections offered is Revelation 1:7, "Behold, he cometh with the clouds and every eye shall see him, and they also that pierced him, and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him."

Let us examine this passage in its context and seek to discover its true significance.

Historical Background. It seems to have escaped the notice of those who offer Revelation 1:7 as proof of a yet future coming of Jesus that this verse is taken directly out of the book of Zechariah. Surely most Bible student will want to be fully aware of how the verse is used in those contexts.

Interestingly, John the author of Revelation used Zechariah. In confirmation of the time frame of Jesus coming with the clouds in judgment John used Zechariah something the Jews all know. Notice also the language. We can do that quite easily by looking at Zechariah 12:10-14. It speaks of those who pierced him.

And I will pour out on the house of David, and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and prayers. And they (i.e., the inhabitants of Jerusalem) shall look on Me whom they have pierced, and shall mourn for Him. As one mourns for an only son, and will be bitter over Him like the bitterness over the firstborn. In that day (i.e., when they look on Him whom they had pierced) the mourning in Jerusalem will be great, like the mourning of Hadad-rimmon in the valley of Megiddo. And the land shall mourn, families by families alone; the family of the house of David alone, and their wives alone; the family of Nathan alone, and their wives alone; the family of the house of Levi alone, and their wives alone; the family of Shimei alone, and their wives alone; all the families who are left, family by family alone, and their wives alone.
​

Obviously, this is the foundation for John’s "every eye will see Him and those who pierced Him, and all the tribes of the earth (or land) will wail due to Him." The Hebrew word for "family" is mishpachah and it means "family; by extension a tribe or people." So, in essence, Zechariah was saying that the "tribes of the land" would mourn for Him whom they had pierced. Who were those "tribes?" "The inhabitants of Jerusalem." This also helps us identify the "earth" in Revelation 1:7. According to Zechariah, the "earth" is the land of Palestine, specifically, Jerusalem. Also, it is those tribes, i.e., the nation of Israel, who would "look on Me whom they had pierced." And because of that, "the mourning in Jerusalem" would be great. With all of this information, we can see that the "tribes of the earth" in Revelation 1:7 are the nation of Israel. The "earth" is Palestine. The land that would mourn is Jerusalem.

So, the main purpose of Revelation would be to reveal Jesus the nation of Israel. It is important to note a passage in Revelation 1 texts is related to the Zechariah 12.

 

[preterist1us]

Death would no longer have a sting for those who are not saved.

Were in the Bible does it say this?

 

[gort]

Death would no longer have a sting for those who are not saved.

Were in the Bible does it say this?

Sorry. my bad. It's been corrected on that post to say:

Death still has its grip on the unsaved. Death would no longer have a sting for those who are not saved if death was cast into the LOF.

<><

 

[EchoPneuma]

Was the time of the Gentiles fulfilled at that time?

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Yes, it was fulfilled at that time.

There is a difference between 'the gospel is bearing fruit all over the world' and the 'gospel being preached all over the world.' In the context of the entirety of the world, the gospel had not yet been preach to its fullest extent. There was much more to the known world besides the Roman empire.

Do you read what I write? I showed the scripture where Paul said that the gospel had been preached to every creature under heaven. That's sounds like the whole known world of that day. It fulfilled what Jesus said had to be done before He could come back. That it had to be preached unto the "whole world".

And if the gospel is "bearing fruit all over the world"....then wouldn't that mean it had been PREACHED ALL OVER THE WORLD? How could it bear fruit if they hadn't heard it?

So you want to tell me that God still accepted animal sacrifices up until the destruction of the Temple?

Well, Josephus says they still offered them daily right up until the time the temple was destroyed. As long as the temple was standing, that meant the sacrificial system was still in place.

The Old covenant was done away with on the Cross. Quite a few years earlier than the destruction.

Yes, Jesus nailed it to the cross. But the book of Hebrews makes it clear that as long as the earthly temple was still standing...the way into the most holy place in heaven had not yet been opened. THat's why it was so important for it to be destroyed. It was GOd's visible sign to the Jews that the Old Covenant was abolished and the way into Heaven was opened through Jesus.

I disagree.

Why? What part to you disagree with?

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

'shall be caught up'


harpazo {har-pad'-zo} Strongs#726
1) to seize, carry off by force

2) to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly

3) to snatch out or away


Notice we are caught up to meet Jesus in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.

Why do you keep saying that we are caught UP? The word for "up" isn't in the original Greek. It may say "up" in your english bible, but that word isn't in the original language. It says "caught away"....NOT UP. Do you understand.

So get the idea out of your mind that we are going to be caught up in the sky. That's not what is said there.

I already said that the word for "air" in greek means "invisible spiritual air around you". So, this being "caught away" into the "air" is an invisible event. THere is NO indication in scripture that it's physical.

We still have to reconcile that the disciples physically with their eyes saw Him ascend, and the 2 dressed in white told them specifically that is how they would see Him come back. We are told that "ALL EYES" will see Him when He returns, and not just a few.

Yes, they saw Him ascend. But the angels didn't say He would return EXACTLY the same way. They said in like manner. What was the manner? And I already said that "all spiritual eyes" will see Him and SOME physical eyes will. Did you read that scripture from Paul about "eyes of the heart"? You keep looking for a physical fulfillment of a spiritual event. The first century Jews made the same mistake. Jesus kept trying to tell the that it was all about invisible spiritual realities and not physical things.

Today sin is still in the world and all things are not yet reconciled to God. Were satan in the lake of fire, then satan and his deceptions would not be abundant in the world today.

THe bible says that it is the heart of MEN that is desperately wicked ABOVE ALL THINGS and that men sin because they are carried away by their OWN evil desires. Sin is in the world today because of the evil hearts of men. Satan is in the Lake of Fire. He is a defeated foe. If not, then Jesus hasn't defeated death either...because the last enemy to be destroyed was death according to the bible. Has Jesus defeated death? Didn't He rise from the dead?

Evil and sin are synonamous. To sin is to do evil in the sight of God.

No, they aren't synonymous. They are different. Look throughout the bible at how they are used. All evil is sin...but not all sin is evil.

There is still death in the world. Had 'Death and Hell' been cast into the LOF, there would be no death.

1 Corinthians 15:55-57 55"Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?" 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ

Jesus conquered death and the grave. The death that is spoken about is spiritual death. Death (spiritual) and Hades HAVE been cast into the Lake of Fire. It happened when He led "captivity captive" and emptied out Sheo/Hades of the OT saints. Then he cast Hades/Sheol into the Lake of Fire because the only thing left in Hades/SHeol at that point were the unbelievers.

Death still has its grip on the unsaved. Death would no longer have a sting for those who are not saved.

Where do you get that? Jesus conquered death. That doesn't mean that it doesn't still affect unbelievers. We have victory THROUGH Jesus Christ.

 

[preterist1us]

Quote

Death still has its grip on the unsaved. Death would no longer have a sting for those who are not saved if death was cast into the LOF.

Were is the verse that say this?

 

[gort]

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the sword's edge. And shall be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the nations until the times of the nations is fulfilled.

As a futurist I would see it as when all the Gentile are called in to embrace Jesus.

So, looking more at this verse, the time of the Gentiles/nations means what to a preterist? What does it mean by 'fulfilled'?

Do you read what I write? I showed the scripture where Paul said that the gospel had been preached to every creature under heaven. That's sounds like the whole known world of that day. It fulfilled what Jesus said had to be done before He could come back. That it had to be preached unto the "whole world".

That would be your interpretation of the "known world".

Well, Josephus says they still offered them daily right up until the time the temple was destroyed. As long as the temple was standing, that meant the sacrificial system was still in place.

Do you read what I write? I asked if God still accepted animal sacrifices after the Cross. Not really interested in what Josephus has to say, nor the priests of the temple who offered up the animals. Jesus said it was finished.

God no longer accepts animal sacrifices to atone for sin.

This deals with salvation.

Why do you keep saying that we are caught UP? The word for "up" isn't in the original Greek. It may say "up" in your english bible, but that word isn't in the original language. It says "caught away"....NOT UP. Do you understand.

So get the idea out of your mind that we are going to be caught up in the sky. That's not what is said there.

Sorry, I can't get it out of my mind.

I already said that the word for "air" in greek means "invisible spiritual air around you". So, this being "caught away" into the "air" is an invisible event. THere is NO indication in scripture that it's physical.

It looks like I have to repost this again.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. MKJV

'shall be caught up'

harpazo {har-pad'-zo} Strongs#726
1) to seize, carry off by force

2) to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly

3) to snatch out or away

The KJV renders it 'clouds' and not 'air.'

As to the word "air" in greek from that verse seems to be rendered differently that what you say it is:

G109
&#945;&#787;&#951;&#769;&#961;
ae&#772;r
ah-ayr'
From &#945;&#787;&#769;&#951;&#956;&#953; ae&#772;mi (to breathe unconsciously, that is, respire; by analogy to blow); “air” (as naturally circumambient): - air. Compare G5594.

See the difference? It does not say anything about an "invisible spiritual air around you".


G5594
&#968;&#965;&#769;&#967;&#969;
psucho&#772;
psoo'-kho
A primary verb; to breathe (voluntarily but gently; thus differing on the one hand from G4154, which denotes properly a forcible respiration; and on the other from the base of G109, which refers properly to an inanimate breeze), that is, (by implication of reduction of temperature by evaporation) to chill (figuratively): - wax cold.

Yes, Jesus nailed it to the cross. But the book of Hebrews makes it clear that as long as the earthly temple was still standing...the way into the most holy place in heaven had not yet been opened. THat's why it was so important for it to be destroyed. It was GOd's visible sign to the Jews that the Old Covenant was abolished and the way into Heaven was opened through Jesus.

This is important as it deals with salvation.

Remember that the veil was rent in 2 when Jesus died. God's visible sign to the Jews was Jesus in the flesh, and not the temple. Jesus preached salvation as foretold in the Scriptures. The temple has nothing to do with anything at this point.

Yes, they saw Him ascend. But the angels didn't say He would return EXACTLY the same way. They said in like manner. What was the manner? And I already said that "all spiritual eyes" will see Him and SOME physical eyes will. Did you read that scripture from Paul about "eyes of the heart"? You keep looking for a physical fulfillment of a spiritual event. The first century Jews made the same mistake. Jesus kept trying to tell the that it was all about invisible spiritual realities and not physical things.

Yes, the angels did say He would return just as they saw Him go. re read the Scripture. That would be in like manner.

Yes, Jesus said it was all about spiritual realities and not physical things. But don't mix up the 2 because you're missing what the Scripture actually has to say.

The kingdom of heaven is in our hearts.

The disciples physically saw Him ascend into the air till a cloud received Him.

The 2 angels said He would return in like manner as they saw Him leave.

Nowhere found is the invisible 2nd return of Jesus stated by the 2 angels.

THe bible says that it is the heart of MEN that is desperately wicked ABOVE ALL THINGS and that men sin because they are carried away by their OWN evil desires. Sin is in the world today because of the evil hearts of men. Satan is in the Lake of Fire. He is a defeated foe. If not, then Jesus hasn't defeated death either...because the last enemy to be destroyed was death according to the bible. Has Jesus defeated death? Didn't He rise from the dead?

Sin is in the world because all things have not yet been reconciled to God.

<><

 

[Hello There]

Rev 20:14-And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.

 

[gort]

No, they aren't synonymous. They are different. Look throughout the bible at how they are used. All evil is sin...but not all sin is evil.

Just some sin is evil? What sin is not evil? Can you list them?

Jesus conquered death and the grave. The death that is spoken about is spiritual death. Death (spiritual) and Hades HAVE been cast into the Lake of Fire. It happened when He led "captivity captive" and emptied out Sheo/Hades of the OT saints. Then he cast Hades/Sheol into the Lake of Fire because the only thing left in Hades/SHeol at that point were the unbelievers.

The unbeliever will die twice. One physical. The second death is spiritual. My neighbor today is unsaved. He will fear death and its sting. Death still has power over him, lest he repent. Therefore death is not yet cast into the lof.

He is also deceived into believing there is no god. Therefore satan is not yet cast into the LOF either. Look around the world and tell me there is no power except the hearts of men to tell them there is no god. Or there is no deception of who God is.

We also still have somewhat of a sin nature. Sin can try its lure upon us. We are not yet fully sanctified. Justified yes, but not yet glorified.

Apparantly not all things are yet reconciled to God through preterism.

I'm beginning to see there is more to preterism than I thought there was. Salvation of man is also embedded withing your beliefs that are askew with the simple teaching of the gospel of CHrist Jesus.

I bid you good day.

<><

 

[EchoPneuma]

As a futurist I would see it as when all the Gentile are called in to embrace Jesus.

So, looking more at this verse, the time of the Gentiles/nations means what to a preterist? What does it mean by 'fulfilled'?

Why do you ask this again, when I already answered it twice before?

That would be your interpretation of the "known world".

No, that would be how the Greek scholars explained the greek word "oikoumene"

[font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Strong's Number: 3625[/font]oiÎkoumeÑnh[font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Original Word[/font][font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Word Origin[/font] oiÎkoumeÑnh [font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]feminine participle present passive of (3611) (as noun, by implication of (1093))[/font][font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Transliterated Word[/font][font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Phonetic Spelling[/font] [font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Oikoumene[/font] [font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]oy-kou-men'-ay[/font] [font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Parts of Speech[/font][font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]TDNT[/font] [font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Noun Feminine[/font] [font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]5:157,674[/font] [font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Definition[/font] [font=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]

1. the inhabited earth
   1. the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in distinction from the lands of the barbarians
   2. the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire
   3. the whole inhabited earth, the world
   4. the inhabitants of the earth, men

Do you see how this word is used the most? To mean the inhabitants of the Roman Empire or the Greeks. That's how Jesus used it and that's how Paul used it. And Paul said that the WHOLE WORLD was bearing the fruit of the gospel. Jesus said the WHOLE WORLD would hear the gospel and then He would come. They BOTH used this greek word.

[/font]

Sorry, I can't get it out of my mind.

You should because it's not what the bible says.



.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. MKJV

'shall be caught up'

harpazo {har-pad'-zo} Strongs#726
1) to seize, carry off by force

2) to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly

3) to snatch out or away

OK, show me in this definition the word "UP"??? I sure don't see it. You just made my point. That greek word has nothing to do with UP or going UP anywhere. It means to catch AWAY or OUT.....NOT UP.

The KJV renders it 'clouds' and not 'air.'

As to the word "air" in greek from that verse seems to be rendered differently that what you say it is:

G109
&#945;&#787;&#951;&#769;&#961;
ae&#772;r
ah-ayr'
From &#945;&#787;&#769;&#951;&#956;&#953; ae&#772;mi (to breathe unconsciously, that is, respire; by analogy to blow); “air” (as naturally circumambient): - air. Compare G5594.

See the difference? It does not say anything about an "invisible spiritual air around you".

Do you know what circumambient means? It means the air around you. It doesn't mean the sky. So, there is no "up" in this verse and the word "air" means the air around you...not the sky.

The way we understand the meaning of the word "air" is to look at this verse:
Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

It's the same greek word. How do you think it's used here?


G5594

This is important as it deals with salvation.

Remember that the veil was rent in 2 when Jesus died. God's visible sign to the Jews was Jesus in the flesh, and not the temple. Jesus preached salvation as foretold in the Scriptures. The temple has nothing to do with anything at this point.

Hebrews 9:
27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him

So are you saved? If you believe Jesus hasn't returned yet....then this scripture says He hasn't brought salvation to those who were waiting for Him yet. He hasn't come back yet to bring salvation and none of us are saved until He returns. Look at it carefully. Is salvation here? If so....then He has returned the second time. According to this scripture.

Yes, Jesus said it was all about spiritual realities and not physical things. But don't mix up the 2 because you're missing what the Scripture actually has to say.

If Jesus says it's ALL about spiritual realities. Why are you focused on physical returns, physical raptures, and physical resurrections? Why aren't you focused on the invisible spiritual realities? Like Jesus said to do.

2 Corinthians 4:18
So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

How do you fix your eyes on what is unseen?? Like Paul says here?

The kingdom of heaven is in our hearts.

Correct. It's invisible, eternal and with us now. Jesus is ALREADY sitting on the throne of His kingdom.

The disciples physically saw Him ascend into the air till a cloud received Him.

If Jesus had a physical body when He resurrected, how come He could walk through walls and disappear. How come the disciples didn't recognize Him?.... How come Mary didn't recognize Him until He spoke to her? How come the disciples thought He was a ghost? Maybe He had something besides a physical body as we know it.

The 2 angels said He would return in like manner as they saw Him leave.

Nowhere found is the invisible 2nd return of Jesus stated by the 2 angels.

THey also don't declare the bodily physical return either. They just say "in like manner". I guess it's up for debate what that means.

Sin is in the world because all things have not yet been reconciled to God.

<><

How do you know they haven't? Has God told you they haven't been? Are you limiting what God can do? The bible says that because Jesus died, God doesn't count mens sins against them. So how do you know that everyone isn't reconciled?

How do you know that an evil person being in hell isn't them being "reconciled" to God? The bible says "our God is a consuming fire". Perhaps they are absorbed within God Himself and consumed and that is their reconcilation back to God?? You don't know.

 

[EchoPneuma]

Just some sin is evil? What sin is not evil? Can you list them?

I already said that a person commits evil when trying to achieve salvation apart from Jesus. All other sins Jesus has paid for.

The unbeliever will die twice. One physical. The second death is spiritual. My neighbor today is unsaved. He will fear death and its sting. Death still has power over him, lest he repent. Therefore death is not yet cast into the lof.

You're focusing on the physical death again. Jesus and Paul said to fix your eyes on spiritual things. Spiritual death is what matters. Jesus said the flesh counts for nothing.

He is also deceived into believing there is no god. Therefore satan is not yet cast into the LOF either. Look around the world and tell me there is no power except the hearts of men to tell them there is no god. Or there is no deception of who God is.

So the Devil made them do it huh? Sorry. The bible says that the heart of man is desperately wicked and deceitful ABOVE ALL THINGS. There doesn't need to be a Satan for wickedness, evil and sin to occur. THe bible says "the fool has said IN HIS HEART, there is no God". Nothing about Satan there. He is a defeated foe.

We also still have somewhat of a sin nature. Sin can try its lure upon us. We are not yet fully sanctified. Justified yes, but not yet glorified.

Somewhat of a sin nature? As long as we are in this body of flesh, we have a sin nature in full bloom. THrough Christ we can "put if off", but until we shed this body, we have to deal with it. And I agree, we are not yet glorified. That will take place when we go to heaven.

Apparantly not all things are yet reconciled to God through preterism.

Nope. That's not true. Preterism teaches that it is all finished. That all things are as God would have them in the kingdom. His will is being done on earth, as it is in Heaven. His kingdom is ever increasing. Jesus is ruling and reigning.

I'm beginning to see there is more to preterism than I thought there was. Salvation of man is also embedded withing your beliefs that are askew with the simple teaching of the gospel of CHrist Jesus.

Well I HOPE the salvation of man is embedded in my beliefs. It's what Jesus came to die for. I don't see how it is askew from any of the teachings of Jesus. Care to elaborate?

I bid you good day.

<><

Good day to you too

 

[Hidden Manna]

I believe Satan is in the Lake of Fire just like we are in the New Jerusalem. It's a spiritual place that our Spirits live even though our body remains on the earth until we physically die.

What Satan is capeable of doing in the Lake of Fire I do not know but I do know he is not coming out to be the prince of the air when he was cast to the earth before AD70.