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How I came to embrace Preterism.

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Manifestation1*AD70, Jun 2, 2002.

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  1. How I came to embrace Preterism.

    I would like to share with you how I came to embrace Preterism. You know how we are always hearing about the rapture and the end of the world coming on the television and radio programs. Well I was a futurist also and spent my time at night, listening to them preach on this subject over the radio.

    One night while I was listening to them on the radio I fell into a deep sleep. While I was sleeping I started to feel as though I was on fire, and running a very high temperature, but yet I was still asleep.

    Then I heard a voice from what I assumed to be the radio saying, "we are not living in the last days, Jesus has come."

    As I begin to awake, I suddenly realized that I had also been crying in my sleep and found myself chanting over and over again "I love you Jesus." My pillow was soaking wet as though someone had saturated it with a bucket of water. All this happened between 1 and 2 AM.

    The next night, I listened to the very same radio station but never heard anything like that again. From that point on it seemed like God had burned something deep within my soul forever. I would come home from work, spending hours studying. I even stayed in the house all weekend, closely examining the Bible. Studying the Bible almost become a obsession to me. It was like taking a drink of the clear water of life that proceeds from the throne of God and I could not stop drinking it.

    I must admit that at first I really struggled, questioning if what I now saw in the Bible was really true. But as God promised, the more I looked for Him the more truth I found.

    Many things fell into place like never before, and the Bible seemed to come alive. God opened my eyes to see who the New Testament letters were written to and why. I began, to understand the key to any passage of Scripture is a careful study into the language, culture, politics, and the historical setting in which it was originally written.

    Rich nuggets of truth came forth from my daily studies in the book of Hebrews. As I studied, I learned that it takes the "cross, resurrection, and return of Christ" to complete our salvation. I learned to see things from God's perspective and not mans, that Death, to God, means to be separated from Him.

    Spiritual Death is an enemy because it keeps people from God. God loved man and desired to be with him and be his God. This was not possible until Jesus Christ returned and removed the Old Covenant. God’s light and truth lead me to His holy hill and to His dwelling.

    I could see more clearly than ever the face of God. God dwells in me like the Old Testament promised and I dwell in His glory because of the completed work of Christ. It is like the writer of Hebrews says we can now enter the Holiest by the blood of Christ (Hebrews 10:19).

    I never pray anymore "dear Lord in heaven," for God now dwells-tabernacles within me. I am glad to call myself a preterist because if it were not for God opening my eyes, I would not be one today. :clap:
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Ozarkpreterist

    Ozarkpreterist New Member

    Here is my story.

    I used to be a futurist. In fact, I used to promote and teach futurist thought. However, failed prediction after failed prediction began to put doubts in my heart. For example, I heard that everyone from JFK to Bill Clinton was the Anti-Christ. Remember the book “Eighty Eight Reasons Why the Lord will Return in 1988?” The list goes on. All this blatant and many times wild speculation turned me into what you would call a pan-millennialist. You know the old joke. Why worry about the end times? It will all pan out in the end! That joke does not seem so funny any more. The end and when it occurred is vital.

    I was sitting in my office one day thinking about the major views on the book of Revelation. A question came to mind. "Which view would you want to be right if you were the Devil?" I assume this question was from the Lord, because it lead to major changes for good in my life. Suddenly, I had to know who was right. It became almost an obsession. I spent hours studying the futurist, the historistic, and to a lesser degree the idealist view. For some reason I saved preterism for last. I was saving the best for last, but I did not know it at the time.

    The view I found most appalling was the futurist view. Believe me the Devil is a futurist. From this perspective he came through Jesus' finished works relatively unscathed. In fact, his kingdom is destined to grow stronger and stronger. He even gets I suppose to become incarnate in some sort of Anti-Christ. Beloved, we must decide. Satan is either a defeated foe or not. There is no in-between. If he is defeated, then we must treat him as such. Futurism simply does not do this. In fact, in many respects, it actually glorifies Satan, boasting in how big the darkness is rather than how big God is.

    I found the historistic and the idealist view to be compelling and a lot more intellectually stimulating that the futurist view. Yet, I concluded that is about all they had going for them. I must admit they both are much more positive about the future than the futurists. Yet, both views said in one way or another "not yet" concerning the kingdom of God.

    Then I came to preterism. I was surprised at what I found. Not only did I find far superior scholarship and logic, but I found something even greater. I found truth. I love encountering truth, for ultimately when we meet the truth we are not just meeting an idea or theory. We meet a Person-- the Person of Jesus Christ. I saw Him in covenant eschatology.

    And as Jesus said, the truth will set us free. If our theories don't set us free, then maybe they are just theories, and everyone has a theory. Before I studied the preterist view, I felt like I had been fighting the fight of faith with one hand tied behind my back. Preterism untied the other hand.

    First I began to see Satan as he is. He has been a crushed, disarmed, and defeated foe since the Parousia. If the church would stand in this truth oh how she would be free.

    Yet, that is only part of it. I began to see the present reality of God's Kingdom. I see more clearly than ever the glory of God. His glory dwells in me, for Christ dwells in me. I dwell in His glory for I dwell in Christ by God's own doing. Never again will I ask, "Where is God?"

    Moreover, Paul said that the kingdom of God is righteousness, joy, and peace in the Holy Spirit. Now, these are not just things I touch every once and awhile. (Kind of like God coming and going or visiting every once in awhile when I did everything just right. This is indeed the view of many Christians. The kingdom of God is here but not yet.) These things are my experience every day, for God in Christ has given us His present and abiding glory. Just as His glory once dwelt in a building called the Tabernacle in the Old Testament, we are His dwelling place now.

    There are so many believer's walking around with long faces knowing only a victory that is someday or maybe not even possible in this life at all. Someone needs to tell them that the kingdom of God is here now. That is what perterists are ultimately saying. That is why I am now glad to call myself one.

    Preterism is a major shift in one's mindset. It moves us from us from always trying to obtain the kingdom of God to having it. It moves us from striving to rest and from the carnal to the spiritual. This change of mind is still occurring in me, and I am not going back.

    Eschatology is not just the study of the return of Christ. It seeks to answer the question of how much of our salvation we can experience in this life. Futurism, if you really study it, says very little of it, because the kingdom of God is not yet here. Preterism says very well near all of it, because the kingdom of God is a very present reality. For this reason it is very much worth exploring with an open heart.
  3. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    United States
    It all started in Jr. High.

    Upon invitation, I attended a wednesday night youth group at our local non denom church. Mostly to meet girls, but I was also curious about Christianity. I found myself growing more fond of the message than the girls, and became fervant for the gospel. Then in the High school youth group we watched a film called "caught up" or something like that, (circa 1982 "left behind" prototype, anybody out there know the movie I speak of?), anyway, after that movie, and follow-up stern warning from the group organizers that we'd better shape up because we didn't have even 10 years left by their estimate before the events in the movie became reality,I did an about face. I left the faith alltogether, went fom a B+ student to barely graduating, got into drugs and followed the Grateful Dead around the country for the next 10 years. I figured, whats the point? I was mad at God for denying me a future on planet earth, to Get married, have children, give the children away at their weddings, and grow old surrounded by grandchildren and great grandchildren. I felt robbed out of a Life so I was going to experience all that my few years left had to offer.

    In 1995, after Jerry Garcia Died (and didn't rise again), I began to re-examine my faith. This co-insided with me meeting my then future wife, a Cradle Catholic. As we grew closer, and eventually became engaged, my love for her rekindled my love for Jesus. I attended mass regularly and the in 1998, a year after we were maried, I began the RCIA education classes to join the Church.

    This is where I first heard of Preterism. There came an evening about midway through the 6 months of wednesday classes that was an "open forum" for any and all questions.

    I asked If the Catholic Church was on the same page as the bulk of evangelical Christianity that claimed we were living in the "last days". That was still my major sticking point that was keeping me from embracing any of mainstream Christianity.

    In answer, I was given an 11 tape audio lecture series by Dr. Scott Hahn, on the book of Revelation. I listened to it straigh through 5 times! I was astounded at what I had heard. Scott Hahn is a Catholic Layperson who is a very
    strong "Partial Preterist" in fact, I'd say he is the only "consistant partial preterist" I know of.
    While he still looks for a future to us coming of Jesus, he admits that he has no scripture back that up with, relying only on the creeds. He went through Revelation verse by verse showing how it was fulfilled to a T in the 1st century with the destruction of Jerusalem. In the tape he mentioned a few "full preterists" by name so I hit the comuter to search out this fascinating, new (to me) take on the Bible.

    I began by doing everything I could to find every argument I could against preterism, then searching the scriptures to "see if it were so". The more I couldn't argue against it and still maintian scriptural integrity, the more I realized it was true, and the more my faith In Jesus grew.

    Preterism brought me back to Jesus!!!

    It's been almost 3 years since I came to accept the truth of past fulfillment and the blessings I have received have far outweighed the sacrifices (which have been great and many).

    I continue today in the quest to have this belief I hold challenged and tested, for only as it continues to stand the scrutiny of scripture will I continue to accept it.

    I don't have all the answers, and I am more than willing to be proven wrong, but over 3 years of prayer and study have led me to the place I am today, On fire for Jesus, in the Eternal Victory of His fulfilled Kingdom!
  4. armothe

    armothe Living in HIS kingdom...

    I'll try to keep this short.

    I grew up in a Baptist environment. I was taught Futurism in Sunday School, along with all the other "isms" that follow along with it.

    I was further entrenched into a futurist belief due to the Baptist College I attended for 4 years.

    After graduation I was more focused on my career, single life, and entertainment; rather than focusing on God.

    About a year later, attending a large church with my fiancee I started to question and investigate some of the sermons I heard on Sunday.

    This started me down the path of studying the Word for myself, rather than accepting everything I was told. Eventually I studied "end times" prophecy. I bought many a book on "armageddon" "revelation unveiled", but I was still unable to make things fit.

    Part of my studies brough me online where I ran into a Christian website which stated Christ came in 70AD. I had never heard this before. I followed the neat tutorial where it would ask you a series of questions and you would answer yes or no...etc. Sort of like a "choose your own adventure" book. I was at a loss to refute many of the questions and claims the website tutorial stated.
    I gave this theory credit, and tucked it away; but remained unchanged.

    Eventually, after a year or so, I gave up my studies on the end times because I just couldn't understand it. Nothing made sense to me. I started reading the "Left Behind" series to gain insight (hah) and at about the 5th book monsters started flying around and it just became utterly ridiculous.

    A good friend then invited me to meet with his father-in-law who is a minister at a local church. We talked about eschatology and he was able to answer many of the questions I had. He held a preterist view and answered many of my questions suberbly.

    He challenged me to read the Bible from a 1st century viewpoint. He also asked the question; "What's left for Christ to do when he returns?" because he already has given us the greatest gift we could possibly imagine.

    Since then a world of growth has opened up for me. I read God's word daily and for once, things actually started to make sense concerning prophetical fulfillment.

  5. jenlu

    jenlu Member

    These are fascinating stories and keep em comin'...

    Parousia, I think I'm still at the stage of Scott Hahn(still thinking about full preterism, not sure of the concepts yet)...with the future return of Jesus Christ...Not to set up any kingdom, for that was done long ago :clap: ... I think our beliefs in how the past fulfillment effects one's life are very similar...

    My story goes as follows...

    I used to be a hardcore dispensationalist, but around 1996 I started having questions about things that just weren't fitting in scripture with the dispensationalist view...I couldn't quite figure out what it was but I knew it had to do with the time texts, but couldn't get myself to understand what all the writers meant with all those time texts...I was trying to put what I thought to be true in scripture instead of letting scripture be the base of my truths...finally one day after grueling over the situation for 2 years I was tuned(not really listening) to a Christian radio station and I heard "release you from the chains"...they were talking of how last days in the church have put a stranglehold on many believers...Well, that was me...so I listened intently and they gave snipits, but didn't really go into detail...then they offered a book called Last Days Madness:Obsession of the Modern Church by Gary Demar...That book (reading it along with the Bible)was the beginning of the most wonderful journey I have taken ...I do believe it will last until the day I die...

    BTW...all these stories make me think of something...We are all in here trying to convince, persuade, and many other things to allow people to see what we see...But, in all these stories and I'm sure hundreds more it took something within yourself to allow the opening of the mind to other possible ideas...for some it is failed predictions, for others it was how things didn't just add up and I'm sure many other different things that contributed to the searching of these truth's...So trying to convince on a message board will probably be futile, so don't get to worried...The seeds have definitely been planted with many and I'm sure they will bear fruit...
  6. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

    Actually, email and message board debates is what led me to believe in preterism.

    About three years ago I was surfing the internet to find some good articles about the continuance of spiritual gifts, and I came across a Church site pastored by a man named Steven Curtis (most preterists on the web know who he is). The article must have been an old one because he was defending the gifts for today. As I searched the site I came across more recent articles, ones on spiritual gifts that seemed to contradict the older teachings. There were articles about the cessation of the gifts, and the Return of Christ in 70AD.

    And my response was WHAT?!?!

    I emailed him twice, explaining to him that he must not have ever seen the passages Thessalonians, or looked up at the sky and seen the sun, stars, and moon still in their places. Mr. Curtis' replies were very respectful and understanding, but the truth in his words dogged me afterwards. I then joined a Christian Discussion forum, and lo 'n behold, I became friends with a man named John McPherson, who I later found out was a preterist himself (some of you from PreteristPlanet may know of John too).

    I vehemently debated John on preterism, although our debates were quite civil and friendly (that couldn't be said of some of the other posters there though), and after a time our debate ended, but John's scriptures still haunted me, just like Mr. Curtis'. I then went on an all out attack on preterism, asking a local TV preacher to refute preterists on his debate show, emailing Dr. D. James Kennedy, warning him that one of his speakers, Dr. R.C. Sproul, was a partial preterist, and so on. I studied the scriptures and searched the internet for the greatest Christian defense against preterism I could muster.

    But for all of my zeal, time, and effort, I slowly began to realize (to my horror) that I might have been trying to box with God rather then fight a false doctrine. All of the simple scriptures that Curtis and McPherson challenged me with began to speak, the voices of God's Word getting louder and louder, while my futurist filter beame less and less effective.

    One day in February of last year I realized that I could not pretend any longer. I emailed John McPherson and told him that my eschatology had changed. He was ecstatic, to say the least. :)

    In Christ,

  7. jenlu

    jenlu Member

    Acts6:5...I see what you're saying...BTW, I'm not saying we should discontinue the debate...in fact I think seeds planted here and everywhere will work wonders, but to see a change like today or tomorrow would be asking too much...These forums are great and help spread the message a lot faster...I love em...good story...I remember thinking when I first started "this can't be true", "prove it"...it was to my horror too...that is an unbelievable way to be converted...something you really don't want to be true, proven to be true right in front of you...
  8. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

    Yep, it certainly does not happen overnight - and it shouldn't, either. Changing our beliefs on certain doctrines should only happen after a time of earnest study and introspection.

    In Christ,

  9. Didaskomenos

    Didaskomenos Voiced Bilabial Spirant

    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Guys, you're still working on me. I have distrusted the beliefs of end-times people for years, before I even heard of other options. It all seemed wrong to me, but I don't to this day know why. It seemed as hollow as a lot of other Fundie stances.

    One of my college buddies (we were both Bible & Theology majors) took Revelations with a new professor. I became aware that my friend's faith in the prevalent views of eschatology were shaken drastically, as he told me he began to believe a lot of what that professor was telling him. My friend gave me the basics, that the professor was teaching that Revelation was already fulfilled, and he told me that he was shown many convincing evidences for a first century fulfillment. I myself never took this class (although I rue that fact now), because the seeds were only being planted.

    I began to frequent this board a number of months ago. I lost some interest in it for a time, but God was working on me, and I decided that I had to know what that professor was teaching about. I happened to come back to this site about a month ago, and lo and behold, there was all this talk about "preterism" in the "Most Recent Discussions" lists. I was shocked to find that in the time I was gone, many of you had started talking about this, just in time for me to start my own quest and come searching. I'm not fully convinced of much yet, but I at least know that there are many issues you preterists are correct on.

    Please be patient as I lurk and try to discover the truth. Any full-scale resources you can direct me to will be most appreciated. Your talk on this forum has gotten my gears turning, but I need something more comprehensive and a little less hit-and-run for me to grasp the big picture.

    Thanks for sharing!
  10. jenlu

    jenlu Member

    Wonderful post...the journey is so rewarding and I've just gotten started(I've long since held a view of past fulfillment of much of the Olivet Discourse)...I'm looking for some of the same resources myself about the difference between full and partial preterism and why full is right and partial is not...full feels sorta right, but I've never gone on feelings and I'd love to have the full scope of differences in front of me...So thanks for asking that question...
  11. Back To The Future

    Back To The Future New Member

    I have to say that I don't feel so alone anymore in my quest. I have come to believe full preterism and am, pardon the pun, IN Heaven about it.

    7 years ago we were in a bible study. We had all different kinds of opinions and such. We were studying Revelation. So To prove a point (although I didn't know at the time, what point I was proving) I made hats for everyone in the group. I went to Burger King and got a bunch of those Crowns they give the kids. I made big circles and placed them on the hat so they could spin. In the circle I had put, pre-trib, post-trib, NO trib and Chicago Trib. (we live just outside Chicago and thats a newspaer.) Then everyone put them on their heads and put the spinner where they wanted it.

    I just couldn't take it anymore. I had no clue what I was looking for, but knew the futurist thinking had to go. So I came home and spent hours on the internet searching, pre-trib and Post-trib and one day, I ended up at the Preterist Archive. I was like, what in the world are they talking about. Prophecy fulfilled?? It caught my interest. Even 3 years ago, there was not the info that there is now. Anyway I bought I John Noe book, read it, everyone thought I was nuts and gave it away. But I saved the Preterist stuff in my favorite places. Didn't go back there, for well over a year.

    But I keep crying out to the Lord for the truth. I am 50 years old now and I just had to have the truth. So about 3 months ago I went back to the preterist archive along with several other places now. I just knew in an instance that preterism was the truth. I have been just so overwhelmed with graditude for being able to know this truth. I bought another John Noe book. Beyond the End Times. The Rest of the greatest story ever told. I am keeping this one! I read it and then check everything in my Bible. I have a long way to go. But I believe preterism with all my heart and am studying everyday, so I can pass the word along.
    Nancy :clap:
  12. truthseeker

    truthseeker New Member

    :clap: Good Thread !!!

    Can I ask for a simple outline on preterism? I think I feel the way you do but, haven't done any study on it.

    I never fell for the "rapture" doctrine because an easy way out just goes against the doctrines of Jesus. I would count it all joy to be a tribulation saint!

    Yes, the Kingdom is within you and can be now! To carry it a step further...I feel that when enough of us enter in; the physical manifestations will begin to take place.

    :pink: truthseeker
  13. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    United States
    Hi truthseeker!

    Here's a great link to an outline on Liberty Universitiy's course on preterism. I think you will find it is the "simple outline" you are looking for!

    Liberty U's Preterism course outline

    God Bless,
  14. truthseeker

    truthseeker New Member

    ;) thanks parousia70

    I briefly checked-out your reference and will go back and read more.

    A few of the Scriptures listed; recalled to my mind that the Apostles seemed to enter in to the Kingdom. They worked many miracles, including raising the dead. And whos to say that any of them really tasted death. In fact, I have read in some apocryphal writings that Judas Thomas rose from his tomb (after they had speared him to death in India) and was seen by many.

    When the Lord told His disciples how to preach He told them to tell people, and He said it Himself; the Kingdom of God is at hand.


    In HIS Love
    :pink: truthseeker
  15. But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear (1Peter 3:15).

    Hi preterist brother. I have starting a new "personal testimony page" on my web site fall all preterist to give their testimony on how they came to embrace Preterism.

    It is hoped that it will help Christians who are not preterist, and don't understand why we believe the things we do that coming to preterism is not just a change of mind but a change of heart and a life changing encounter with the Lord.

    It might also help Christians who are younger to understand what is going on.

    I am going to add all these great testimony to the page if it is ok with you, so could you all please send me your full name, and the state that you live in and the name you us in this forum, so I can place your real name with your testimony.

    Ozarkpreterist Parousia 70 and I all believe this is a good idea. It will be a place to tell people to go too so they can see for themselfs what the Lord is doing.

    The page can be seen "on my site" and you can email me your names and the state at [email protected]

    Thanks brothers for all your great testimony and your help. Tyrone

    PS happy birth day Acts. :clap:
  16. Acts this is a great story and it kind of reminds me of Paul's story in the Bible. I have been a full preterist for over 20 years now and your story reminds my of how some of us, fight with God when coming to the preterist view.
  17. Great story jenlu. And your are also right, as seen by all the testimony. We can only plant the seed but God has to make it real to the spirit and heart.
  18. Hi brother. You should find this like of some help if you have not all ready been there.

  19. davo

    davo Member

    G'day Folks :)

    I was born into a Baptist family [my dad being a pastor], and unlike lots of Baptist folk down here we were strongly Amillennial with an Idealist' slant. I knew why I didn't believe Premillennial Dispensationalism but didn't know much about anything else. In 1986 I decided to explore the Post Millennial view and purchased J Marcellus Kik's "Eschatology of Victory." As I was reading it I was constantly agreeing with what I was reading, and one or two times refering to the dust cover just to check that it wasn't amill. This was the start of my journey to where I am today [being flexible enough and willing to have cherished beliefs challenged, and where needed, changed].

    What appealed to me about the whole Post-Mill postion was it seemed very positive. From there [about 4 years later] I discovered what I thought then was "pay-dirt" -I found David Chilton's "Paradise Restored" and then "The Days of Vengeance" [both brilliant books]. I learnt that it was considered "Partial Preterist." In 1993 I read John Noe's "Apocalypse Conspiracy" [which he obviously now holds a somewhat different view] -it was heavily "Idealistic" but for me "too far out there," but good fodder for personal application. But having embraced Chilton's angle on things I found Noe's way not concrete enough for me.

    In Chilton's "The Days of Vengeance" he made a couple of references to the works of Max King [considered as the main proponent of the "fulfilled" position in eschatology since the the likes of J.Stuart Russell's "The Parousia" in 1887]. In '98-'99 I looked into "Covenant Eschatology" -preterism, but not being convinced battled with it for awhile. My problem wasn't so much Jesus' Bodily return in His Church, but all the implications that went along with it -one big one at the time was "no more devil" -I reckoned "nice thought, but really?" But the more I read the more I was coming to see my paradigm was starting to shift. With the patient help of some folk at 'Living Presence' website things started to fall into place. In 2000 I decided to "jump" and embrace the "fulfilled" view of eschatology -and I'm not looking back. :)

    Well that's part of my story so far. God is incredibly gracious and good, and I too have had a renewed walk with God, and I've since come to realise that the reason why, when all those years ago when I asked Him into my life, that He did, was because -He's Already Here!! :clap:

  20. jenlu

    jenlu Member

    Hey davo...

    What's the difference between postmilleniasm and partial preterism...thanks...
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