How does one come to believe something?

[ScottA]

As I feel reasonably well versed in the broad sweep of the Christian tradition, having spent too many years under 'Religious Instruction', I'd rather like to hear what you said you could tell me of what you experienced personally that caused you to believe that this world is 'our grave' and we can't see beyond it unless we're 'born again of the spirit of God' (#1259). I already asked to hear this (#1274), but maybe you were too busy.

Sorry I missed it.

I have told this many times here. Having no religious background or exposure other than hearsay, life spiraled downward to a point that I had nowhere else to turn, so in desperate jest I began talking to God - an he answered. Not audibly, but I was immediately taken in the spirit above the earth and shown my worth and purpose - then with a shot, I was back in my body, filled with peace. He then set me on a path that lead me to a bible and a couple of weeks to kill. When I read it (from cover to cover), it confirmed my experience and my experience confirmed it - the Author of the two was unmistakably One and the same. I then read the bible over and over again repeatedly from cover to cover for the next several years, each time revealing more and more. When I did finally end up going to church...what I heard did not always square with what I had come to know directly from God...but there is a very good reason for that, one we can talk about at some time.

As for this world being our grave...it is no secret...everyone dies. Which is explained by God in His word, as the result of categoric rebellion against God. The "good news" of the coming of Christ, then...is it doesn't have to end that way.

As for being born again of the spirit of God - that is the means by which one can escape the death sentence of this world. So, then, while the penalty is still carried out upon the physical, we can be born again (internally) of the spirit of God, become a completely new creation than our former self, here and now - and with the body dies, the spiritual being that we have become will never die. We do this, by not rejecting the haunt of Him that no one can actually deny, but by receiving it as the good news that it is - as a second chance. When it comes, say, Yes! And if you have not asked, ask.

 

[StTruth]

By your own confession, you are not what you claim to be - but are a follower of people and organized religion. Thus, you disqualify yourself to debate any spiritual matters with anyone.

As for being born again of the spirit of God - again you refer to a man, rather than to God or Christ - again, you disqualify yourself. If you were indeed qualified, you would know better than to base your theology on men's wisdom. You would know that God is spirit, that the words of Christ are spirit, and only the spirit may enter the kingdom of God. And professing to be wise, you have not even done the math.

When you asked Hitchslap "But are you haunted?" I was stunned. I'm still in school but I assure you none of my classmates would sound so incredibly puerile. Everything you say is so anti-intellectual. Now, you call me a follower of people and organised religion. Every person with any religion is a follower of people and religion of whatever stage of organisation and you can't even see that? But I know why you are doing this. It's to avoid an open argument. I've already said Jesus couldn't have said what he's reported to have said in Jn 3:3. You know you can't take me on on that. So you simply say I'm disqualified from arguing. That's intellectual cowardice.

 

[bhsmte]

When you asked Hitchslap "But are you haunted?" I was stunned. I'm still in school but I assure you none of my classmates would sound so incredibly puerile. Everything you say is so anti-intellectual. Now, you call me a follower of people and organised religion. Every person with any religion is a follower of people and religion of whatever stage of organisation and you can't even see that? But I know why you are doing this. It's to avoid an open argument. I've already said Jesus couldn't have said what he's reported to have said in Jn 3:3. You know you can't take me on on that. So you simply say I'm disqualified from arguing. That's intellectual cowardice.

Well stated.

Here is the bottom line with some folks. If you disagree with them, you must be lost and there is something wrong with you. To me at least, this could be a sign, they are experiencing some cognitive dissonance, when they need to label folks, who disagree with their beliefs.

 

[Arsenios]

If you do have evidence and won't present it, no one should listen to you.

If you do have evidence and for whatever reason can't present it, no one should listen to you.

If you don't have evidence, no one should listen to you.

Care to actually respond to that?

The evidence is seen in the change of quality of life...

And in the change of orientation of that life...

The lives of those who have encountered God...

Before and after...

As a good social metaphysician, you should appreciate the fact that this evidence can only be found in the witness of those who have encountered God... That, however, is precisely the kind of evidence that you specifically scorn... And in that scorn, you can only maintain your faith in atheism by closing your eyes and ears to the witness that IS the evidence you are unwilling to receive... You insist on socially provable experimental public testing, such as that which mixes an acid with a base which produces a salt and water and hydrogen... This methodology is utterly inapt for the kind of phenomena which you scorn...

Arsenios

 

[StTruth]

That's an excellent answer. The puzzle for me is that I too was brought up in a Christian environment, and went through all the rituals and fluff - I enjoyed a lot of it - but although I heard a lot about God, and bought into the idea of spirituality and a virtuous life, I never had any identifiable experience of God, and by the time I was thinking about that kind of thing independently, the concept seemed pointless, irrelevant, and full of contradictions; and the religion just another lifestyle choice... I wondered how many were telling themselves it was true and deliberately not thinking too deeply about it, how many were pretending just to feel part of something, and how many really believed. The more I learned about other people, other religions, and the way the world works, the more absurd it all seemed (the insistence on the supernatural).

Doesn't knowing that your belief structure is the arbitrary result of an accident of birth into a particular subculture give you pause to reconsider it? Given your acknowledgment (above) of what seem clear reasons not to believe - do you really still believe? If so, how do you reconcile your belief with those facts?

Hi FrumiousBandersnatch

I'm sorry I didn't see your post earlier. I have commented in too many threads and I'm now quite lost as to how to respond to all the queries. If I miss any question, I hope EVERYONE who posts questions to me will pardon me and ask again. I don't evade questions and will answer everything truthfully.

I agree that the supernatural is something really fanciful and my brain is unable to accept it. If I were born in a family without any religion and if I weren't an altar boy for the greater part of my life (I only stopped two years ago when I started growing taller), I wouldn't dream of being a Christian today. But this is something so many Christians refuse to accept and I always wondering who are they kidding? Of course there are the odd few who got converted along the way but in most cases we are Christians because our parents are Christians.

When you ask me whether I still 'believe', I need to know the definition of 'believe'. Since I'm a Christian, I will use the biblical definition of 'belief'. The word which Bible translators translate as 'believe' is the Koine Greek word 'pisteo'. The noun, 'pistis' is usually translated 'belief' or 'faith'. It's actually a poor translation but Christians (especially American fundamentalists) seize on it and spin a whole theology round it so that all you need to do is to believe and you're 'saved'. Which means the more gullible you are and can fall for any supernatural claptrap, the more likely it is for you to be saved. But that's cheapening the Christian faith. The biblical understanding of pistis requires action. Hence, Jesus' parable about the sheep and the goats is all about action. Do you feed the poor? Do you look after the needy? Do you visit and help prisoners ie those who are oppressed or marginalised. Not ONCE did our Lord mention belief in that parable of who are the good guys and who are the bad guys.

So, using purely biblical definitions, yes I have pistis in the church or the faith. Right now, I'm still young and at school but when I'm older, I would like to do some social work along the lines of what Jesus says in the parable I mentioned. At one point in the Gospel, Jesus asks who loves him and believes in him? And Jesus Himself replies: Those who DO (action word again) the will of the Father. The reduction of Christianity to mere belief allows fundamentalists to be big on doctrine (that's where you can exclude other people) and to ignore the hard part of faith - our deeds.

 

[Arsenios]

So your spiritual understanding doesn't require a brain?

The issue is not the presence or absence of a brain, but of the determination of the contents found in the understanding... The issue we are wrestling over is one that has on the one side the brain, and on the other side, the mind, and the question is: Does the brain determine the mind? Or does the mind determine itself... I think we can both agree that a person has both a mind and a brain, at least until death, as a default normal for this discussion...

I believe you meant opposition...and yes, it seems carnal understanding requires a brain.

Carnal understanding holds that the mind is not self-determining, but is determined by the brain...

So what is your relationship with god concerning? Can you speak with him or not?

Private... If you want to know, you have to develop your own relationship with Him...

It would seem to me that all understanding requires a brain...

Carnal understanding dies when the brain dies, but YOU go on...

And you're Russian...correct?

No - Would half-breed-Swede qualify?

Oh how wonderful it must be to have found the correct interpretation just happened to be in the place you're from. Lol lucky you.

Where is your joy?

Sounds like life has been rather difficult for you.

Fabulously challenging, all told...

Interior conflicts have nothing at all to do with my atheism.

Your atheism will not heal them...

And granted, that's an ad-hom observation...

Oh it's not easy...but it can be done.
Once you step back away from it,
you realize that it was all in your head to begin with.

That for me would be to embrace a lie...

Did I mention that I hate lies?

We all die...including you and everyone you've ever known.

For you, death is loss of existence...

For me, it is great gain...

It appears as if christians are no different from most others...
just a little more trusting and judgemental.

I never liked them because of what I saw as their sneering judgemental hypocrisy...

Now I love them for the same reason!

So you don't talk to him.

If you wanna have the toys in the box, ya gotta GO into the box...

I'm starting to think you still live in your imagination.

That is the limit of your understanding...

As long as that is true, then do good and avoid evil, loving truth and hating lies, at all times and in all circumstances, and you will either encounter God, or you will not, [God's choice, not yours], but you will be OK in the Age to come, and you will live a worthwhile life here and now...

Arsenios

 

[StTruth]

The issue is not the presence or absence of a brain, but of the determination of the contents found in the understanding... The issue we are wrestling over is one that has on the one side the brain, and on the other side, the mind, and the question is: Does the brain determine the mind? Or does the mind determine itself... I think we can both agree that a person has both a mind and a brain, at least until death, as a default normal for this discussion...


Arsenios

Ho! Ho! Ho! This is hilarious. It's amazing how some people spin a yarn over simple words to make them complex so they can sneak in their mumbo-jumbo. Look up any dictionary. The mind is the process of the brain. It includes memory, intellect, thought, etc. It's really funny to separate the two. It's like saying your hands do something but are you aware that you don't just possess the hands but you also possess the actions? The brain thinks and that process is called the mind.

You say you hate dishonesty. Surely if you are perfectly honest with yourself, you can see what I say is true?

 

[Ana the Ist]

This is not that difficult. If you were in prison and you wanted to see if there was a pencil on the wardens desk - then, NO, you could not just walk in and see it. Is that too difficult to understand?

By that comparison, we're sharing the same cell....but you're pretending to have a key that lets you walk around....

Tell me what's on the wardens' desk and what he has to say.

 

[Freodin]

By that comparison, we're sharing the same cell....but you're pretending to have a key that lets you walk around....

Tell me what's on the wardens' desk and what he has to say.

And what would keep him from pretending to know what is on the warden's desk and what he has to say?

Hey, I can do it! On the warden's desk is a signed pardon for your name. The warden says that you only have to confess your crime and it will be activated.

Nah, I think my way is better... so good in fact that no one has ever taken me on it: tell me something that only the warden and I can know. You didn't get it from me... that I know. So if you are correct, you must have gotten it from the warden.

Works every time.

Well, in fact, it fails every time. But I like to here the excuses why it fails.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

The evidence is seen in the change of quality of life...

I know a Hindu who had a change in the quality of their life. Which according to you is evidence that Vishnu is real.

And in the change of orientation of that life...

Yep. Another check for Vishnu.

The lives of those who have encountered God...

If you mean Vishnu, then yep. Three check marks. That's pretty impressive evidence for Vishnu.

Are you sure you want to use these life changes as evidence? Because there's many more gods who also might exist.

According to you...

 

[StTruth]

Christianity is not evidence-less if one considers 'evidence' to be something that exists in reality that can be objectively analyzed by all subjective people.

The claims your parents made about their beliefs were evidence to you that caused you to believe them. New evidence will either confirm your beliefs or cause you to doubt them and possibly reject them. However, what's important is that you believe the truth and we all know who claims to be the way and the truth and the life. Thank God!

God expects everyone to think rationally and make good decisions, therefore as Christians, we shouldn't say that Christianity is not rational.

I'm sorry but it's evidence you have misunderstood the meaning of the word 'evidence'. A belief when communicated to another does not become evidence that the belief is true. Hence, my parents telling me about their beliefs cannot be evidence that the belief is true. It's just evidence that they have those beliefs and that is all.

You also wrote, "New evidence will either confirm your beliefs or cause you to doubt them...". Again, you are mistaken. What new evidence? Name me one. I'm persuaded there is none. If you mean my experiences will either confirm my beliefs or cause me to doubt them, it's still inaccurate. You see, Christianity (like any religion) is formulated so that the experiences won't make you lose your belief. All religions have to do that or they would lose all their followers. If a religion actually says that doing something will definitely result in something else, it'd be digging its own grave because that thing won't happen. So, for example, in Christianity, even if you pray for something legitimate and nothing happens, you won't lose your faith. Every religion must prepare its followers for such an eventuality because we all know prayers don't work. Once a person believes in a religion, that religion will prepare him so that all subsequent experiences he goes through will be interpreted to confirm the religion. If good things happen, it's God's blessings. If bad things happen, it's a trial from God or God has some plan that we know not of.

It's totally wrong to say religion is not evidence-less. It most definitely is.

 

[Arsenios]

Ho! Ho! Ho! This is hilarious. It's amazing how some people spin a yarn over simple words to make them complex so they can sneak in their mumbo-jumbo. Look up any dictionary. The mind is the process of the brain. It includes memory, intellect, thought, etc. It's really funny to separate the two. It's like saying your hands do something but are you aware that you don't just possess the hands but you also possess the actions? The brain thinks and that process is called the mind.

You say you hate dishonesty. Surely if you are perfectly honest with yourself, you can see what I say is true?

I hate lies...

If the mind is only a function of the brain, then there can be neither truth nor error...

There can only be materially configured mental processes...

We are created in the image of God...

God is the Creator of material creation...

And it is you who possesses both mind and body...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I know a Hindu who had a change in the quality of their life. Which according to you is evidence that Vishnu is real.

It is evidence of spiritual encounter...

Yep. Another check for Vishnu.

Yep...

If you mean Vishnu, then yep. Three check marks. That's pretty impressive evidence for Vishnu.

Yep...

Are you sure you want to use these life changes as evidence?

Yep...

Because there's many more gods who also might exist.

Yep -

We who worship the One God discern them all as lesser gods - Demons...

According to you...

According to the Ancient Faith of Christ...

The Eastern Orthodox Church...

Arsenios

 

[ToddNotTodd]

It is evidence of spiritual encounter...

First you said that changes in people's lives was evidence that a god existed. Now when I turn that around you say it's just evidence of a spiritual encounter. Doesn't seem very honest on your part, but ok.

Hindus might say that a Christian's testimony to a changed life is a spiritual encounter... with a demon. Sooooo, I'm not sure I'd be worshiping that...

And besides, what evidence do you have that a life changing event necessarily can't be non spiritual in nature? If you don't have an answer for that, you can't claim it to be true.

You know, Philosophy and all...

 

[ScottA]

When you asked Hitchslap "But are you haunted?" I was stunned. I'm still in school but I assure you none of my classmates would sound so incredibly puerile. Everything you say is so anti-intellectual. Now, you call me a follower of people and organised religion. Every person with any religion is a follower of people and religion of whatever stage of organisation and you can't even see that? But I know why you are doing this. It's to avoid an open argument. I've already said Jesus couldn't have said what he's reported to have said in Jn 3:3. You know you can't take me on on that. So you simply say I'm disqualified from arguing. That's intellectual cowardice.

Standing neck deep in the things of the world defending the ways of the world, is the problem. Your perspective is distorted by all the wrong influences. Your defense is the ways of men - evil, in nature.

But I welcome you or any "open argument", except those whom I have already determined are blatantly against God.

As for John 3:3, I have already taken you on that: Jesus' words are spirit, and your sighting one would be shortcoming of language that God himself has confused to confound the would be wise, against the immeasurable riches of the overall word of God - is non-existent.

But, no, that is not what disqualifies you, but rather where you making your stand.

Bring it on.

 

[Freodin]

I hate lies...

If the mind is only a function of the brain, then there can be neither truth nor error...

There can only be materially configured mental processes...

We are created in the image of God...

God is the Creator of material creation...

And it is you who possesses both mind and body...

Arsenios

And materially configured mental processes are never truth nor error?

I don't like being called a materialist by people who don't understand me... but I much less like to be called a materialist by people who do not understand materialism.

 

[Freodin]

Dear StTruth,
often it is claimed that it is their experiences with (a certain sort of) Christians that lead people to become atheists. I don't think this is how it works, at least not for this certain sort of atheists that I am familiar with and that I identify with.

But I understand that their experiences with (a certain sort of) Christians can make it very very hard for other Christians to want to identify as Christians.

Don't worry though. If you don't mind having the support of an atheist: I think you are doing fine.

 

[StTruth]

If the mind is only a function of the brain, then there can be neither truth nor error...

Arsenios

That is a totally fallacious statement. Truth or falsehood is independent of the mind (which is the process of the brain). Supposing there were no animals and no brains on this planet. That the moon is made of cheese is still a falsehood. Don't make a statement as if it were a truism when it's so obviously flawed.

 

[StTruth]

Dear StTruth,
often it is claimed that it is their experiences with (a certain sort of) Christians that lead people to become atheists. I don't think this is how it works, at least not for this certain sort of atheists that I am familiar with and that I identify with.

But I understand that their experiences with (a certain sort of) Christians can make it very very hard for other Christians to want to identify as Christians.

Don't worry though. If you don't mind having the support of an atheist: I think you are doing fine.

Hi Freodin,

I don't classify a person by his religion or his lack of religion. I divide people into only two groups - those who are rational and those who are not. I have to admit that from my experience, the rational group seems to attract more atheists than theists. Thanks for the support.

 

[Arsenios]

First you said that changes in people's lives was evidence that a god existed.

Yup...

Now when I turn that around you say it's just evidence of a spiritual encounter.

It is evidence...

Doesn't seem very honest on your part, but ok.

Because of the shift between an encounter with God and spiritual encounter?

An encounter with God IS a Spiritual encounter...
AND...
Not all spiritual encounters are with God...

Hindus might say that a Christian's testimony to a changed life is a spiritual encounter...
with a demon.
Sooooo, I'm not sure I'd be worshiping that...

Me neither...

But directly, they know many gods, so that they can only understand the Christian God in terms of their pantheon of gods, so we have to cut them some slack and pray for them...

And besides, what evidence do you have that a life changing event necessarily can't be non spiritual in nature?

Life indeed hands you changes in your life...

Glory to God!

If you don't have an answer for that, you can't claim it to be true.

I don't claim to be true - I claim to hate lies...

I sure try to be true, don't you?

You know, Philosophy and all...

Been there done that...
Got the T-Shirt...
Burned it...

Arsenios