How does one come to believe something?

[ToddNotTodd]

You all act like we all are bringing our case to you for approval so you can test our presentation. But in reality, it is you who are presenting yourselves to God, and your reservations and demands are causing you to loose your case. Your up is down.

Or... none of your claims are true. And you're not presenting evidence that rational people hold to be credible in order to test your claims. So... I don't see why anyone would listen to you. You sure don't seem to influencing anyone at all here...

 

[bhsmte]

Or... none of your claims are true. And you're not presenting evidence that rational people hold to be credible in order to test your claims. So... I don't see why anyone would listen to you. You sure don't seem to influencing anyone at all here...

He needs to think he has influence though.

 

[ScottA]

Or... none of your claims are true. And you're not presenting evidence that rational people hold to be credible in order to test your claims. So... I don't see why anyone would listen to you. You sure don't seem to influencing anyone at all here...

Rationalize this: the evidence is privileged to friendlies.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Rationalize this: the evidence is privileged to friendlies.

If you do have evidence and won't present it, no one should listen to you.

If you do have evidence and for whatever reason can't present it, no one should listen to you.

If you don't have evidence, no one should listen to you.

You're posting to a forum where you're doing more harm than good. I'm not the first person, atheist or Christian, to suggest this.

 

[HitchSlap]

Rationalize this: the evidence is privileged to friendlies.

You mean there's more like you?

 

[ScottA]

If you do have evidence and won't present it, no one should listen to you.

If you do have evidence and for whatever reason can't present it, no one should listen to you.

If you don't have evidence, no one should listen to you.

You're posting to a forum where you're doing more harm than good. I'm not the first person, atheist or Christian, to suggest this.

Is your rationalizer broken? Do you not understand what I said - That "the evidence is limited to friendlies?"

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Even hypothetically (if you prefer), humanity is either more than organic...or it is not.
...
If we can accept that humanity is more than organic - don't take my word for it - you explain it! Otherwise, either bear with me, or go your way.

This is simply incoherent...

If you are still with me then, ...
...
Now we live in a time when the spirit of God is poured out upon all people, and we are either internally drawn to Him, or we are not. If not, the gift of organic and natural life in the world is without haunt of loss - enjoy it! But if you are haunted - we have no need to convince you of anything - you will convince yourself - just try and stop it...you will see.

The most I can make of this is that: either we will believe, or we will not.

No offence, but it appears to be the trivially obvious wrapped in obfuscating bafflegab. Have I missed something?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Is your rationalizer broken? Do you not understand what I said - That "the evidence is limited to friendlies?"

I understood you. And I understand that you're dodging my response. Which isn't surprising. But it bears repeating:

If you do have evidence and won't present it, no one should listen to you.

If you do have evidence and for whatever reason can't present it, no one should listen to you.

If you don't have evidence, no one should listen to you.

Care to actually respond to that?

 

[ScottA]

This is simply incoherent...


The most I can make of this is that: either we will believe, or we will not.

No offence, but it appears to be the trivially obvious wrapped in obfuscating bafflegab. Have I missed something?

Everything...you missed everything. Which says a lot.

 

[ScottA]

I understood you. And I understand that you're dodging my response. Which isn't surprising. But it bears repeating:

If you do have evidence and won't present it, no one should listen to you.

If you do have evidence and for whatever reason can't present it, no one should listen to you.

If you don't have evidence, no one should listen to you.

Care to actually respond to that?

Well...since that is all completely one-sided, there is no real point...except to point out that it is no more rational for you to speak from one side only, than it is for me. And just as all that may defend your idea that I should come to you with the evidence, it does not defend why you will not come to me and get it.

So...did you come here just to make your stand off firm...or did you actually want to discuss the topic?

And I already did respond - twice, now thrice: If, as I say, "the evidence is limited to friendlies" - then your response is not rational in the least. But I have even gone on to explain why and show you that doing so is completely rational, even necessary. Still, you retreat to partisan ground, not even willing to try and understand...as if you had never heard of insider information and the like.

Care to be reasonable?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

...Here's my honest answer. How does one come to believe something? If the subject matter of the belief is baseless and evidence-less such as religion, we come to believe in it through our families. I was taught Christianity from the cradle. I was an altar boy for most of my life. I believed everything I was taught as a child and I thought the Bible was the inerrant word of God although inerrancy isn't taught in my church. It just seemed natural to think of God's word as inerrant since we always have to thank God in the response after each scriptural reading and it's hard for a child to think that God's word could be erroneous.

It was only very recently (after I grew out of my childhood) that I discovered that my religion is totally unsupported by any evidence and the Bible stands on shifting sand if you are thinking of reliability and validity. Even the canon of Scripture is highly suspect. There are so many things that can and did go wrong with the Bible that it's impossible to enumerate them. Scholars all know this and have written books on it.

So in answer to the OP question, I came to believe through my parents and the church. And I wised up after I acquired some knowledge through reading. This about sums up the matter honestly. That's all there is to the answer to the OP's question.

That's an excellent answer. The puzzle for me is that I too was brought up in a Christian environment, and went through all the rituals and fluff - I enjoyed a lot of it - but although I heard a lot about God, and bought into the idea of spirituality and a virtuous life, I never had any identifiable experience of God, and by the time I was thinking about that kind of thing independently, the concept seemed pointless, irrelevant, and full of contradictions; and the religion just another lifestyle choice... I wondered how many were telling themselves it was true and deliberately not thinking too deeply about it, how many were pretending just to feel part of something, and how many really believed. The more I learned about other people, other religions, and the way the world works, the more absurd it all seemed (the insistence on the supernatural).

Doesn't knowing that your belief structure is the arbitrary result of an accident of birth into a particular subculture give you pause to reconsider it? Given your acknowledgment (above) of what seem clear reasons not to believe - do you really still believe? If so, how do you reconcile your belief with those facts?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Alas! How quickly they forget!



If you had a spiritual understanding, we would have a basis of exchange, but by definition you have ruled this out and extol the brain above the mind, which is but a carnal [because your brain is flesh, you see...] grip...

So your spiritual understanding doesn't require a brain? Lol...

I couldn't agree more.

At least you do understand carnal and spiritual to be in apposition...

I believe you meant opposition...and yes, it seems carnal understanding requires a brain.

We already had this conversation, when I told you that if you go to people, you will find people, and when you go to God, you will have God, so that your petulence in this instance is mis-directed. You want answers to your questions, ya gots ta ask da Man! I am useless in that not-so-sincere quest...

So what is your relationship with god concerning? Can you speak with him or not?

Understanding>carnal subcategory...

...youalreadyknowthat...

It would seem to me that all understanding requires a brain...except for your understanding of god.

A great quest indeed, however you apply it to personal issues...



I do not have a personal interpretation of the Bible - I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian, and the understanding of the Bible I know is the understanding of that Faith Community that first wrote and then has interpreted the Bible for 2000 years now... Our Faith is God-based, and not Bible-Book-based, but is the Faith that gave us the Bible...

And you're Russian...correct? Oh how wonderful it must be to have found the correct interpretation just happened to be in the place you're from. Lol lucky you.

Its purpose is, by means of its futilities, including its termination, to lead us to an understanding that denies its life-giving efficacy, and in the agony of that betrayal of the promise of birth, to turn us to calling on the God from Whom we are now turned away, and to find Life Eternal and the Joy therein in that is only found in Him...

Now I know that sounds poetic, but it is true, and if my witness of the truth sounds like preaching to you, could you for once please just cowboy up y'er cinch-strap and git over it??

Sounds like life has been rather difficult for you.

Same reason you are - Personal integrity in the face of interior conflictions, and no experience of anything spiritual whatsoever...

Interior conflicts have nothing at all to do with my atheism.

Our calling is to the Source of the Creation and Sustaining of the whole of the Cosmos... That is not something we can do, but must be given - That Gift is called Grace... But I again run the risk of pushing your "Stop Preaching" buttons, which seem to cover you in so many places...

Oh it's not easy...but it can be done. Once you step back away from it, you realize that it was all in your head to begin with.

Look - NOBODY is that strong, and those who do the best at it all by themselves and abide awhile in self-congratulations do not rise above carnal - They become effective on earth, and then they die

I am. We all die...including you and everyone you've ever known.

... They do not ascend to Life in Christ... Christians are not concerned all that much with this earthly life... We are strangers to it, and anticipate departing from it with great Joy... Just as we walk upon this earth in great love for all...

That's certainly not how it looks. It appears as if christians are no different from most others...just a little more trusting and judgemental.

The only way you are going to get the answer you desire is to ask the One doing the "talking"...
Ask a person, you will only hear a person...

So you don't talk to him.

I totally get it that a carnal understanding can only understand a spiritual one as imagination... I used to live there...

'Nuff fer now!

I'm starting to think you still live in your imagination.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Everything...you missed everything. Which says a lot.

OK... stripped of florid poesy, the part I quoted seems to resolve to 'either you will believe or you won't', and the rest just seems to be a rather rambling description of your interpretation of the biblical background.

I suspect you can't or won't explain more coherently, so perhaps someone else here can explain what I missed in that post -

Anyone care to give me their understanding of it?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Rationalize this: the evidence is privileged to friendlies.

Lol well what does that tell you about the "evidence"?

 

[ScottA]

OK... stripped of florid poesy, the part I quoted seems to resolve to 'either you will believe or you won't', and the rest just seems to be a rather rambling description of your interpretation of the biblical background.

I suspect you can't or won't explain more coherently, so perhaps someone else here can explain what I missed in that post -

Anyone care to give me their understanding of it?

Okay...so I paraphrased the non-reality creation of our universe within the actual reality of the greater kingdom of God, and the terms of reconciliation with God - and your takeaway info...is pretty good.

The matter has so much detail to lay out and so many people are involved, that it spans all of history, moment by moment and person by person. The process is the dividing of light and darkness, with every day, through day and night. This, of course is all metaphoric language...because that is what we are dealing with: The world is a manifestation of all that God has done in the heavenly realm.

Where do you want to go from here?

 

[ScottA]

Lol well what does that tell you about the "evidence"?

To avert an incorrect answer, I will tell you: The evidence is holy (perfect)...(and this world is not).

 

[Ana the Ist]

To avert an incorrect answer, I will tell you: The evidence is holy (perfect)...(and this world is not).

Well there's evidence...like if I were place a pencil on a desk in a lobby somewhere. It doesn't matter what you believe, what race, religion, creed you're of....everyone can walk up to the desk and see that it's "evident" there's a pencil on it. Evidence reflects only reality...It's not partial to belief.

Then there's this stuff that you and your friend's think you know/see/hear which no one else can...because you want to feel special. That's not evidence.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Where do you want to go from here?

As I feel reasonably well versed in the broad sweep of the Christian tradition, having spent too many years under 'Religious Instruction', I'd rather like to hear what you said you could tell me of what you experienced personally that caused you to believe that this world is 'our grave' and we can't see beyond it unless we're 'born again of the spirit of God' (#1259). I already asked to hear this (#1274), but maybe you were too busy.

 

[bhsmte]

Rationalize this: the evidence is privileged to friendlies.

Sounds like, you have no evidence and this is a cop out.

 

[ScottA]

Well there's evidence...like if I were place a pencil on a desk in a lobby somewhere. It doesn't matter what you believe, what race, religion, creed you're of....everyone can walk up to the desk and see that it's "evident" there's a pencil on it. Evidence reflects only reality...It's not partial to belief.

Then there's this stuff that you and your friend's think you know/see/hear which no one else can...because you want to feel special. That's not evidence.

This is not that difficult. If you were in prison and you wanted to see if there was a pencil on the wardens desk - then, NO, you could not just walk in and see it. Is that too difficult to understand?