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How do you tell the difference

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by Clizby WampusCat, May 6, 2021.

  1. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    Show me where I scolded you.

    So killing the Amalekite babies was a righteous judgement on the babies? Why did they deserve judgement?

    Yes, but when the judge punishes others for the crimes someone else commits or inflicts undue suffering as a punishment I would call them immoral whether they have the right to impose the judgement or not.
     
  2. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

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    With their parents dead they would die a slow, horrible death. Better they are killed with their parents and older siblings. Even the young people would have been irretrievably infected with the Amalekite culture. God didn't want them anywhere near Israel.
     
  3. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    ImCo:
    Death is not a part or consequence of life...it is the wages for sin.
    Death proves sinfulness.
    ALL born into mankind are sinners as proven by the fact that infants in utero or new born die.

    ALL death and suffering is a punishment designed to reform the character of the person punished OR a judgement with no intent to reform but as a down payment on the justice they deserve.

    Earth was DESIGNED as the Prison Planet for sinners which is why Satan, his angels and the sinful elect were flung here, Revelation 12:9 The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. That GOD provided the sinful elect a rehab centre on earth in the church is a blessing to the whole world.
     
  4. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    Babies are no different from adults...all are sinners under the legal and natural consequences of choosing to sin by their free will. We seldom know the particular reason suffering is administered but 1 Samuel provides 2 This is what the LORD of Hosts says: ‘I witnessed what the Amalekites did to the Israelites when they ambushed them on their way up from Egypt. 3 Now go and attack the Amalekites and devote to destruction all that belongs to them.
     
  5. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    Again, the all powerful God could not have come up with a better way than to expose Satan that God controls anyway? Does God control Satan or not?
     
  6. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    This is the moral bankruptcy of the sin theology. We should punish people based on their actions and not because they have sinful flesh or for their thoughts. Killing babies is wrong inside or outside the womb at all times.

    Why are you against abortion then if these babies deserve death anyway for their sinful flesh and desires?
     
  7. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    What better way? Were not a lot of sinners punished or judged for their sin? Was not Satan's depth of sin exposed? Why is GOD using Job in his sin to expose Satan as not merely understood but fully evil a bad thing?

    What has POWER got to do with anything anyway? Does power make evil to be righteous? That is what judgement and punishment help to do. Can power make 3x3=76? We are not talking about things of power at all.

    GOD's control, pre-determnation, of all lives on earth is for a purpose, the redemption and sanctification of the sinful elect so that the postponement of the judgement will end and the eternally evil reprobate can be banished to the outer darkness... How are you going to prove (outside of strong opinion of course) any other method of achieving this aim is better than what GOD is doing? Or that this purpose is worthless...

    You want me to drop my faith in GOD, Christ's resurrection and our eternal heavenly life because of your opinion about things? My opinion of things is that my chances for happiness are far greater in reborn faith than in the world that nearly destroyed me thru my evil.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2021
  8. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    To suffer for the cause is a blessing. Since you have read some of the Old Testament, tell me this: Did the Jews do better being obedent children of God, when they were in slavery or when everything seemed to be going their way?
    It seems under severe persicution in Communist China there are more Christians going to house Churches on Sunday, then people going to church in all the West combined.

    Look up the requirements for a Jew in caring for foreigners in the promised land and the kind of people they were to be.
    A wonderful Loving parent do not "punish" their children but discipline them.
     
  9. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    You've been reading me for some time now so you know that I believe only sinners die, only those that choose to do evil acts suffer and die...you flip words as if they disagree with me but you cannot have an act that make you susceptible to punishment without accruing sinfulness.

    I contend that every person who is conceived (born or not) is thus proven to have done a sinful act before his conception...no innocent suffers or dies!

    As for sinful thoughts, Matthew 5:28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. James 1:14
    But each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed,
    and Thou shalt not covet, all disagree with you that adjudicating thought not to be sinful is wrong. Shall I follow you instead?
     
  10. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    God could have just killed Satan and left everyone else alone.

    How are you going to give good evidence that this is the best way? I don't know why God cannot fulfill his missions without killing millions in the process.

    I have never asked you to drop your faith in god. The fact is that if God is in control of everything and all powerful then he can punish evil when it happens and punish it appropriately.

    God could come here and explain it all to us so then we would have an informed choice of our actions. If God is moral and these actions are right then He should be able to explain it to us in a way we would understand.
     
  11. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    I don't think people going to churches when they are being persecuted is necessarily a good thing. Anyway, could God not have taught the Jews the same lesson another way? I bet He could have. I mean the lessons did not stick did they.

    This is not an answer to Where in the bible does it say this?


    I agree, but that is not what the bible actually says. Why is your translation better than the 36 translations I referenced?
     
  12. disciple Clint

    disciple Clint Well-Known Member

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    Who was going to care for the children? Children grow up and seek revenge for the killing of their parents, they also poison the minds of their children who also seek revenge. Look at the Palestinian people today.
     
  13. JohnClay

    JohnClay Married Mouth-Breather Supporter

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    BTW there's also:
    Deuteronomy 20:16-18
    But what about the cities the Lord your God is giving you as your own? Kill everything that breathes in those cities. Completely destroy them. Wipe out the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. That’s what the Lord your God commanded you to do. If you don’t destroy them, they’ll teach you to do all the things the Lord hates. He hates the way they worship their gods. If you do those things, you will sin against the Lord your God.
    So it seems killing everything that breathes is a way of trying to prevent God's people from sinning....
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2021
  14. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    Yes I completely agree except for the fact that there were a myriad of people who sinned exactly like he did, that fully agreed with him that such a rebellion was the best, most righteous, way to go. Then those who became elect by their faith before they ever sinned and therefore did not face judgment nor hell like their friends who chose to reject HIM totally (and came to be considered by GOD to be damned), also sinned by rebelling against the call to repudiate their friendship with the non-elect and thus forcing GOD to postpone the judgement day until GOD could redeem and sanctify these sinful elect because, as sinners, if the judgement was called before they were made holy, they too would be damned, Matt 13, the parable of the weeds in two parts which you obviously ignored as I've written this out for you at least twice before now...

    You keep asking, I keep answering so when you ask again, doesn't it imply you ignored my answer? As long as any elect is in sin, GOD cannot damn the reprobate, that is the non-elect, because HE promised not to ever judge the elect as part of the promise of their election and the judgement day will destroy every and all sinners.

    That is why He did not kill Satan the moment HE sinned - some of those who put their faith in HIM and were chosen, promised, to be saved, sided with Satan and needed redemption and sanctification before the judgement day could happen.

    Evil has natural and legal consequences. Every person who chose to sin understood what YHWH thought about the consequences of evil yet chose to sin anyway...so whose fault is the suffering and death...or do you think there should be no consequences for evil?

    HIS purpose was a holy marriage based upon love...which cannot be fulfilled without a free will acceptance of HIS proposal and a free will must be able to reject HIS purpose or it is not free - this is what caused the death of so many...as I have written in this forum twice or more already.

    And that is exactly what is happening here, but you don't like it.

    Evil is being exposed and punished here by suffering and death. Those people who can repent are having their eyes opened to the great evil in their own hearts / desires to understand both their need to repent and their need for a saviour, and are also having their eyes opened to the the eternal and completeness of the evil in the hearts / desire of the damned so they can repudiate the non-elect finally and come out from among them so that their damnation can finally be fulfilled.

    Why is this war against evil not yet over? Blame the sinful Christians for that and our general fragility that makes HIM need to go so slow with us...
     
  15. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    So this is your justification to kill them all? Just step back and look at how your belief is twisting your sense of decency.
     
  16. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    Yes, there are so many examples of this kind of thing in the Bible. I think more highly of the Christians that reject this and just try to believe in the loving and positive aspects of the doctrine.
     
  17. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    I have answered you. The parable of the weeds is false based on my experience.

    This seems like God created this problem with His system of election.

    There should be appropriate consequences for evil acts. Suffering forever is not appropriate. Torture at all for doing an evil act is evil.

    And I have answered already. God showing he exists to all and telling us the consequences of our decisions would not overrule our freewill. It would actually be the moral thing to do so we could make an informed decision.

    Why would I blame the sinful Christians when they were born sinful in a system that God setup? Are there sinless Christians?
     
  18. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    The Lord GOD who destroys sinful nations as a precursor / prediction to their banishment to hell IS our Lord Jesus, our Christ and savior!!!
     
  19. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    Of course it is...good luck with that.
     
  20. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat Well-Known Member

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    More assertions.
     
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