How do you tell the difference

[Clizby WampusCat]

Thank you for replying.

So how does maximizing the well being of all work when some people's well being involves other people's loss.
I am thinking of records, some people's well being is improved by ending the marriage. This though comes at the loss to any children in that marriage.
Stats show that records of their parents does harm children.

So in your view should records be easy when there are children or harder.

I assume by records you mean divorce? It depends on the situation. There are situations where someone will get hurt no matter what. The best choice is the one that maximizes well being for all. That could be to stay together or divorce. Maximize well being does not mean the act that will eliminate any suffering, some situations that is not possible, so we need to limit the suffering.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Wrong again.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

Adversity would be a better translation of the word used here.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

You might want to spend a little more time in study. You are calling God a lair, not me.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Isaiah 45

It did sound good though.

You might want to spend a little more time in study. You are calling God a lair, not me.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Isaiah 45

It did sound good though.

Light vs dark. Good comparison of opposites.

Peace vs evil? I don't think so.

Adversity is a better word (do a study on it).

 

[disciple Clint]

The flood, ordering the killing of the Amalakites, letting Satan kill Jobs family, letting children get raped everyday etc. etc. etc. The bible is full of them.

We live in a fallen world, it has consequences.
The Amalekites were a source of constant woe to Israel. Shortly after the Israelites left Egypt, the Amalekites attacked the weary people, slaughtering the weak and elderly (Deuteronomy 25:18). Even the Babylonians had a bad opinion of them, calling them “Khabbati,” or “plunderers.” The Amalekites and Caananites, among other nations, practiced child burning, torture as public entertainment, and sexual immorality as sport. Why did God order genocide? | News | Amazing Facts

The Israelites later avenged the attack and defeated the Amalekites, but failed to completely eradicate the nation. Israel was then plagued with continuous Amalekite raids (Exodus 17; 1 Samuel 15:2; Numbers 14:45). We can safely assume that God knew Amalekite decedents would always bear rage against His people. In the book of Esther, Haman the son of the Agagite, who was an Amalekite king, sought to exterminate all the Jews. Even today, the name Amalek is a symbol for hatred against Jews. How different things might be had Israel obeyed God to the letter? Why did God order genocide? | News | Amazing Facts

 

[RaymondG]

So now God does not know what is good or what is bad. Which is it? Does God know what is good and bad, yes or no?

I explained this already.... There is no good or bad. He knows what you desire and what you do not desire for yourself.. You are the one who call things, you dont like, bad and thing you want, good. But it is clear that not all people want the same things.....so good and bad is a perception of the individual.

 

[RaymondG]

Adversity would be a better translation of the word used here.

I agree that we can form any doctrine based on different interpretations of different verses. And, if we dont like how one bible translation translates a verse, there is a good chance that we can find an alternate translation that sounds more like what we believe.....given that there are so many translations out there.

I would refrain, however, from calling any quote from any of the translations false. But I find no fault in you doing so.

 

[RaymondG]

Light vs dark. Good comparison of opposites.

Peace vs evil? I don't think so.

Adversity is a better word (do a study on it).

Which bible translation, exactly, is it that you how found that better matched your believe concerning good and evil? Would you that the KJV bible is no longer that word of God now, since it contains a verse that you are telling us is directly opposed to what you are teaching here?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Which bible translation, exactly, is it that you how found that better matched your believe concerning good and evil? Would you that the KJV bible is no longer that word of God now, since it contains a verse that you are telling us is directly opposed to what you are teaching here?

The term evil in this verse is widely understood to mean calamity, or adversity, not outright evil (which is a different Hebrew word).

The KJV translation contains words that don't fully inform the reader, thus we study the original Hebrew and Greek dictionary for clarification. Word meanings change over time, thus the modern translations. One is outright wrong, pascha (passover) for example being translated as Easter. Also why the translators chose the word gave i.e. Eve gave (the fruit) to Adam and he did eat..., is a mystery.

 

[RaymondG]

The term evil in this verse is widely understood to mean calamity, or adversity, not outright evil (which is a different Hebrew word).

Even if we interpret the word differently.....would it be right to say that stating the words, as they are written in the bible, is false?

Since when do we call one a liar and liken them to atheists (as another poster who disagreed with the verse and marked your disagreement a "winner" did), Who simply quotes a verse without translation.

And how does this behavior make the religious look, to those on the outside?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Even if we interpret the word differently.....would it be right to say that stating the words, as they are written in the bible, is false?

Not at all, as long as the reader understands the intended meaning. Note that no wording in the KJV has ever been formally changed. However certain terms have been 'clarified' by scholars and ministers for hundreds of years, thus bible studies. The language of the KJV is...archaic, even while retaining it's authority and beauty.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Since when do we call one a liar and liken them to atheists (as another poster who disagreed with the verse and marked your disagreement a "winner" did), Who simply quotes a verse without translation.

No one called you, or the bible, a liar. TedT was just expressing wholehearted agreement with me.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Bottom line:

Slaves and slave owners are in no way hindered from becoming saved children of God, so it does not matter if you are a slave or slave owner. Remember the condition you are in through this short life helps willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective and not necessarily have a pleasant life on earth.

The Jews turned to God in slavery and seemed to turn away from God when things were going well.

So any suffering in this life does not matter?

Jews that did buy foreigners as slaves had a hug responsibility to care for them and be a blessing to all people (including their slaves), so hopefully the slaves of the Jews in the Promised Land would become Jews from the example of their master. There should be a much greater chance of them become part of God’s people as a slave of a Jew then remaining in a foreign land.

Where does it say this?

The word “punishing” can also be translated “disciplining”. “Disciplining” for the huge sin of idolatry can help anyone realize how bad this sin was and why I do not want to do it.

I looked at Numbers 14:18 on Bible Hub at 36 translations, not one used the word discipline.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

You constantly conflate evidence with proof. You ask for evidence but then reject it because it does not prove anything to you but only indicates where proof resides.

Knowing evidence is not PROOF, we can still assert:
The BIBLE IS EVIDENCE:
Acceptable to you or not, it is the premier evidence and claim that GOD is involved with humans to redeem us from evil. The Book is there, it is real. I will give you a copy if you doubt its reality. It has been an amazing in world influence out of proportion to its beginnings in a small dessert tribe from which it came.

THE LIFE OF CHRIST IS EVIDENCE:
Acceptable to you or not, the stories of the life of Christ have had a great impact upon whole cultures which proves its evidentiary status. Good evidence or insufficient evidence but it is evidence.

THE INDWELLING HOLY SPIRIT IS EVIDENCE:
Acceptable to you or not, those who experience a direct interaction / conversation / influence of God in their lives and thoughts have this experience as evidence. We will not be gaslighted by those who claim we are untrustworthy and making things up just because we accept the evidence we have seen which a skeptic has not yet seen.

THE CHANGE IN OUR VALUES SYSTEM IS EVIDENCE:
Acceptable to you or not, those who have been brought to repentance (had their eyes opened to their evil by being allowed to be evil until the suffering they have caused breaks them) and rebirth know they are different people and this metamorphosis is real and acceptable to them as evidence of GOD's work with them whether it can be argued it might be caused by other causes than GOD or not. All good things can be perverted to the use of evil, nothing is totally sacred on earth.

THE WITNESS OF PEOPLE WITH A SIMILAR EXPERIENCE IS EVIDENCE:
Acceptable to you or not, billions of people attesting to something is evidence. If they did not attest, there is no evidentiary value in their silence just like there is no evidence of a deity named HRUXIS because he has no book, no history of interaction with anyone, and no one attesting to his existence...That is no evidence!

A LACK OF EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF OF A LACK OF REALITY:
For a hundred years sailors who made it as far as Australia reported seeing black swans. They were scorned by the British natural societies as liars or hallucinators, destroying their reputations as scientists, because there was no evidence!...until there was. Someone finally got a carcass to Britain and this led to the the understanding of the logical fallacy that no evidence must mean no reality.

NO EVIDENCE is often seen to mean 'no proof' in writings about the roots of Christianity. No proof is the obvious meaning of no evidence when there is abundant evidence for belief...but it is not universally accepted.

Not accepting the evidence as sufficient for belief is NOT proof the evidence does not exist.

Peace, Ted

I have already addressed these the last time you pasted them. I never said there is no evidence I have repeatedly said there is no good evidence that convinces me.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

GospelS said: ↑
God has provided us with enough evidence.

Maybe for you but tis is a demonstrably false statement.

Disbelief is NOT proof that the evidence is false.

I never said it was. I said the evidence is not convincing. Why do you want to keep straw manning me?

Intransigence against belief is what leads to denial because we have all seen the truth of the hidden things of GOD and have no excuse.

So in summary:

1. I do not believe god exists, this is not asserting that god does not exist.
2. I am not convinced by the evidence I have evaluated so far that a god exists.
3. I am seeking truth and I want to know if a god exists.
4. I do not love my wrongdoing (sin).

Asserting what I think or believe is a dishonest debate tactic and I don't believe it is fruitful to continue. I have never done this to you. You want me to believe that I actually believe something that I don't know I believe. This is impossible.

So are you asserting that I am lying about these items?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

We live in a fallen world, it has consequences.
The Amalekites were a source of constant woe to Israel. Shortly after the Israelites left Egypt, the Amalekites attacked the weary people, slaughtering the weak and elderly (Deuteronomy 25:18). Even the Babylonians had a bad opinion of them, calling them “Khabbati,” or “plunderers.” The Amalekites and Caananites, among other nations, practiced child burning, torture as public entertainment, and sexual immorality as sport. Why did God order genocide? | News | Amazing Facts

The Israelites later avenged the attack and defeated the Amalekites, but failed to completely eradicate the nation. Israel was then plagued with continuous Amalekite raids (Exodus 17; 1 Samuel 15:2; Numbers 14:45). We can safely assume that God knew Amalekite decedents would always bear rage against His people. In the book of Esther, Haman the son of the Agagite, who was an Amalekite king, sought to exterminate all the Jews. Even today, the name Amalek is a symbol for hatred against Jews. How different things might be had Israel obeyed God to the letter? Why did God order genocide? | News | Amazing Facts

So God could not have come up with a better plan to get the same outcome without ordering the killing of children?

 

[TedT]

You might want to spend a little more time in study. You are calling God a lair, not me.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Isaiah 45

It did sound good though.

Please:
Isaiah 45:7
English Standard Version
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Berean Study Bible
I form the light and create the darkness; I bring prosperity and create calamity. I, the LORD, do all these things.

King James Bible
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. The KJV uses the word evil for רָ֑ע , ra', calamity or evil

Strong's Concordance: 7451. ra'
ra': adversity
Definition: bad, evil
1) bad, evil
1a) bad, disagreeable, malignant
1b) bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
1c) evil, displeasing
1d) bad (of its kind-land, water, etc)
1e) bad (of value)
1f) worse than, worst (comparison)
1g) sad, unhappy
1h) evil (hurtful)
1i) bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
1j) bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
1j1) in general, of persons, of thoughts
1j2) deeds, actions
n m
2) evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
2a) evil, distress, adversity
2b) evil, injury, wrong
2c) evil (ethical)
n f
3) evil, misery, distress, injury
3a) evil, misery, distress
3b) evil, injury, wrong
Ra' therefore as a range of meaning from a disagreeable unhappiness to sadness, from ethical evil to calamity. There is absolutely no reason in this context not to follow the old KJV usage of evil to mean calamity and to change it to mean moral evil. This interpretation of the word in this context contradicts far too many other verses about GOD's character and business.

So those of us who do not need to worship the god who creates evil to bolster our theology are in good standing with this bible verse, your smugness notwithstading.

No point is any further discussion....Since you dismiss words quoted from scripture...

NO sir, I dismiss your interpretation of one word from one verse....as a harbinger.

I'd suggest that you study the verses that my contention GOD does no moral evil were based upon and then tell us how they do NOT contradict your interpretation of ra' in Isaiah 45:7...except no Calvinist I know has ever been able to do that successfully since it is a matter of where your heart is at, where your faith is put, not in the meaning of a single word with multiple meanings, sigh.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I explained this already.... There is no good or bad. He knows what you desire and what you do not desire for yourself.. You are the one who call things, you dont like, bad and thing you want, good. But it is clear that not all people want the same things.....so good and bad is a perception of the individual.

So does god think rape is bad or is he just indifferent on the issue?

 

[TedT]

disciple Clint said: ↑
show me where He has done "bad things"

The flood, ordering the killing of the Amalakites, letting Satan kill Jobs family, letting children get raped everyday etc. etc. etc. The bible is full of them.

I'm sure it was you who scolded me for implying that a judge had aright to make judgements that caused suffering. Yet now you use the sufferings HE causes to deny HIS righteousness as a Judge?? Your need to be oppositional has twisted you up...

ALL suffering on earth is as a chastisement (suffering to create a change of heart, to impel repentance) OR it is a judgement, a punishment for evil done with no intent to cause repentance because the ones so judged cannot be brought to repentance as they are eternally evil having sinned the unforgivable sin.

As suffering ordered by the most high and righteous Authority of all, the suffering GOd causes that you refer to are all are quite legitimate and so are not morally evil at all. I ask you: Does a Judge not get to judge crimes even though suffering is caused? Is this suffering not caused by the criminal and not the Judge?

 

[RaymondG]

So does god think rape is bad or is he just indifferent on the issue?

I know it is hard to stop judging.....for it makes us feel as though we are like gods. But there is no need for it.

Do you believe there is a God? If not, why ask questions about the feelings of one who does not exist?

 

[TedT]

letting Satan kill Jobs family,

It is my opinion, albeit a Christian opinion that Job and GOD had made an agreement before Job was born that he would be the one chosen to expose the great evil Satan had sunk into to help free the sinful elect from their idolatry of him and his angels over GOD's command to come out from among them so they could be judged.

This was to expose to the whole world that evil not redeemed would indeed grow until it totally overcame every impulse of the person, (1 Corinthians 5:6 Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough?) by showing that Satan was willing to monster the most holy old man in the world just because he served YHWH who held him in good favour.

None of the sufferings of Job nor his family were outside of the ordinary suffering of life as a sinner but what Satan did to cause these disasters was unconscionable.