Amoranemix 141 said:
[5]You are mistaken. At best you can say that a necessary condition for a real marriage would be to make sure we have free will. That is however, not a sufficient condition, as the lack of such free marriage demonstrates. Morever, there is no requirement that God's wishes be fulfilled.
Furthermore, what evidence can you present that the ability to choose evil to the actual extent is an inevitable consequence of free will ?
Since I never claimed his to be a truth and in fact reject it wholeheartedly, I see no reason to try to make up any evidence it is true.[28]
From the very definition of a free will there can be inevitable result!
The lack of evidence presented in this thread supports the idea that God's goodness is not evidence based.
[28] Aha. So, according to you, free will makes the ability to choose evil inevitable, but not to the actual extent. Hence, free will cannot explain why there is so much ability to choose evil. Hence, the claim that a good god would not give is some many evil choices, remains unchallenged.
TedT 142 said:
Amoranemix 141 said:
[6] There are other ways than mind control to prevent evil. In addition, what God envisioned is irrelevant in relation to whether he is good according to himself. You a merely arguing that he was wise, not that he was good.
Moreover, scenarios with an evil god allowing good in order to have real, genuine rejection can be invented.
Anything can be invented as Satan proved when testing Christ but it is meaningless to to waste time on them.
You committed a straw man fallacy, for no one is suggesting we waste time on that. Presumably you are assuming that an evil god must be an invention, while a good one must be real. However, no justification for such distinction has been provided.
Amoranemix 70 said:
So far, no one has been able to prove there is such a thing as some kind of overarching, ruling idea of the “GOOD”.
Yeah..................that's what I was saying.
That is not what you said and most Christians disagree with that claim.
Neogaia777 153 to jayem said:
To make the highest good to come out of it in the end.
That point lifts up and redefines what good is. It means everything is good for those who love God. There is no evil if God is loved.[29] Just as at the beginning when God judged everything is good. It still is depending on our relationship with it's source. I'm reminded of something the Roman neighbors of persecuted Christians wrote. I paraphrase. " The Christians rejoice when persecuted for the opportunity to forgive, knowing forgiveness adds power to their prayers." [ . . . ]
[29] So you claim, but can you prove that ?
TedT 155 said:
Moral Orel said:
Right, of course. And what impact does this 100% guaranteed reciprocated love have on God's free will? Is his love not genuine because it won't happen any other way?
Ok, I amend what I wrote: No, He will not reciprocate our love when we love HIM because HE ALREADY LOVES US FIRST!.[30] If reciprocation means that HE responds to our love with a love that was not there before ours, it is the wrong word to use.
[30] What evidence can you present to support that claim ?
TedT said:
Amoranemix 141 said:
][7] All failures to love us are his, not ours.
[8] How so ?
[no response]
You forgot to answer my question.
TedT 156 to Moral Orel said:
To be a true free will, it is an absolute necessity that every and any option pertinent to the choice must be available to be chosen...[31]
IF love is to be real, the ability to reject love must be available.
IF a real marriage is available, rejection of the marriage proposal must be available.[32]
IF holy righteousness is available to be chosen then totally corrupt eternal evil must be available to be chosen by the rejection of righteousness.[33]
This is why GOD allowed evil to be created by the free will of HIS creation - it was an absolute necessity for the others to be able to respond freely to HIS loving proposal of marriage.[34]
[31] Are you going for the no true Sottsman fallacy ? Is it not true free will unless it meets the criteria that suit your beliefs ?
Why should people have true free will ?
[32] What relevance does that have ? How would absense of false gods make the millions of marriages yearly forced ?
[33] Why should that be ?
[34] Why would that be an absolute necessity ?
TedT 157 said:
Moral Orel said:
So God automatically loves everyone even if they don't love Him back, guaranteed 100%. Same question. Does that 100% guaranteed love mean that it isn't genuine because it won't happen any other way?
This question is so important to you that you are not following...there is no implication in this that GOD has no free will.
GOD loved all of his creation equally and fully.[35]
When some introduced evil into HIS creation by their free will choice to rebel, HE stopped loving them and started to hate them [36]:
Ps 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Psalm 11:5 The LORD tests the righteous and the wicked; His soul hates the lover of violence.
Psalm 10:3 For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth.
to abhor is to regard with
extreme hate, repugnance and loathing...
Then some of those He still loved chose to follow the ones HE hated into sin but HE did not start to hate them because HE had already chosen them for salvation because they had already put their faith in HIM as their God and Saviour before they sinned.[37]
Then when these sinful elect have their eyes opened to their evil and they become ashamed and repent, their rebirth restores their free will and their ability to love and they start to seek HIM in truth, He still loves them.[38] [ . . . ]
[35] That is not the impression the Bible gives.
[36] If you are right, then you dispelled the myth of God being love.
[37] How did sinning cause them to lose free will ?
[38] I assume you mean ashamed of their sins and repent for their sins. What does evil have to do with this ? What if these sinners don't open their eyes to evil, but still repent for their sins ?
Most understand that if they change their behaviors, in accord with God's will, good things would happen. That they choose not to is on them. What more is needed?[39] Regarding the innocent; children are sanctified by believing parents. Of course 'time and chance' can happen to them as well.
[39] The one thing Christians can't provide : evidence.