How do you know God is good?

[Amoranemix]

An evil God wouldn't give us good choices.[5]
We just make the wrong choices. We do that a lot.

[5] What evidence can you present to support that claim ?

[no response]

That is less evidence than I expected and is woefully insufficient to warrant belief in your claim.

[3] Indeed, it isn't. Human life is the cause of most of our problems.
[4] Why would that be ?

[no response]

You forgot to answer my question.

A good God wouldn't give us evil choices.

Please consider:
A good GOD who wanted to have a real marriage with us based upon love had to create us with a free will, that is, the ability to choose good OR reject it for evil was an absolute necessity.[5]

Think of forcing someone to love you. Any force at all: a direct threat like a gun, a psychological manipulation, hypnosis, drugs... I shouldn't have to tell you that none of these things can produce love. If GOD created us without the ability to choose to reject love, we also would have no ability to choose true love, ie our so called love would be by HIS will, not our own, not our choice, not true to us. This could make us a Stepford wife, obviously not the spiritual joining of two people by their free will HE envisioned.[6]

[5]You are mistaken. At best you can say that a necessary condition for a real marriage would be to make sure we have free will. That is however, not a sufficient condition, as the lack of such free marriage demonstrates. Morever, there is no requirement that God's wishes be fulfilled.
Furthermore, what evidence can you present that the ability to choose evil to the actual extent is an inevitable consequence of free will ?
[6] There are other ways than mind control to prevent evil. In addition, what God envisioned is irrelevant in relation to whether he is good according to himself. You a merely arguing that he was wise, not that he was good.

Moreover, scenarios with an evil god allowing good in order to have real, genuine rejection can be invented.

atheism is part of the corruption
atheists being more corrupted

How so ?

the wrong view leads ever in the wrong direction

Maybe so, but that doesn't answer my question. That Christians are ever led in the wrong direction does not explain how atheists are supposed to be part of the corruption and being more corrupted.

God created life.
I'm alive and loving it.
Therefore God is good.

You know at least two bad arguments.

[ . . . ]If we are not completely logical, how would be know WHICH Commandments would be helpful? [ . . . ]

Not so hard if you know the reasons for those laws.

God's ego.
In order to follow those commandments one would need to be infatuated with God in addition to being logical.

So, "based solely on observation" what exactly is "good"? What is "evil"?
You can insist on strict empiricism if you'd like, but non-empirical considerations are baked into the question you're asking.

Indeed. Observation alone cannot establish the meaning of words.

All failures to love HIM are ours [7], not HIS. Our decision to be sinful in HIS eyes destroyed our ability to truly love anyone except in lesser worldly fashion.[8]

[7] All failures to love us are his, not ours.
[8] How so ?

Assuming that good is God's nature, you claim that there are universal God's natures. What evidence can you present that is indeed the case ?

[no response]

Again I expected there would be more evidence.

 

[TedT]

Furthermore, what evidence can you present that the ability to choose evil to the actual extent is an inevitable consequence of free will ?

Since I never claimed his to be a truth and in fact reject it wholeheartedly, I see no reason to try to make up any evidence it is true.

From the very definition of a free will there can be inevitable result!

 

[TedT]

[6] There are other ways than mind control to prevent evil. In addition, what God envisioned is irrelevant in relation to whether he is good according to himself. You a merely arguing that he was wise, not that he was good.

Moreover, scenarios with an evil god allowing good in order to have real, genuine rejection can be invented.

Anything can be invented as Satan proved when testing Christ but it is meaningless to to waste time on them.

 

[jayem]

The pot without a potter.The pot could not imagine a potter if one never existed. It would be outside the pots mental scope. Supernatural so to speak.

I’m not quite sure of your point. Here’s mine: There have been many, many gods in the world. The Greeks worshipped Zeus, Hera, and Phoebus Apollo. The Egyptians had Amun-Ra, Osiris, and Horus. In India, prayers are still said to Brahma, Shiva, and Vishnu. The Aztecs observed rituals (including human sacrifice) to Huitzilopochtli. The Mormons believe God, the Father, was once an ordinary man who became exalted. There have been thousands of gods throughout history. Do you believe these gods really exist? You know they’re all fabricated. Humans have always created gods to explain what wasn’t understood. That’s what I mean when I say we are potter, and God is the pot. Your god is the one made up by the ancient Hebrews. Who later became 3 gods in one. Other than faith, why do you think your particular god is the “real” God. And—apart from your faith in the Bible and Christian tradition—how can you know that your God is exclusively good?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So far, no one has been able to prove there is such a thing as some kind of overarching, ruling idea of the “GOOD”.

Yeah..................that's what I was saying.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

You know at least two bad arguments.

Subjective perhaps, but that's my conclusion.

 

[Neogaia777]

People see what they want to see, or don't want to see, etc...

I see intelligence in the design, and that it is by design, etc...

And that One is/always was/will be "the Father", etc...

And I have other evidence for God in and of the OT of the Bible, whom I think is the Holy Spirit, etc...

And Satan, or a Satan also, etc...

And angels or angelic spirits also, etc...

And then Jesus obviously existed, etc, and what is written about him, he did and was done by him, etc, or at least that's what I believe, etc, and what he said was very, very true, etc, and way, way ahead of it's time, etc, and I don't think him, or the people who wrote about him were liars, etc...

But people see what they want to see, or else, don't want to see, etc...

Really, our minds were/already are, etc, pretty much already made up from the very, very beginning, etc...

That by the Father, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

And it's also very clear who all those others gods are or were, etc, from the Christian religion and perspective anyway, they are the angels who saw an opening, and forsook their dwelling places in Heaven, and came down here to occupy places where they could be worshiped by men, or receive worship as "gods" from men, etc...

Many of them have changed forms over the many years many different times, etc...

This was not against the Father God's will though, etc... Still isn't, etc...

But they will receive their due recompense in or by the end, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Eloy Craft]

I’m not quite sure of your point. Here’s mine: There have been many, many gods in the world. The Greeks worshipped Zeus, Hera, and Phoebus Apollo. The Egyptians had Amun-Ra, Osiris, and Horus. In India, prayers are still said to Brahma, Shiva, and Vishnu. The Aztecs observed rituals (including human sacrifice) to Huitzilopochtli. The Mormons believe God, the Father, was once an ordinary man who became exalted. There have been thousands of gods throughout history. Do you believe these gods really exist? You know they’re all fabricated. Humans have always created gods to explain what wasn’t understood. That’s what I mean when I say we are potter, and God is the pot. Your god is the one made up by the ancient Hebrews. Who later became 3 gods in one. Other than faith, why do you think your particular god is the “real” God. And—apart from your faith in the Bible and Christian tradition—how can you know that your God is exclusively good?

Human knowledge is built up, divine revelation comes down from above. Religion resolves the problems of suffering and death primarily. Divine revelation introduces concepts that aren't built from the ground over generations but we're never imagined. It comes down from above a new reality unforseen. The Christ Event contains the qualities of a revelation from above. Jesus is that revelation from above that introduces what can never be imagined by human reason alone. The transformation of suffering intop a means of sanctity and salvation. Who'da thunk?.

 

[jayem]

And it's also very clear who all those others gods are or were, etc, from the Christian religion and perspective anyway, they are the angels who saw an opening, and forsook their dwelling places in Heaven, and came down here to occupy places where they could be worshiped by men, or receive worship as "gods" from men, etc...

Many of them have changed forms over the many years many different times, etc...

This was not against the Father God's will though, etc... Still isn't, etc...

But they will receive their due recompense in or by the end, etc...

God Bless!

All of what you mentioned are matters of faith. And I can’t argue against faith. But the veracity of such beliefs isn’t empirically demonstrable in the way we can determine the force of gravity, or the incompressibility of a liquid, or that heat energy always flows downhill.

 

[jayem]

And it's also very clear who all those others gods are or were, etc, from the Christian religion and perspective anyway, they are the angels who saw an opening, and forsook their dwelling places in Heaven, and came down here to occupy places where they could be worshiped by men, or receive worship as "gods" from men, etc...

In my earlier post, I forgot to ask a question. If the Biblical god is the one, true God—who loves and desires a relationship with mankind—why would these angels be allowed to pose as false gods? Paul wrote that God is not the author of confusion. It doesn’t make logical sense that a multiplicity of imposter gods are permitted to confuse and deceive so many people.

 

[Moral Orel]

If I choose to love God, will He love me right back, guaranteed 100%?

IF, after you are cured of your addiction to evil and
IF you meet HIM and talk with HIM over dinner and
THEN when you know HIM you decide that you love HIM, be assured this love will be 100% reciprocated because HE loved you first.

Right, of course. And what impact does this 100% guaranteed reciprocated love have on God's free will? Is his love not genuine because it won't happen any other way?

 

[Neogaia777]

In my earlier post, I forgot to ask a question. If the Biblical god is the one, true God—who loves and desires a relationship with mankind—why would these angels be allowed to pose as false gods? Paul wrote that God is not the author of confusion. It doesn’t make logical sense that a multiplicity of imposter gods are permitted to confuse and deceive so many people.

To make the highest good to come out of it in the end.

Do I understand all of it right now, all the exact specific details of every exact specific detail right now, no I don't, cause then I'd be God, but I know that is the reason.

God Bless!

 

[Eloy Craft]

To make the highest good to come out of it in the end.

That point lifts up and redefines what good is. It means everything is good for those who love God. There is no evil if God is loved. Just as at the beginning when God judged everything is good. It still is depending on our relationship with it's source. I'm reminded of something the Roman neighbors of persecuted Christians wrote. I paraphrase. " The Christians rejoice when persecuted for the opportunity to forgive, knowing forgiveness adds power to their prayers."
Kind of pagan thinking but it illistrates early Christian life. Life in the valley of death with no fear of evil because there is nothing evil to those who love God.
Bless you.

 

[TedT]

Right, of course. And what impact does this 100% guaranteed reciprocated love have on God's free will? Is his love not genuine because it won't happen any other way?

Ok, I amend what I wrote: No, He will not reciprocate our love when we love HIM because HE ALREADY LOVES US FIRST!. If reciprocation means that HE responds to our love with a love that was not there before ours, it is the wrong word to use.

 

[TedT]

If the Biblical god is the one, true God—who loves and desires a relationship with mankind—why would these angels be allowed to pose as false gods?

The Bible story of GOD's interaction with mankind ends with HIS marriage to HIS holy church, not the cleansing of all reality from evil. The cleansing was only a precursor, a necessary thing to allow the wedding to proceed and established in heaven.

Since it is the culmination of of HIS story with us, I believe it must also be the purpose HE created us to fulfill, ie, to be HIS Bride. But every real marriage based upon a true love must also be based upon the free will acceptance of the marriage proposal since neither a real marriage nor a true love can be forced, especially not by HIM creating us to only be able to accept HIM, like a Stepford Wife.

This need for our free will due to HIS purpose for us is why I contend that GOD created every person in HIS image (that is, as a suitable marriage partner) with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to choose to put their faith in HIS claims to be our creator GOD and that salvation from sin was only found in the Son OR to reject HIM as a liar and false god.

To be a true free will, it is an absolute necessity that every and any option pertinent to the choice must be available to be chosen...

IF love is to be real, the ability to reject love must be available.
IF a real marriage is available, rejection of the marriage proposal must be available.
IF holy righteousness is available to be chosen then totally corrupt eternal evil must be available to be chosen by the rejection of righteousness.

This is why GOD allowed evil to be created by the free will of HIS creation - it was an absolute necessity for the others to be able to respond freely to HIS loving proposal of marriage.

 

[Moral Orel]

Ok, I amend what I wrote: No, He will not reciprocate our love when we love HIM because HE ALREADY LOVES US FIRST!. If reciprocation means that HE responds to our love with a love that was not there before ours, it is the wrong word to use.

So God automatically loves everyone even if they don't love Him back, guaranteed 100%. Same question. Does that 100% guaranteed love mean that it isn't genuine because it won't happen any other way?

 

[TedT]

So God automatically loves everyone even if they don't love Him back, guaranteed 100%. Same question. Does that 100% guaranteed love mean that it isn't genuine because it won't happen any other way?

This question is so important to you that you are not following...there is no implication in this that GOD has no free will.

GOD loved all of his creation equally and fully.
When some introduced evil into HIS creation by their free will choice to rebel, HE stopped loving them and started to hate them: Ps 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Psalm 11:5
The LORD tests the righteous and the wicked; His soul hates the lover of violence.
Psalm 10:3
For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth. to abhor is to regard with extreme hate, repugnance and loathing...

Then some of those He still loved chose to follow the ones HE hated into sin but HE did not start to hate them because HE had already chosen them for salvation because they had already put their faith in HIM as their God and Saviour before they sinned.

Because they sinned they lost their free will and their willingness to love HIM but HE did not stop loving them - the story of the prodigal son is a perfect example.

Then when these sinful elect have their eyes opened to their evil and they become ashamed and repent, their rebirth restores their free will and their ability to love and they start to seek HIM in truth, He still loves them. HE does not start to love them because HE never quit loving them. This is the basis for Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. HE hates only those condemned already.

Now, as for your suggestion that for GOD to be bound is proof of a lack of free will, it is not. IF HE chooses to be bound by HIS morality and HIS unwillingness to sin it is HIS will to do so, not some force outside of HIMself forcing HIM to be who HE is or to love whom HE loves...

 

[HitchSlap]

This question is so important to you that you are not following...there is no implication in this that GOD has no free will.

GOD loved all of his creation equally and fully.
When some introduced evil into HIS creation by their free will choice to rebel, HE stopped loving them and started to hate them: Ps 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Psalm 11:5
The LORD tests the righteous and the wicked; His soul hates the lover of violence.
Psalm 10:3
For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth. to abhor is to regard with extreme hate, repugnance and loathing...

Then some of those He still loved chose to follow the ones HE hated into sin but HE did not start to hate them because HE had already chosen them for salvation because they had already put their faith in HIM as their God and Saviour before they sinned.

Because they sinned they lost their free will and their willingness to love HIM but HE did not stop loving them - the story of the prodigal son is a perfect example.

Then when these sinful elect have their eyes opened to their evil and they become ashamed and repent, their rebirth restores their free will and their ability to love and they start to seek HIM in truth, He still loves them. HE does not start to love them because HE never quit loving them. This is the basis for Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. HE hates only those condemned already.

Now, as for your suggestion that for GOD to be bound is proof of a lack of free will, it is not. IF HE chooses to be bound by HIS morality and HIS unwillingness to sin it is HIS will to do so, not some force outside of HIMself forcing HIM to be who HE is or to love whom HE loves...

Cool story. Any evidence that any of this comports with reality?

 

[Moral Orel]

This question is so important to you that you are not following...there is no implication in this that GOD has no free will.

I never said any such thing. God has free will, sure. And God loves us, guaranteed 100%, and has free will. So it's entirely possible for any and all of His creation to love Him, guaranteed 100%, and have free will.

IF HE chooses to be bound by HIS morality and HIS unwillingness to sin it is HIS will to do so, not some force outside of HIMself forcing HIM to be who HE is or to love whom HE loves...

And He will definitely make those choices, guaranteed 100%, and His free will isn't affected in any way. I agree with you. What I disagree with is this idea that God can do it, but He can't create anyone else that can do the same thing.