How do you know God is good?

[Neogaia777]

Want to know how hell comes into play and what it really is and is like and really truly why some people actually go there/stay here, etc...?

And then why the ones who don't go there go to heaven maybe, etc...?

This creation, and the ones prior to it, and the ones that will be after it maybe, etc...?

How Genesis is fully reconciled with evolution and how they do not contradict or ever come into conflict at all ever, etc...?

Or maybe the "True Trinity", etc, and each one of those members whole story, etc, which I just barely touched on just a little bit just now on here, etc...?

Predestination, Full Omniscience from the very beginning, and free will, etc...?

Talk about the angels maybe, fallen or otherwise, etc...?

The Father God's overall plans, and the reason for all of "this" that is right now maybe, etc...?

Or maybe "something else" maybe...?

Like I said, PM me, but right now, I'm going to bed, and have plans for tomorrow, so might be a day or two till I get around to answering, etc...

Night, and...

God Bless!

 

[Eloy Craft]

I've watched people martyr themselves (and kill thousands in the process) live on TV. Didn't do much about my lack of faith.

That isn't an authentic martyrdom. It's not something anyone can decide to do or plan. It's a road one is lead to. A road that narrows until someone puts a rope around your waist and takes you where you don't want to go. Remember Jesus praying for a way out?

 

[Bradskii]

That isn't an authentic martyrdom. It's not something anyone can decide to do or plan. It's a road one is lead to. A road that narrows until someone puts a rope around your waist and takes you where you don't want to go. Remember Jesus praying for a way out?

People who fly planes into buildings have most definitely made a decision to do so. For reasons that they believe are valid, are the will of tbeir prophet and will further their cause. And it is done with forethought and planning. From this: Religious Foundations of the Last Instructions of 9/11 | Oxford Research Encyclopedia of Religion

"An instruction manual consisting of four sheets in Arabic was found with three of the four teams that performed the terror attacks on the United States on September 11, 2001. The writing conceived of the action as a raid (ghazwa), as we know it from early Islamic history. It instructed the teams how to perform the ghazwa correctly. Purifying their intentions by recitals, rituals, and bodily cleaning, they turn their attack into an act of worship. A part called the “second stage” anticipates the issue of assuring divine protection at the airport. Finally “a third stage” urges the teams to act in the plane according the practice of the Prophet and to achieve martyrdom."

 

[TedT]

God the Father has no rivals or enemies, but predestined all...

If HE is ALL LOVING and all benevolent as I think then HE cannot have, would never have, predestined the fall of anyone. The fall, each person's first venture into rebellious sin had to be by their free will decision to do so.

 

[TedT]

But as we are all sinners, are you saying that none of us has free will?

Yes...we make choices but all our choices and decisions are ruled by the spirit of sin within us. We are not yet fully leavened in evil and so become like Satan who is fully leavened but every decision the sinner makes is tainted by a sinful desire somewhere in the decision if only that it expresses our being separated from GOD which is to be sinful. A sinner's truest and deepest love however expressed is idolatry of their chosen love over the call to love their GOD first and foremost.

If sinners DO have a free will and choose to reject HIM then grace through faith to bring us to redemption and rebirth is against our free will and all our boasting that our GOD would never go against anyone's free will is moot.

I suspect it is only our rebirth in HIS Spirit that restores our free will as a new person after which experience our lapses into sin (due to our memories of the pleasures and profits of sin, not to our past enslavement to it) can be harshly disciplined as our training in righteousness, Heb 12:5-11, as we choose by our free will either the high road of serving each other humbly in love or the low road of indulging in the flesh, Gal 5:13, earning discipline.

 

[TedT]

Remember Jesus praying for a way out?

Since Jesus came to die on the cross it makes no sense that He prayed to pass it by...More probably He was in such distress in the garden that He thought He was going to die and miss the cross and that is the cup He asked to be removed so He could fulfill the path to the cross.

 

[Moral Orel]

This question is so important to you that you are not following...there is no implication in this that GOD has no free will.

I never said any such thing. God has free will, sure. And God loves us, guaranteed 100%, and has free will. So it's entirely possible for any and all of His creation to love Him, guaranteed 100%, and have free will.

Now, as for your suggestion that for GOD to be bound is proof of a lack of free will, it is not. IF HE chooses to be bound by HIS morality and HIS unwillingness to sin it is HIS will to do so, not some force outside of HIMself forcing HIM to be who HE is or to love whom HE loves...

And He will definitely make those choices, guaranteed 100%, and His free will isn't affected in any way. I agree with you. What I disagree with is this idea that God can do it, but He can't create anyone else that can do the same thing.

What happened, Ted? You dropped off there. Did you miss my response? Basically you're saying that it's logically coherent for a being to have free will and never ever (100% guaranteed) choose to sin. So are you saying that God is incapable of creating such a logically coherent being?

 

[TedT]

Did you miss my response?

Hmmm, I guess I did...

Basically you're saying that it's logically coherent for a being to have free will and never ever (100% guaranteed) choose to sin.

I agree that it is logical believe this and I think it actually happened because there are angels in heaven who are holy and elect, ie, who are not sinners and never did sin.

So are you saying that God is incapable of creating such a logically coherent being?

This question seems to contradict were we got to before...
How does accepting that GOD can create people with a free will able to choose never to sin make HIM unable to create people with a free will unable to choose to sin? <confused>

To have a free will is to be able to choose any of the pertinent options to the choice without any coercion to choose one way or the other or constraint against being able to choose one option or the other.

 

[Bradskii]

Yes...we make choices but all our choices and decisions are ruled by the spirit of sin within us.

But what if we decide to do something good? It just sounds like you're saying that we have free will but that it only works when we decide to make good decisions. Bad ones are made by something evil in us compelling us to take the immoral path and overriding our free will.

So who made the decision for me to have a poached egg for breakfast? And who decides if an action is evil?

 

[Bradskii]

To have a free will is to be able to choose any of the pertinent options to the choice without any coercion to choose one way or the other or constraint against being able to choose one option or the other.

But we are always 'coerced'. There are always 'constraints'. We can call them something inoccuous like 'reasons' but they amount to the same thing. There's always an internal debate going on whenever we make any decision. From what career to choose to whether we have vanilla or chocolate. And that debate will use the current conditions plus information and experiences that we have had in the past which will lead to a specific decision.

If we rerun the tape on every decision we make, then the current conditions and that previous information we posess and the previous experiences that we had will be exactly the same. And must result in the same decision being made. In that scenario, in what sense do we have free will - the ability to change that decision?

 

[Neogaia777]

If any God absolutely knew/knows everything from the beginning to end, etc, but from the beginning, etc, then He knows all outcomes of all supposed choices, correct...?

And if He knows the outcome of any and all choices, made by anyone or anything, anyone or anything not fully Him from the beginning, etc, then how can you/me/we, or anything from the very beginning not fully Him from the very beginning, make a real true choice, etc...?

And make a real true choice at "anywhere along the way", etc...? If He "already knows", etc...?

Then think about what He bases that knowledge on, etc...?

"How" does He know all outcomes of any and all choices from the very beginning, etc...?

Well, I'll tell you...

He knows because He set everything in motion, etc, and because, like a break on a pool table, he already knew all the trajectories and force of all the balls, or stuff, and how they would all interact/collide, etc, and where they would all wind up, where they all would stop, and where or how they would all continue to roll or move again, etc, etc, etc, so on and so forth, etc, from the very beginning of anything or all things, etc...

We don't make choices, but all is cause and effect, etc, and there is/was/still is, etc, only one way things can go only, and only one place things or anything can wind up, or start or end, or end or start, etc, starting only with what He initiated or started or set in motion only, from the very beginning only, etc...

Only one way things can/could, etc, ever can/could only go only, etc...

It is a straight line, and all goes in a straight line, etc, and there are no such things, and never were any such things, as any other kinds of "possibilities", etc...

Please note that I am talking about the "Father God" only in this specific instance only here, etc, from that One's perspective only, etc...

For there may not even be "free will", in that ones eyes, even for all the angels, and even for the other two members of the Trinity here even, etc...

And most definitely not for us, tiny little, very limited, "things", etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

If any God absolutely knew/knows everything from the beginning to end, etc, but from the beginning, etc, then He knows all outcomes of all supposed choices, correct...?

And if He knows the outcome of any and all choices, made by anyone or anything, anyone or anything not fully Him from the beginning, etc, then how can you/me/we, or anything from the very beginning not fully Him from the very beginning, make a real true choice, etc...?

And make a real true choice at "anywhere along the way", etc...? If He "already knows", etc...?

Then think about what He bases that knowledge on, etc...?

"How" does He know all outcomes of any and all choices from the very beginning, etc...?

Well, I'll tell you...

He knows because He set everything in motion, etc, and because, like a break on a pool table, he already knew all the trajectories and force of all the balls, or stuff, and how they would all interact/collide, etc, and where they would all wind up, where they all would stop, and where or how they would all continue to roll or move again, etc, etc, etc, so on and so forth, etc, from the very beginning of anything or all things, etc...

We don't make choices, but all is cause and effect, etc, and there is/was/still is, etc, only one way things can go only, and only one place things or anything can wind up, or start or end, or end or start, etc, starting only with what He initiated or started or set in motion only, from the very beginning only, etc...

Only one way things can/could, etc, ever can/could only go only, etc...

It is a straight line, and all goes in a straight line, etc, and there are no such things, and never were any such things, as any other kinds of "possibilities", etc...

Please note that I am talking about the "Father God" only in this specific instance only here, etc, from that One's perspective only, etc...

For there may not even be "free will", in that ones eyes, even for all the angels, and even for the other two members of the Trinity here even, etc...

And most definitely not for us, tiny little, very limited, "things", etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

So, what does God base His choice or choosing on...?

He bases it only on His choosing or choice(s) only, etc...

And "any other questions" that following this line of reasoning or logic brings up, I'm going to have to ask that you PM me for, if you really truly genuinely want to know, etc, as I know your human rebelliousness is already being stirred up inside of you, and is already kicking and screaming, or is right now throwing a major fit, or is having a major temper tantrum, etc...

If you PM me, then I'll tell you how it is "fair", etc... But if not, then don't expect me to go into to much more detail into it on here, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Now the beauty of it, is the plain and simple fact that "we" "don't know", etc, "don't know" what has already been set in stone for us to either do or not do, or change or try to change, or to maybe not try to change or alter maybe, etc, we don't know any of that, etc, not one bit of it, etc, so we still have at least the illusion of choice still, etc, but only based on what we "don't know", etc...

Because our choices, are still always still, not really chosen by us really, but only by only what was going on with us and/or happening to us prior to it always only, etc... and then that prior to that, only by what was going on or happening to or with us or around us prior to that, etc, then that prior to that, etc, etc, etc, going "all the way back to the very very beginning" with the true Father God only, etc, who was the number one original cause and only true source of any and all of it only, etc, who really chose it only, etc...

But we always have to proceed as if we do actually make those choices, even if, technically, we really do not genuinely truly really, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Moral Orel]

I agree that it is logical believe this and I think it actually happened because there are angels in heaven who are holy and elect, ie, who are not sinners and never did sin.

Good, we agree on that too. So God can make people that have free will, and always 100% guaranteed choose the Good, so why make people that will choose the Bad? (Now that we know it isn't because of free will).

God freely chooses to love His creation, and He always will, it won't ever be any other way, and He has free will. So why not make people that will freely choose to love God, and they always will (even though they have free will), and it too won't ever be any other way?

 

[Bradskii]

If any God absolutely knew/knows everything from the beginning to end, etc, but from the beginning, etc, then He knows all outcomes of all supposed choices, correct...?

And if He knows the outcome of any and all choices, made by anyone or anything, anyone or anything not fully Him from the beginning, etc, then how can you/me/we, or anything from the very beginning not fully Him from the very beginning, make a real true choice, etc...?

And make a real true choice at "anywhere along the way", etc...? If He "already knows", etc...?

I'm far from convinced that this is an argument against free will.

Let's say that you spin a coin. There is nothing to contrain it to land on heads or tails. It's purely arbitrary. Now imagine that you had the temporary ability to see the future. And you look forward a few minutes and see that the coin landed on heads. Does your knowledge change the fact that it was an arbitrary event? Not at all.

It's nonsense to suggest that every coin toss you don't see in the future is arbitrary and every one that you do see is fixed in some way. It would be the same with God. Just because He knows how a coin toss (or a choice you make) will eventuate doesn't fix that result in advance.

 

[klutedavid]

Other than having faith in the Bible, and religious tradition, is there any way to know that the biblical God is morally good? Based solely on observation, it’s far more logical to believe that God—if one even exists—is one of 3 possibilities:

1) Dualistic. Sometimes good, sometimes evil. Or possibly 2 gods—one good, and one evil, in constant struggle with each other.
2) Morally neutral and uninvolved.
3) Morally evil and deceptive.

God is love according to the scripture, that is, beyond how we we would even define 'good'. Besides, we don't define God as such, as that is impossible to do.

 

[Bradskii]

God is love according to the scripture, that is, beyond how we we would even define 'good'. Besides, we don't define God as such, as that is impossible to do.

Unless we can use terms that we can actually understand then it becomes a complete waste of time discussing someone who is indescribable, indefinable and unknowable.

 

[Neogaia777]

I'm far from convinced that this is an argument against free will.

Let's say that you spin a coin. There is nothing to contrain it to land on heads or tails. It's purely arbitrary. Now imagine that you had the temporary ability to see the future. And you look forward a few minutes and see that the coin landed on heads. Does your knowledge change the fact that it was an arbitrary event? Not at all.

It's nonsense to suggest that every coin toss you don't see in the future is arbitrary and every one that you do see is fixed in some way. It would be the same with God. Just because He knows how a coin toss (or a choice you make) will eventuate doesn't fix that result in advance.

God does not have to see the future, He already made it, etc...

And a coin toss/spin is not arbitrary, many factors come into play before it that makes it land on either heads, or else tails, etc, and those factors were dictated/already decided by factors before it, etc, and those factors, by factors before it/them, going all the way back to whom I've already said, who knew/made it all, initiated it all, etc, from the very, very beginning, etc...

The initial act, being like a cue ball on or before a break on a pool table, only you already know, by what exact and specific angle, and force applied exactly, etc, position of the pool stick, and any other factors, etc, how it was going to affect all the other balls and everything else, even before you broke it, etc, so that, before you even broke it, you could already tell anyone even before you did, where exactly everything (all the other balls/stuff) was going to be, how it was all going to be going/moving/rolling/interacting/affecting, etc, etc, etc, at any given point in time that they might ask you about it/them, at any given point they might ask you about them, etc...

It is the same with all the "stuff" in this entire universe, etc, including us, etc...

We don't choose, and nothing does, for God already did, etc...

It goes in a straight line, only one way it can go, from the very beginning, etc...

All the way back to the One who made it or initiated it and knew all about it before it even began, or before He even started it, etc...

And He knows everything in-between also, etc, like I already said, etc, because He already knew/knows it all, from the very, very beginning, etc...

Every single particle, atom, or ray, etc, at any given nanosecond, at any point in time, you might ask Him, etc...

It goes in a straight line, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Bradskii]

God does not have to see the future, He already made it, etc...

This is where we differ.

 

[Neogaia777]

I'm far from convinced that this is an argument against free will.

Let's say that you spin a coin. There is nothing to contrain it to land on heads or tails. It's purely arbitrary. Now imagine that you had the temporary ability to see the future. And you look forward a few minutes and see that the coin landed on heads. Does your knowledge change the fact that it was an arbitrary event? Not at all.

It's nonsense to suggest that every coin toss you don't see in the future is arbitrary and every one that you do see is fixed in some way. It would be the same with God. Just because He knows how a coin toss (or a choice you make) will eventuate doesn't fix that result in advance.

God sees all, not just some, but all, etc...

Now if you want to talk about "the other two members of the Trinity", either God the Spirit in the OT, or Jesus Christ in the NT, etc, then they are/were able to see/know some things, or many things, in the future in advance, etc, but not ever past a decision or choice where they could not foresee the outcome, etc, but could maybe tell it one of two ways maybe, or their vision and ability to predict, would start to get cloudy at that point maybe, etc...

The wicked were never a mystery to them though, for their course and path is very, very easy to fully know and fully predict, cause He/They all know, all of them, that there end is destruction, etc, and those paths seem very easy to fully know and predict for them, etc, and for "any of them", etc...

But if were talking about the Father, nothing and no one has ever been a mystery to Him, not even the other two, etc... And all are bound up in His will always, etc...

God Bless!