• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

How do you know God is good?

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by jayem, May 8, 2021.

  1. JohnClay

    JohnClay Married Mouth-Breather Supporter

    +163
    Australia
    Other Religion
    Married
    AU-Greens
    Well that is the reason why God could be 100% moral.
     
  2. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid Triangulating THE WAY out of the void! Supporter

    +7,227
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    That's strange. When I read your OP, I didn't read it as directly referring to, and only referring to, value concerns which are "practical and everyday." In fact, to my mind, it smacks of Philosophy 101, in its Epistemological and Axiological concerns, as well as of Metaphysical considerations that would be necessary to even begin to address its Theological inquiry.

    But, I get it. You live in a different world than I do.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2021
  3. jayem

    jayem Naturalist

    +5,594
    Atheist
    Married
    There are times when I enjoy a philosophical discussion. But in this thread, I’m an empiricist. Which I define as verification by observation or experience. As I stated in the OP, it cannot be determined by observation that God is good. (By which I mean exhibiting and acting with predictable and consistent beneficence.) Empirically, it’s more likely that God (assuming such an entity exists) is a mixture of good and evil, or is evil and deceptive, or is morally detached, or has no moral nature whatsoever. That’s all that can be said by a purely empirical approach. Believing anything else about God is a matter of faith.
     
  4. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid Triangulating THE WAY out of the void! Supporter

    +7,227
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    "Purely Empirical"? :scratch:

    Whatever. This conversation is hitting an epistemic impasse, I see, so I'm out.
     
  5. Moral Orel

    Moral Orel Proud Citizen of Moralton Supporter

    +2,240
    United States
    Agnostic
    Married
    A good God wouldn't give us evil choices.
     
  6. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

    +10,071
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    US-Others
    God gives us good choices. The Devil gives us the bad ones.

    We need free will in order to choose either. Character is built upon making good choices in the face of the temptation of bad choices.
     
  7. Moral Orel

    Moral Orel Proud Citizen of Moralton Supporter

    +2,240
    United States
    Agnostic
    Married
    No, not really. The Devil may tempt you to make a bad choice, but God created the options in the way He designed the world. For instance, God created us with physical bodies therefore it's possible to thwonk each other on the head. The Devil may tempt you to thwonk, but it's God who created the option.
    A good character is built upon making good choices in the face of the temptation of bad choices. An evil character is built upon making evil choices in the face of the temptation of good choices. We need free will in order to choose either. An evil God would want us to freely choose evil and therefore must allow for good choices.
     
  8. JohnClay

    JohnClay Married Mouth-Breather Supporter

    +163
    Australia
    Other Religion
    Married
    AU-Greens
    From the Christian movie "Time Changer"

    "Satan is not against good morals. He is opposed to the Name of Jesus Christ."
     
  9. Amoranemix

    Amoranemix Democrat

    901
    +30
    Atheist
    Single
    Christians make God good by defining good ambiguously in function of God's nature. Hence, God is merely good according to himself, like Adolf Hitler, Pol Pot and Bashar Al Assad are good according to themselves.

    [1] God bears no responsibility for that, for he never does anything and has never done anything. However, if Christians were right, God would have started it all and thus he would bear responsibility. That would however in no way need to diminish his goodness according to himself.
    [2] Satan being in charge would have required God doing something, namely creating Satan, which would make God partly responsible.

    Aha. You accuse God of using mind control to coerce people to his view. He does not appear succesfull though.

    Given that God is good by definition, how could you possibly conclude otherwise ? You could be watching paint dry and still be able to conclude God is perfectly good (according to himself).

    [3] Indeed, it isn't. Human life is the cause of most of our problems.
    [4] Why would that be ?

    [5] What evidence can you present to support that claim ?

    [6] You are mistaken. There are plenty of natural disasters that are not man's doing.
    [7] You are biased.
    [8] The problem with that kind of communication to people who don't know the God-favouring redefinition of 'good' is that it is misleading.

    How so ?

    You assume morally good (GM) is only beneficial, whereas morally good often leads to worse.
    There are plenty of things god fails at.

    A failure of God to bring a final end to greater good in our dreaded timeframe is not a failure to do so.

    If Christians were right, not everyone would die.

    Assuming that good is God's nature, you claim that there are universal God's natures. What evidence can you present that is indeed the case ?

    So far, no one has been able to prove there is such a thing as some kind of overarching, ruling idea of the “GOOD”.
     
  10. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

    +10,071
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    US-Others
    I believe that the Holy Spirit is required to make that determination. I have determined that God is good.
     
  11. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

    572
    +85
    Canada
    Christian
    Married
    Please consider:
    A good GOD who wanted to have a real marriage with us based upon love had to create us with a free will, that is, the ability to choose good OR reject it for evil was an absolute necessity.

    Think of forcing someone to love you. Any force at all: a direct threat like a gun, a psychological manipulation, hypnosis, drugs... I shouldn't have to tell you that none of these things can produce love. If GOD created us without the ability to choose to reject love, we also would have no ability to choose true love, ie our so called love would be by HIS will, not our own, not our choice, not true to us. This could make us a Stepford wife, obviously not the spiritual joining of two people by their free will HE envisioned.

    Now about marriage: are we really thinking that a forced marriage with an inability to choose anyone but he who we were forced to marry is a real mariage? That is fits the highest definition of marriage of the joining of two souls into one? Why would GOD go for the most worldly definition of marriage that may be legal in some nations as the best definition of HIS heavenly marriage when it could be a choice by our free will to accept HIS proposal of a full communion of telepathic love and communication among all the heavenly residents including GOD at all times forever?

    Therefore a real marriage based upon a true love MUST be by a free will decision to accept the husband's proposal and for a will to be truly free, it must be able to choose any of the pertinent options, uncoerced to choose only one option and not constricted from choosing any option.

    Therefore I can't consider that you are describing a good god at all but a narrow minded god happy with a Stepford wife who can only do exactly what he wants by his will.
     
  12. jayem

    jayem Naturalist

    +5,594
    Atheist
    Married
    And my point is that your determination is ultimately based on faith. God’s claimed goodness can’t be determined by observation.

    Suppose a race of intelligent aliens could observe events on our planet. They understand the concepts of goodness and benevolence. They think and form opinions using the same principles of logic as we do. And they know that many of us earthlings believe in an omnipotent higher power who is claimed to be perfectly righteous, loving, and benevolent. They observe many good things that happen—acts of kindness, charity, and brotherhood. But they also see much pain, brutality, misery, and suffering experienced by innocent young children and other people who do no harm, and are only trying to live their lives in peace. Could these observers logically conclude that the supreme being of this world is really an all good, all benevolent diety?
     
  13. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

    +10,071
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    US-Others
    You make a huge assumption that we think logically. If we thought logically we would obey the commandments.
     
  14. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

    +706
    United States
    Skeptic
    Private
    All of them, or just the ones you like?
     
  15. JohnEmmett

    JohnEmmett Well-Known Member

    +112
    United States
    Buddhist
    Celibate
    atheism is part of the corruption
    atheists being more corrupted

    the wrong view leads ever in the wrong direction

     
  16. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

    +706
    United States
    Skeptic
    Private
    Second response... I think you missed @jayem 's point...

    He seems to essentially be asking about the distinction between 'moral evil' and 'natural evil'. If a God is claimed to be 'good', why impose "natural evil" on individuals prior to the age of their accountability?
     
  17. JohnEmmett

    JohnEmmett Well-Known Member

    +112
    United States
    Buddhist
    Celibate
    you have choices and God is good

     
  18. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

    +10,071
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    US-Others
    The ones that are related to the problems.

    Looking at the world I'd say most of them would be helpful.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2021
  19. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

    +10,071
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    US-Others
    Parents are accountable for their children's safety.
     
  20. JohnEmmett

    JohnEmmett Well-Known Member

    +112
    United States
    Buddhist
    Celibate
    children are accountable for their own safety


     
Loading...