How do you know God is good?

2PhiloVoid

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Who cares about an overarching, absolute concept of good? Metaphysics is for Philosophy 101. My concerns are those practical, everyday values that make our lives worth living. My question is how can anyone know that God—assuming a God exists—reflects and supports these values?

That's strange. When I read your OP, I didn't read it as directly referring to, and only referring to, value concerns which are "practical and everyday." In fact, to my mind, it smacks of Philosophy 101, in its Epistemological and Axiological concerns, as well as of Metaphysical considerations that would be necessary to even begin to address its Theological inquiry.

But, I get it. You live in a different world than I do.
 
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jayem

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That's strange. When I read your OP, I didn't read it as directly referring to, and only referring to, value concerns which are "practical and everyday." In fact, to my mind, it smacks of Philosophy 101, in its Epistemological and Axiological concerns, as well as of Metaphysical considerations that would be necessary to even begin to address its Theological inquiry.

But, I get it. You live in a different world than I do.

There are times when I enjoy a philosophical discussion. But in this thread, I’m an empiricist. Which I define as verification by observation or experience. As I stated in the OP, it cannot be determined by observation that God is good. (By which I mean exhibiting and acting with predictable and consistent beneficence.) Empirically, it’s more likely that God (assuming such an entity exists) is a mixture of good and evil, or is evil and deceptive, or is morally detached, or has no moral nature whatsoever. That’s all that can be said by a purely empirical approach. Believing anything else about God is a matter of faith.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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There are times when I enjoy a philosophical discussion. But in this thread, I’m an empiricist. Which I define as verification by observation or experience. As I stated in the OP, it cannot be determined by observation that God is good. (By which I mean exhibiting and acting with predictable and consistent beneficence.) Empirically, it’s more likely that God (assuming such an entity exists) is a mixture of good and evil, or is evil and deceptive, or is morally detached, or has no moral nature whatsoever. That’s all that can be said by a purely empirical approach. Believing anything else about God is a matter of faith.

"Purely Empirical"? :scratch:

Whatever. This conversation is hitting an epistemic impasse, I see, so I'm out.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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A good God wouldn't give us evil choices.

God gives us good choices. The Devil gives us the bad ones.

We need free will in order to choose either. Character is built upon making good choices in the face of the temptation of bad choices.
 
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Moral Orel

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God gives us good choices. The Devil gives us the bad ones.
No, not really. The Devil may tempt you to make a bad choice, but God created the options in the way He designed the world. For instance, God created us with physical bodies therefore it's possible to thwonk each other on the head. The Devil may tempt you to thwonk, but it's God who created the option.
We need free will in order to choose either. Character is built upon making good choices in the face of the temptation of bad choices.
A good character is built upon making good choices in the face of the temptation of bad choices. An evil character is built upon making evil choices in the face of the temptation of good choices. We need free will in order to choose either. An evil God would want us to freely choose evil and therefore must allow for good choices.
 
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JohnClay

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God gives us good choices. The Devil gives us the bad ones.
From the Christian movie "Time Changer"

"Satan is not against good morals. He is opposed to the Name of Jesus Christ."
 
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Amoranemix

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There could be a fourth possibility - that God is good... perhaps based on God's definition of morality...
Christians make God good by defining good ambiguously in function of God's nature. Hence, God is merely good according to himself, like Adolf Hitler, Pol Pot and Bashar Al Assad are good according to themselves.

God has made it clear that "stuff" happens to us ("time and chance"). He even allows misfortune to happen to his chosen people. That's life on planet earth.What this reveals is that the right way of life is indeed "strait", or difficult and finite. Mankind is quickly going the other way, the "broad" way that leads to the destruction of man and of the earth.[1]

We also have to consider that Satan is still mostly in charge down here. God only intervenes to keep his plan 'on time and on budget'.[2]
[1] God bears no responsibility for that, for he never does anything and has never done anything. However, if Christians were right, God would have started it all and thus he would bear responsibility. That would however in no way need to diminish his goodness according to himself.
[2] Satan being in charge would have required God doing something, namely creating Satan, which would make God partly responsible.

OldWiseGuy 13 to jayem said:
God places his spirit into those he chooses.
They begin to think as he thinks.
They come to understand what is ultimately good.
However this is counter to what the world thinks is good.
At this time we are helpless to accomplish real good.
Admittedly it's frustrating at times.
Aha. You accuse God of using mind control to coerce people to his view. He does not appear succesfull though.

OldWiseGuy 14 to jayem said:
The way to determine the goodness of God is to follow his instructions for you, revealed in his word and by his spirit, and judge the results. Based on this I judge God to be good...very good. :bow:
Given that God is good by definition, how could you possibly conclude otherwise ? You could be watching paint dry and still be able to conclude God is perfectly good (according to himself).

OldWiseGuy 19 said:
jayem 16 said:
You don’t have to be Mother Theresa just to use basic logic.
Isn't human logic the cause of most of our problems?[3] We need more Godly logic in our thinking.[4] Suck it up and do the right thing.

Even Mother Theresa knew there was something horribly wrong on the earth.
[3] Indeed, it isn't. Human life is the cause of most of our problems.
[4] Why would that be ?

OldWiseGuy 25 said:
jayem said:
Maybe because that’s what an evil God intended.
An evil God wouldn't give us good choices.[5]
We just make the wrong choices. We do that a lot. :(
[5] What evidence can you present to support that claim ?

When I see evil on the earth, it's always man's doing.[6] But when I look at the creation alone, I see only evidence of God's benevolence toward us [7] - the green grass, blue skies, birds chirping in the morning and crickets at night, trees and flowers. His intentions toward us are obviously good.[8]
[6] You are mistaken. There are plenty of natural disasters that are not man's doing.
[7] You are biased.
[8] The problem with that kind of communication to people who don't know the God-favouring redefinition of 'good' is that it is misleading.

Tinker Grey said:
Ah. So downgraded from "obviously good" to "remnant."
atheism is part of the corruption
atheists being more corrupted
How so ?

JohnEmmet 42 said:
Tinker Grey said:
So your defense of your god's failure to stop evil is tu quoque?
you assume evil is only bad

whereas evil often leads to better

hence God is not failing…
You assume morally good (GM) is only beneficial, whereas morally good often leads to worse.
There are plenty of things god fails at.

Rachel20 43 said:
Tinker Grey said:
So your defense of your god's failure to stop evil is tu quoque?
I believe God has been stopping even greater evil all along (2 Thess 2), but will make a final end of it at some point in the future. A failure to do so in our preferred timing isn't a failure to do so.
A failure of God to bring a final end to greater good in our dreaded timeframe is not a failure to do so.

johnEmmett 45 said:
jayem said:
I’m not sure how Christianity’s doctrine of man’s fallen condition can logically explain the 2004 tsunami that killed at least 225,000 people in Malaysia and southeast Asia.

everyone dies at some point

why are you concerned about timing
If Christians were right, not everyone would die.

InterestedAtheist 8 To Eloy Craft said:
How do we know that good exists?
Because there are universal goods.
Assuming that good is God's nature, you claim that there are universal God's natures. What evidence can you present that is indeed the case ?

No, those things [health, safety, faithful friends, …] simply make up a generic list of common values, but they don't establish any kind of absolute metaphysic informing an "official" body of axiological principles. All you have are preferences. If we're not sociopathic/psychopathic, then we each generally lean toward the items you've listed; but there's nothing in the universe that imposes upon us a recognition of any of this stuff.

So, let's not conflate a subjectively constructed list of 'generally beneficial things for human survival' with some kind of overarching, ruling idea of the "GOOD." These are two different things ...
So far, no one has been able to prove there is such a thing as some kind of overarching, ruling idea of the “GOOD”.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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But consider option #3—God is evil, but deceptive. We know from experience and observation that there is much inexplicable pain and misfortune in world. Young children below the age of accountability are abused, become sick, and die miserably. The wicked often prosper while the righteous suffer. This would be expected if God is evil. But if God is also deceptive, he would allow some mercy, love, beauty, happiness, and answered prayers. All to disguise his true nature. Even the Jesus narrative could be deceptive. His birth, ministry, death, and resurrection could have happened exactly as the gospels describe. But it’s all a ruse to dupe believers. An evil God doesn’t need a reason to do this. It’s just his inherent nature to be evil and duplicitous. The world could look the same as it does now. Other than by faith, how can you know God if good, evil, or both?

I believe that the Holy Spirit is required to make that determination. I have determined that God is good.
 
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TedT

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A good God wouldn't give us evil choices.
Please consider:
A good GOD who wanted to have a real marriage with us based upon love had to create us with a free will, that is, the ability to choose good OR reject it for evil was an absolute necessity.

Think of forcing someone to love you. Any force at all: a direct threat like a gun, a psychological manipulation, hypnosis, drugs... I shouldn't have to tell you that none of these things can produce love. If GOD created us without the ability to choose to reject love, we also would have no ability to choose true love, ie our so called love would be by HIS will, not our own, not our choice, not true to us. This could make us a Stepford wife, obviously not the spiritual joining of two people by their free will HE envisioned.

Now about marriage: are we really thinking that a forced marriage with an inability to choose anyone but he who we were forced to marry is a real mariage? That is fits the highest definition of marriage of the joining of two souls into one? Why would GOD go for the most worldly definition of marriage that may be legal in some nations as the best definition of HIS heavenly marriage when it could be a choice by our free will to accept HIS proposal of a full communion of telepathic love and communication among all the heavenly residents including GOD at all times forever?

Therefore a real marriage based upon a true love MUST be by a free will decision to accept the husband's proposal and for a will to be truly free, it must be able to choose any of the pertinent options, uncoerced to choose only one option and not constricted from choosing any option.

Therefore I can't consider that you are describing a good god at all but a narrow minded god happy with a Stepford wife who can only do exactly what he wants by his will.
 
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jayem

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I believe that the Holy Spirit is required to make that determination. I have determined that God is good.

And my point is that your determination is ultimately based on faith. God’s claimed goodness can’t be determined by observation.

Suppose a race of intelligent aliens could observe events on our planet. They understand the concepts of goodness and benevolence. They think and form opinions using the same principles of logic as we do. And they know that many of us earthlings believe in an omnipotent higher power who is claimed to be perfectly righteous, loving, and benevolent. They observe many good things that happen—acts of kindness, charity, and brotherhood. But they also see much pain, brutality, misery, and suffering experienced by innocent young children and other people who do no harm, and are only trying to live their lives in peace. Could these observers logically conclude that the supreme being of this world is really an all good, all benevolent diety?
 
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OldWiseGuy

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And my point is that your determination is ultimately based on faith. God’s claimed goodness can’t be determined by observation.

Suppose a race of intelligent aliens could observe events on our planet. They understand the concepts of goodness and benevolence. They think and form opinions using the same principles of logic as we do. And they know that many of us earthlings believe in an omnipotent higher power who is claimed to be perfectly righteous, loving, and benevolent. They observe many good things that happen—acts of kindness, charity, and brotherhood. But they also see much pain, brutality, misery, and suffering experienced by innocent young children and other people who do no harm, and are only trying to live their lives in peace. Could these observers logically conclude that the supreme being of this world is really an all good, all benevolent deity?

You make a huge assumption that we think logically. If we thought logically we would obey the commandments.
 
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cvanwey

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You make a huge assumption that we think logically. If we thought logically we would obey the commandments.

Second response... I think you missed @jayem 's point...

He seems to essentially be asking about the distinction between 'moral evil' and 'natural evil'. If a God is claimed to be 'good', why impose "natural evil" on individuals prior to the age of their accountability?
 
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OldWiseGuy

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All of them, or just the ones you like?

The ones that are related to the problems.

Looking at the world I'd say most of them would be helpful.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Second response... I think you missed @jayem 's point...

He seems to essentially be asking about the distinction between 'moral evil' and 'natural evil'. If a God is claimed to be 'good', why impose "natural evil" on individuals prior to the age of their accountability?

Parents are accountable for their children's safety.
 
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