How do you know God is good?

[Neogaia777]

This is where we differ.

Why...? Just because I call it "God", etc...?

Do you believe in "cause and effect", etc...?

Yes or No, etc...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Let's say that you spin a coin. There is nothing to constrain it to land on heads or tails. It's purely arbitrary. Now imagine that you had the temporary ability to see the future. And you look forward a few minutes and see that the coin landed on heads. Does your knowledge change the fact that it was an arbitrary event? Not at all.

I think it most certainly does change the fact of it being an arbitrary event, into something that is not, or never was, etc, if you had the ability to see it, etc...

It's nonsense to suggest that every coin toss you don't see in the future is arbitrary and every one that you do see is fixed in some way.

All of them are fixed, you just didn't see or look at some of them, etc...

It would be the same with God.

No it would not be the same with God, but only with us, etc...

Just because He knows how a coin toss (or a choice you make) will eventuate doesn't fix that result in advance.

I think it does, etc...

Your trying to treat God as if He is like one of us, etc, going back and/or into the future and only seeing pieces and parts of the future, etc, but it is not like that with God, etc, for He sees and knows all, etc, and did from the very beginning, etc, so your trying to reason Him out with Him being like one of us is very "limited" in scope... (sorry, etc)...

You have to remember that he knows/always knew, etc, "absolutely everything", etc, and always did/does from the very beginning, etc, also to the very ending, and everything and anything at all at any given point in-between, etc...

God Bless!

 

[klutedavid]

Unless we can use terms that we can actually understand then it becomes a complete waste of time discussing someone who is indescribable, indefinable and unknowable.

No one can understand the infinite. Nor do I think, that anyone can comprehend perfect divine love. I don't even understand how anyone could define the Spirit.

So we cannot adequately define the terms, let alone understand the concepts that the terms describe.

What is the point of all this?

 

[Bradskii]

Why...? Just because I call it "God", etc...?

Do you believe in "cause and effect", etc...?

Yes or No, etc...?

God Bless!

If God exists then I wouldn't believe that He has set everything in stone. If you think that, you are the first person in very many years discussing these matters on forums such as this who holds to such a view.

 

[Bradskii]

No one can understand the infinite. Nor do I think, that anyone can comprehend perfect divine love. I don't even understand how anyone could define the Spirit.

So we cannot adequately define the terms, let alone understand the concepts that the terms describe.

What is the point of all this?

Well, Klute, I'm with you. I have no idea either...

 

[Neogaia777]

If you think that, you are the first person in very many years discussing these matters on forums such as this who holds to such a view.

I'll take that as a compliment...

Well, calling it a night now, for now, good night.

God Bless!

 

[Bradskii]

I'll take that as a compliment...

Well, calling it a night now, for now, good night.

God Bless!

I guess you gotta be west coast...

 

[Neogaia777]

I guess you gotta be west coast...

Yes, that's right, Oregon more specifically.

But, getting late here so calling it a night.

Good night all!

God Bless!

 

[TedT]

But what if we decide to do something good? It just sounds like you're saying that we have free will but that it only works when we decide to make good decisions. Bad ones are made by something evil in us compelling us to take the immoral path and overriding our free will.

So who made the decision for me to have a poached egg for breakfast? And who decides if an action is evil?

No, I am saying sinners do not have a free will until rebirth.

The ability to make choices does NOT prove the will is free from coercion, the coercive enslaving power of evil. If our wills were free we would be able to choose a 100% righteous action and save ourselves from the grip of sin but that is not available to us so we need the redemption found in Christ.

Why are our best choices, our most righteous decisions, thoughts and passons counted as filthy rags? The sinfulness of a person permeates every part of his life, even the best parts, contaminating his best so it is filthy, not good. How else could Paul write: Rom 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do. But what I hate, I do.

Yes you chose your egg but that is NOT proof that the moral content of your choice was free to be righteous...the ability to choose and a free will are different things.

 

[TedT]

If any God absolutely knew/knows everything from the beginning to end, etc, but from the beginning, etc, then He knows all outcomes of all supposed choices, correct...?

I have come to discredit this presupposition...it leads directly to HIS creating those who would fall into demonhood and eternal damnation while knowing this would be their end. I cannot countenance this as the actions of a most loving, righteous and just creator...it just doesn't fit.

Therefore I believe HE knows everything about what HE created in the physical universe as all references to the fullness of HIS being all knowing always refer to the physical universe, even the heart of man living a predetermined life.

But if He did not creates something, then HE would not know it. This leaves us with the possibility that HE did not create the results of any free will decision for any person but allowed us to create those decisions for ourselves and HE did not know what we would create until we made our choice.

Therefore, before creation, HE did NOT know who would sin the unforgivable sin but created them anyway. And after we are fully sanctified, our free will restored by the power of sin being broken for us, we will have no more need for predetermined lives and we will be free from HIS control to do as we want within this universe, living in the full telepathic communion of loving communication with all others in the heavenly marriage including GOD, at all times.

 

[TedT]

Good, we agree on that too. So God can make people that have free will, and always 100% guaranteed choose the Good, so why make people that will choose the Bad? (Now that we know it isn't because of free will).

God can make people that have free will is a direct contradiction to always 100% guaranteed choose the Good.

You seem to be trying to make a point by extrapolating from my words but each time you do you contradict my words as if that is a logical method...??? To create a free will cannot be countered with the creation of a limited, constrained, will unable to choose evil that is not free just because you don't like where they took their freedom...

I agree GOD can create a free will that can choose 100% good but then to say that HE must be able to repeat that as the only creation is so confusing because the 100% good could have chosen sin - they just did not. For a will to be free then it must be able to freely reject GOD's goodness and so to sin.

HE created us to be HIS Bride based upon a loving relationship so our free will to enter this marriage is an absolute necessity to fulfill HIS purpose as no love can be forced and no forced marriage is real. And for our free will decision to accept HIS marriage proposal to be real we had to have the ability to reject that proposal, to reject HIM and so to create sin in HIS creation.

 

[TedT]

God freely chooses to love His creation, and He always will, it won't ever be any other way, and He has free will. So why not make people that will freely choose to love God, and they always will (even though they have free will), and it too won't ever be any other way?

If you make people only able to love you then you are creating a Stepford Wife, a robot, not a person with a free will.

...to make people that will freely choose to love God, and they always will implying that they cannot do otherwise is to deny them free will... not an expression of their free will at all.

Just saying that they have a free will but can only love is illogical. The will must be free to choose no matter what it might choose before it chooses.

 

[Moral Orel]

God can make people that have free will is a direct contradiction to always 100% guaranteed choose the Good.

No, we've already established that it's entirely possible to have free will and always 100% guaranteed choose the Good (God does it) so there's no logical contradiction. Having free will and 100% guaranteed choosing the Good is not a contradiction.

If you make people only able to love you then you are creating a Stepford Wife, a robot, not person with a free will.

They're able to choose to hate God, but they never ever will, 100% guaranteed. The fact that they never ever will choose to hate does not imply a lack of free will. If it did imply a lack of free will, then God doesn't have free will (but He does, so it doesn't).

Just saying that they have a free will but can only love is illogical.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying they have free will but will (not "can") only love.

If you say God can do it, then I say God can create another being who can do the same thing.

The "Free Will Defense" rests on the idea that the only way to guarantee a positive outcome in every choice is to remove free will, yet you have a God with free will who always chooses the Good. So if always choosing the Good and having free will is a logical contradiction, then you have to pick one for God too. I do not believe that there is a contradiction (that's all your idea) so I just want to know why God would create people that will cause evil when He didn't need to and could still have beings with free will.

 

[Bradskii]

No, I am saying sinners do not have a free will until rebirth.

The ability to make choices does NOT prove the will is free from coercion, the coercive enslaving power of evil. If our wills were free we would be able to choose a 100% righteous action and save ourselves from the grip of sin but that is not available to us so we need the redemption found in Christ.

Why are our best choices, our most righteous decisions, thoughts and passons counted as filthy rags? The sinfulness of a person permeates every part of his life, even the best parts, contaminating his best so it is filthy, not good. How else could Paul write: Rom 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do. But what I hate, I do.

Yes you chose your egg but that is NOT proof that the moral content of your choice was free to be righteous...the ability to choose and a free will are different things.

You're conflating free with with moral actions. I can't agree with that. Free will is free will if it's a moral, immoral or an amoral decision. You exercise it (if it exists) whether you are choosing what to have for breakfast or whether to kill your neighbour.

Notwithstanding that 'an evil person' (as opposed to a more reasonable 'person who commits an evil act') may well choose to do something righteous at some point. Does she not have free will when she sets fire to the house but does have free will when she saves the child trapped in the flames?

 

[BigV]

3) Morally evil and deceptive.

This is a good point. Consider that God created Hell, which is the worst place that can be imagined. The worst type of punishment imaginable. If you read the Bible, you will find that death was God's go to punishment. You gather sticks on a Saturday, you die. And, as God envisioned it, you would not die from disease. Other humans would have to pelt you with stones until you die. And Christians consider this sort of God - good. Not just good, but the golden standard for good. You have to measure up to that standard to be considered good.

Ironically, if you refuse to pelt people with stones, you sin, you disobey the golden standard for goodness, so you deserve to be tortured in Hell for eternity for your evilness.

 

[BigV]

HE created us to be HIS Bride based upon a loving relationship so our free will to enter this marriage is an absolute necessity to fulfill HIS purpose as no love can be forced and no forced marriage is real. And for our free will decision to accept HIS marriage proposal to be real we had to have the ability to reject that proposal, to reject HIM and so to create sin in HIS creation.

Well, remember that Jesus saves you from Hell! How can you love Jesus if you know that the alternative is torture in Hell for all eternity?

And how does the knowledge of punishment in Hell let you keep your free will? Free will, by definition, is a choice that you are free to make, not coerced to make. If somone is holding a gun to your head and asking you to make a decision, your decision at that moment won't be "free". And Hell is much much worse than a gun to your head.

 

[Neogaia777]

Like I said, if you want to know how it all pans out, and works, and is 100% fair and right and righteous and just, then PM me...

God Bless!

 

[BigV]

Like I said, if you want to know how it all pans out, and works, and is 100% fair and right and righteous and just, then PM me...

God Bless!

Why are you keeping this info a secret? Spill it out please.

 

[Neogaia777]

Why are you keeping this info a secret? Spill it out please.

Some of it I can get into trouble with on here with the mods and the rules, etc, so I'd just prefer to do it privately where I feel like I can speak freely, etc...

In fact, I'm surprised I haven't got into trouble with it or them (again) already, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

 

[BigV]

Some of it I can get into trouble with on here with the mods and the rules, etc, so I'd just prefer to do it privately where I feel like I can speak freely, etc...

In fact, I'm surprised I haven't got into trouble with it or them (again) already, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

Are you being persecuted by fellow Christians? This is a Christian forum!