I agree. There are differences between them of course, with some rejecting the notion of eternal security for one.It’s unfortunate that the majority of churches in America teach eternal security and typically some form of faith alone. The reformers had the right intention I think but they just didn’t arrive at sound doctrines.
If is not conditional but evidential, those really in Christ by election abide in Him.Then why does Jesus say in John 15:7 “IF you abide in Me” instead of saying since you abide in Me? Using the word “IF” makes this statement conditional implying that the outcome is uncertain. Do you think His audience’s faith was questionable?
If is not conditional but evidential, those really in Christ by election abide in Him.
You dont understand the word IF in scripture !No that’s incorrect. In order for that statement to be evidential He would’ve had to say “If the Father grants everything you ask then you abide in Me” that’s an example of an evidential statement. The way He said it is conditional.
You dont understand the word IF in scripture !
Yes that's correct. I believe fallen from grace is to basically apostatize from truth, like when scripture says Luke 8:13
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
They never had root in themselves Matt 13:20-21
They never had root in themselves, nor fruit. I dont believe they were christians, you can believe that if you like, however you would be believing something not there.They were persecuted BECAUSE they were Christians.
JLB
Believers can read The Bible. Most would probably look up a verse posted and work through it from there. Unless they’re illiterate of course"trying to be justified by the law".......has to be explained.
the reason is, most who are doing this, don't see it, can't see it.
so, you have to open the understanding, vs just quoting a verse.
did you ever notice that when Jesus was teaching, he would not always use a verse, but if He used one, he didnt just quote it and leave the room.
why?
because most people can't spiritually discern, and the word of God can't be "rightly divided" unless you have this specific spiritual skill.
this is why God sends in a teacher.
(see my Thread).
They never had root in themselves, nor fruit. I dont believe they were christians, you can believe that if you like, however you would be believing something not there.
The stony ground heater never bear fruit of salvation. Had no root in himself, no spiritual life.But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Matthew 13:20-21
Why were these people persecuted?
Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13
- lest they should believe and be saved.
Jesus plainly stated that the very reason those by the wayside weren’t saved was because, they didn’t believe.
These in the next group did in fact believe, indicated by the the plant springing up above the ground and being exposed to the sun.
No plant can grow and spring up above the ground unless it has roots.
These that were planted among the stoney places had no depth of root, not that they didn’t have any root at all, but a lack of fully developed root system, and thus it is unable to reach the moisture that lies deeper in the earth.
- Some fell on rock; and as soon as it sprang up, it withered away because it lacked moisture. Luke 8:6
Again, no plant can spring up above the ground where it is exposed to the sun, without a root system.
JLB
The stony ground heater never bear fruit of salvation. Had no root in himself, no spiritual life.
False, they werent believers, never were !It’s very common knowledge that a plant can not sprout up and break ground without a root system.
The plant had no “depth of root” is what is being taught by the Lord.
Again, the main understanding is, these were being persecuted BECAUSE they were Christians; followers of Christ.
JLB
False, they werent believers, never were !
You are mistakenYour mistaken.
Jesus said the believed.
They were being persecuted because they believed.
Jesus said the way we are saved is by believing.
- lest they should believe and be saved.
Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13
Believe = Saved
The next group did in fact believe.
- who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Believe = Saved
Believe for a while = Saved for a while
Case Closed.
JLB
Amen and the case is not closed. Not all belief is the same. Even though this shallow ground hearer in Luke 8:13 is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"? I will explain why.You are mistaken
You are mistaken
As we all see, your “theory” is against the doctrine of Christ.
Those who are “in Christ”, and then are removed from Christ, no longer have eternal life they once had when they were “in Him”.
Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:2
Here is how we are instructed to remain “in Christ”.
Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24
- he who keeps His commandments abides in Him,
Hopefully after reading the plain and clear words of Christ, you will turn away from promoting “another doctrine”, one in which Christ did not teach.
- Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
JLB
This someone has never been sved by grace, yesterday or today. I suspectSo........IN the mind of someone who is born again, who has left their original faith and are = fallen from it....
Hi, Brightfame. The story about "the soils", is not about soils at all; it is a story about how a person perseveres, or not. The illustration of a plant growing/withering, is applied after a person perseveres, or falls.Brightfame52 said:They never had root in themselves, nor fruit. I dont believe they were christians, you can believe that if you like, however you would be believing something not there.
I'm afraid not; read the entire letter of James, it is about "don't-fall-from-salvation". The entire letter of 2Peter, the entire letter of Galatians, and worst for OSAS is the entire letter of Hebrews. A truly saved born-again begotten-child-of-God, can become unbegotten.No its not, they will remain, its sure !
Hi, Dan. There are three views of OSAS:Amen and the case is not closed. Not all belief is the same. Even though this shallow ground hearer in Luke 8:13 is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved."
Actually, the illustration of "plants-on-soils" (withering or flourishing), is applied AFTER a person perseveres or fall. Please make a list of verses that say "hold fast and save yourselves" -- like 1Tim4:16. See Rev3:11 -- "hold fast to what you have, so that no one will steal your crown" -- exactly what crown do you think they will steal? What do you think of 1Tim4:1?How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"? I will explain why.
First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.
No, it actually is an admonishment to "take care HOW YOU LISTEN" (Luke8:18). We are admonished to hold fast and persevere to be LIKE seed growing on good soil, don't be like seed growing on shallow/rocky/thorny (or bird-ravaged) soil.IN CONTRAST TO - Mark 4:8 - But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. Luke 8:15 says, But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. So the rocky soil represents a person not properly prepared in heart so the seed planted ends up with a lack of "root" (lack of being firmly planted, or established) and good soil represents a person properly prepared in heart who having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keeps it and bears fruit with patience.
It's all cause and effect. What do you think passages like Col2:8 and Jude20-21 mean? Why would he say, "Keep YOURSELVES in the love of God" (building yourselves in holy faith)?*Unlike saving belief, temporary, shallow belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? Also the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they are not saved.
Ask a Calvinist, "Can you know that you are TRULY ELECTED, like those in Lk8:15 who will persevere, and not just CRUELLY REJECTED, like those who THOUGHT they were saved but never were in Lk8:13?"John has portrayed people who "believe" (at least to some extent) but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted and established belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.
Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. We can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly "believe unto salvation" and become children of God (John 1:12) but were instead children of the devil.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?