How Do you Define Sola Fide (Faith Alone) and is it Biblical?

[Bible Highlighter]

I am not going to take one verse and make it trump all of Scripture. If we can't be tempted, the "go and sin no more" makes no sense. The fact that we STILL need to be perfected, makes no sense if we can always avoid sin. Not rebellion, not willful sin... but unknowing unintended sin. There are way too many examples of that to spend time on, I know you know them all. If you really think that you can walk through life without getting too angry, without doing something that crosses the line of spirit of the law, then you're already perfected and the rest of us missed out.

Anyway... I don't want to cause strife, we don't agree so I will just leave your thread. We don't need to agree.

Blessings.
Ken

Well, you are not offering an explanation for 1 Corinthians 10:13. Besides, it's not the only verse, either.

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14).

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24).

1 "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." (1 Peter 4:1-2).

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16).

"Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).

“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him” (Romans 6:6-8).

“Don't you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living.” (Romans 6:16 NLT).

“there are false prophets... who cannot cease from sin.” (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14).

“Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.” (1 Corinthians 15:34).

“Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen” (Hebrews 13:20-21).

“But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.” (1 John 2:5).

“And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

“For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;” (1 Thessalonians 4:3-4).

“For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.” (1 Thessalonians 4:7).

“And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.” (1 John 5:19).​

I encourage you to please memorize these verses and put them on the inside of your heart.

 

[Ken Rank]

Well, you are not offering an explanation for 1 Corinthians 10:13. Besides, it's not the only verse, either.

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14).

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24).

1 "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." (1 Peter 4:1-2).

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16).

"Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).

“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him” (Romans 6:6-8).

“Don't you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living.” (Romans 6:16 NLT).

“there are false prophets... who cannot cease from sin.” (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14).

“Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.” (1 Corinthians 15:34).

“Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen” (Hebrews 13:20-21).

“But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.” (1 John 2:5).

“And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

“For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;” (1 Thessalonians 4:3-4).

“For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.” (1 Thessalonians 4:7).

“And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.” (1 John 5:19).​

I encourage you to please memorize these verses and put them on the inside of your heart.

We're not going to come to any agreement because of how we define sin. In Hebrew (less so with Greek) there are three different words that we call sin but that all carry a very distinct definition. From unknowing or unintentional, to getting caught up in an emotion and temporarily straying, to rebellion. Most of the verses you raised above are dealing with rebellion which is not sin... it is rebellion, WILLFUL sin. I am not talking about willful, a follower of YHWH should not willfully sin against Him. He might sin in ignorance or sin unintentionally and that is my only point. Even THAT will come to an end when the writing of the law on the heart is complete. It isn't complete yet. Jeremiah and Hebrews are very clear... when it happens there will no longer be a need to teach our brothers because all will know the LORD. Do all know the Lord, Jason? No.... do we still need to teach? Yes.. thus the work is not done.

 

[bcbsr]

That wasn't either of our points, brother. I said God knows we will mess up and you took exception to that. Adam might only have been tested once (we actually don't know that, only the one that he failed is given in Scripture) but God still knew Adam would fail. Just as he knows we will. That is why He will write the law on our hearts because that is what it will take to keep us from having ANY ability to sin. Since He wrote about this back in Ezekiel 11:19, Deut. 30:1-6 (to name two) then He has always known we would fail from time to time and that is why His plan has always included Him placing His words on our hearts for us, permanently.

I agree. That's also supported with 1John 3:9 which actually speaks of our ability to live in sin being taken away due to the nature of regeneration. So under the Old Covenant behavior was manipulated by fear of condemnation. But even that didn't work. Under the New behavior is influenced not by fear of condemnation (1John 4:18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment.) but rather through regeneration. (Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!)

 

[BNR32FAN]

I think the principle of 1John 3:9 takes care of issues of behavior once one has come to faith in Christ. "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

Thus it's a mere strawman argument typically used by justification by law Christians to say that those born of God may continue to sin. It simply doesn't happen. Righteous behavior is an effect, not a cause of salvation. To make salvation contingent upon one's ongoing performance is justification by law and a rejection of the gospel of grace.

I would say in many cases such as faith and works that if the effect is absent then the cause is also absent. I wouldn’t say this is true in all cases like for example perhaps a new believer who doesn’t have the ability or opportunity to do good works. But a believer who persistently refuses to do good works represents an unwillingness to adhere to the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Such a person would be lacking in faith.

 

[bcbsr]

I would say in many cases such as faith and works that if the effect is absent then the cause is also absent. I wouldn’t say this is true in all cases like for example perhaps a new believer who doesn’t have the ability or opportunity to do good works. But a believer who persistently refuses to do good works represents an unwillingness to adhere to the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Such a person would be lacking in faith.

I would agree with that. But as noted from this thread, some like Jason view the effect as the cause of justification, thus confusing cause and effect.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I would agree with that. But as noted from this thread, some like Jason view the effect as the cause of justification, thus confusing cause and effect.

Yes brother Jason and I disagree on the subject of works and salvation. I believe works play no part in our salvation. He believes they do. May God bless us all with understanding of His word.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We're not going to come to any agreement because of how we define sin. In Hebrew (less so with Greek) there are three different words that we call sin but that all carry a very distinct definition. From unknowing or unintentional, to getting caught up in an emotion and temporarily straying, to rebellion. Most of the verses you raised above are dealing with rebellion which is not sin... it is rebellion, WILLFUL sin. I am not talking about willful, a follower of YHWH should not willfully sin against Him. He might sin in ignorance or sin unintentionally and that is my only point. Even THAT will come to an end when the writing of the law on the heart is complete. It isn't complete yet. Jeremiah and Hebrews are very clear... when it happens there will no longer be a need to teach our brothers because all will know the LORD. Do all know the Lord, Jason? No.... do we still need to teach? Yes.. thus the work is not done.

Memorize the verses I put forth to you and meditate on them in what they say. Truly believe every word of them. This will help you to see where I am coming from. Until then, I believe you are ignoring these verses.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes brother Jason and I disagree on the subject of works and salvation. I believe works play no part in our salvation. He believes they do. May God bless us all with understanding of His word.

Well, I used to believe works did not save (based on what the popular churches taught), but after careful examination of the Scriptures, I could no longer in good conscience ignore the many verses in the Bible that talk about how we are also saved by "works of faith," too. For I believe that after we are saved by God's grace, God’s works (done through us by faith) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process.

Here are a List of Verses:

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes brother Jason and I disagree on the subject of works and salvation. I believe works play no part in our salvation. He believes they do. May God bless us all with understanding of His word.

Confusion arises on this topic because of Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5. Paul was fighting against the heresy of "Works Alone Salvationism" (That did not include God's grace through faith). James was fighting against the opposite extreme heresy of Belief Alone-ism (James 2:24) (James 2:17-18).

Paul was fighting against Circumcision Salvationism, which is the heresy of "Law Alone Salvationism" (See: Galatians 2:3, Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 5:6, Galatians 6:5, 1 Corinthians 7:18-19, Romans 2:28-29, Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12, Acts of the Apostles 21:21. In fact, "Circumcision Salvationism" and trying to be saved by going back to the Old Contract, i.e. the the whole of the 613 commands found in the "Law of Moses" (not select individual commands) was a heresy addressed at the Jerusalem council; See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

Paul was against "Works Alone Salvationism" and "Being Justified (Saved) by Keeping the Whole of All of the Law of Moses."

James was against "Easy Believism" with "No Works of Faith" as a part of our obedience to the commands in the New Covenant (New Testament) that come from Jesus Christ and His followers.

Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).
This would be the commands of Jesus and not the Law of Moses.

Note: Hover your cursor over the verses above to check them out.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Well, I used to believe works did not save (based on what the popular churches taught), but after careful examination of the Scriptures, I could no longer in good conscience ignore the many verses in the Bible that talk about how we are also saved by "works of faith," too. For I believe that after we are saved by God's grace, God’s works (done through us by faith) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process.

Here are a List of Verses:

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

I’ve explained James 2:24 brother. The Greek word used for justified also means to be shown to be right with God. James cannot be saying that Abraham was made right with God by his works because that contradicts what Paul said in Romans 4:2-5

“For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:2-5‬ ‭ASV‬‬

By your interpretation James is contradicting Paul. This cannot be true. The only way it makes sense without contradicting other scriptures is by the second definition of justified which means Abraham was shown to be right with God. James just mentioned being shown to be right with God by his works in verse 18.

“Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:18‬ ‭ASV‬‬

Here’s another clue in James 2:14

“What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14‬ ‭ASV‬‬

James is explaining two types of faith. There’s a saving faith that produces works as mentioned in verse 14 and there’s a dead and useless faith that does not produce works which is not a saving faith as mentioned in verses 17 and 20. You see in verse 14 it is the type of faith that saves him. “Can that faith save him?” Not faith plus works but instead faith with works. The faith being the determining factor in which we receive grace provided that it produces works. Now back to verses 17 and 20.

“Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:17‬ ‭ASV‬‬

“But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is barren?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:20‬ ‭ASV‬‬

Again faith is the determining factor for receiving grace.

Notice James gives examples in verses 15 & 16 of a person who has the opportunity to do good works but doesn’t. I submit that this only applies if the person has the ability and opportunity to do good works. Take for example the thief on the cross. He was unable to do good works yet he was still saved. Jesus was able to see his faith was genuine and I would be willing to bet that if the thief had been given the opportunity he would’ve done good works. Otherwise I don’t think he would’ve been saved according to James 2:14 and John 15:1-8 as well as a few other verses of scripture. I agree with you brother that works are necessary for salvation because they are necessary to having a genuine faith provided that the individual has the ability and opportunity to do works. I also believe it is possible that some can be saved on their death bed. I don’t recommend anyone wait that long because I’m not 100% convinced they will be saved but I do believe it is a possibility. What are your thoughts?

 

[Gr8Grace]

It is amazing to watch people disagree..............when they actually don't.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Confusion arises on this topic because of Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5. Paul was fighting against the heresy of "Works Alone Salvationism" (That did not include God's grace through faith). James was fighting against the opposite extreme heresy of Belief Alone-ism (James 2:24) (James 2:17-18).

Paul was fighting against Circumcision Salvationism, which is the heresy of "Law Alone Salvationism" (See: Galatians 2:3, Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 5:6, Galatians 6:5, 1 Corinthians 7:18-19, Romans 2:28-29, Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12, Acts of the Apostles 21:21. In fact, "Circumcision Salvationism" and trying to be saved by going back to the Old Contract, i.e. the the whole of the 613 commands found in the "Law of Moses" (not select individual commands) was a heresy addressed at the Jerusalem council; See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

Paul was against "Works Alone Salvationism" and "Being Justified (Saved) by Keeping the Whole of All of the Law of Moses."

James was against "Easy Believism" with "No Works of Faith" as a part of our obedience to the commands in the New Covenant (New Testament) that come from Jesus Christ and His followers.

Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).
This would be the commands of Jesus and not the Law of Moses.

Note: Hover your cursor over the verses above to check them out.

Romans 4:2-5 Paul is clearly defining that Abraham was justified by faith not works. Not faith and works. Abraham was made right with God before he was circumcised. Not when he had faith then was circumcised. He was made right before he done work.

“But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:6‬ ‭ASV‬‬

What Paul is saying here in Romans 11 is grace is no longer a free gift if it is paid for by works. The definition of grace is a free and unmerited favor of God. If it is attained by works then it is no longer free and unmerited hence grace is no longer grace. Even if accompanied by faith if works play a role in receiving grace then it is not free. It is faith plus payment. Brother faith will produce the works. It is by faith that we receive grace. If works are absent then faith is also absent and grace will not be received.

“for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, that no man should glory.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8-9‬ ‭ASV‬‬

Your very close brother. However I do commend you on your boldness to proclaim something that is quite a controversial point of view. I just think you need a little more contemplation and guidance to put it together correctly. Your so close!!

 

[Gr8Grace]

I would agree with that. But as noted from this thread, some like Jason view the effect as the cause of justification, thus confusing cause and effect.

Which is exactly what you teach..........you just put it at the end of ones life.

If there is no effect in your eyes, then the cause was not for real.

Making the effect first and foremost.

Tell us how this is different.............If there is not effect(visual verification) you will lose salvation. If there is no effect(visual verification) you were not really saved.

They are the EXACT same thing..............WORKS is the CAUSE of salvation. No way around it.

If we spend our lives grieving or quenching(no visual verification) the Spirit after salvation, we will be LEAST in the kingdom......But IN the kingdom. Because works has NOTHING to do with getting saved.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Your very close brother. However I do commend you on your boldness to proclaim something that is quite a controversial point of view. I just think you need a little more contemplation and guidance to put it together correctly. Your so close!!

Naw. He is saying the exact same thing as you. Just read it a little closer. You guys are on the EXACT same page..........it's just worded a bit different.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Naw. He is saying the exact same thing as you. Just read it a little closer. You guys are on the EXACT same page..........it's just worded a bit different.

As expected a typical reply from you. I’m not surprised. How’ve you been? Blessed I hope brother.

 

[bcbsr]

Which is exactly what you teach..........you just put it at the end of ones life.

If there is no effect in your eyes, then the cause was not for real.

Making the effect first and foremost.

Tell us how this is different.............If there is not effect(visual verification) you will lose salvation. If there is no effect(visual verification) you were not really saved.

They are the EXACT same thing..............WORKS is the CAUSE of salvation. No way around it.

If we spend our lives grieving or quenching(no visual verification) the Spirit after salvation, we will be LEAST in the kingdom......But IN the kingdom. Because works has NOTHING to do with getting saved.

No, they are logically different.

To say that characteristic righteous behavior is an effect of salvation by faith apart from works is completely different than saying that righteous behavior is the cause of a person's salvation.

You're saying effect = cause, which is of itself a logical fallacy.

Yes works have nothing to do with GETTING SAVED. But once a person has gotten saved they will characteristically live a righteous lifestyle.

And again another logical fallacy you make is saying that
losing salvation = saying that a person was never saved to begin with
Obviously these are not equal since you can't lose something you never had to begin with.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I believe Sola Fide (Faith Alone, or Justification by Faith Alone without works) only is accurate to say when we first come to the Faith. It is also accurate in the sense that is the foundation upon which we build, as well (For if a believer stumbles into a sin, they have God's grace not as a license to sin, but as a means to overcome it by confessing their sins to Jesus Christ). God's grace though faith is the foundation of our faith. From my reading on Sola Fide (Faith Alone), it is suggesting that one is saved by Faith without any works but that Faith is followed by a changed new nature being unity with Christ and issues forth love (Which would then bring forth works).

Sola fide - Wikipedia

The equation for Sola Fide (or Faith Alone) for a believer's whole life is:
Faith = Salvation = Works.

The opposing view is Faith + Works = Salvation. But Sola Fide is suggesting that one can still be saved if they are not exactly always fruitful or if a believer stumbles into a grievous sin. For the basis for salvation is a belief alone in Jesus. So while Sola Fide not at an exclusion of works altogether in some cases, it can appear to be that way in other cases. For the merit is not based on works for salvation. So this suggests to a person that they can sin and still be saved on some level and not being doing good works at certain times and still be saved. For one is not saved on the basis of their own merits or work. But the Bible does talk about how grievous sin can separate a believer and GOD and it talks about how the unprofitable servant can be cast into outer darkness. We are told to "Continue in the Faith" (Colossians 1:23), "Continue in Love" (Hebrews 13:1), "Continue in the Grace of God" (Acts of the Apostles 13:43) as a part of our walk with God. So this is not some kind of automatic thing where God forces unity of love upon us. This is why we need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).

One of the problems in the “sola” or “alone” quotes is that it is not alone for we are saved by grace and we also read we are saved by grace through faith.

And so when we say “Alone” it is not accurate and should not be used. This is similar with the “sola scripture” also for the primary rule is the Spirit of God working in believers at the new creation in Christ and as we walk in that life ten the scriptures will be profitable to us and understood.

I understand to say we are saved by grace through faith without the works of the law. But when some say we are saved by faith “alone” this is not accurate.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Which is exactly what you teach..........you just put it at the end of ones life.

If there is no effect in your eyes, then the cause was not for real.

Making the effect first and foremost.

Tell us how this is different.............If there is not effect(visual verification) you will lose salvation. If there is no effect(visual verification) you were not really saved.

They are the EXACT same thing..............WORKS is the CAUSE of salvation. No way around it.

If we spend our lives grieving or quenching(no visual verification) the Spirit after salvation, we will be LEAST in the kingdom......But IN the kingdom. Because works has NOTHING to do with getting saved.

You teach that faith doesn’t produce works. That’s unbiblical. It’s called not abiding which results in being cut off from Christ and thrown away to wither then being thrown into the fire to be burned. The same kind of faith the goats had. We all know how they ended up.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Romans 4:2-5 Paul is clearly defining that Abraham was justified by faith not works. Not faith and works. Abraham was made right with God before he was circumcised. Not when he had faith then was circumcised. He was made right before he done work.

Paul is fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism."
Romans 3:1 says what profit is there in circumcision?
This is because circumcision is a part of the OT;
And circumcision was never done before having faith in God (even when the OT was in effect before Christ's death).

Abraham had to FIRST believe by faith without works to be INITIALLY SAVED. His belief (or faith) was apart (separate) from the work of circumcision. But.... if Abraham did not later follow the command to be circumcised (Which is a work of faith) he would have been cut off from his people and he would have broken God's covenant. How so?

Genesis 17:14 says,
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant."

Granted, we are not under the Old Covenant Law (including circumcision) anymore, but we are under the commands that come from Jesus Christ and His followers in the New Covenant (or New Testament).

Anyways, Justification is the first step or phase in the salvation process. A person has to accept Christ as their Savior (without works) when they first come to the faith.

“But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:6‬ ‭ASV‬‬

Context. Romans 9, Romans 10, Romans 11 deals clearly with the Jews. So Paul was talking to the Jews who were stuck in a false view of salvation that was all works, no grace, and no true faith. They were trying to be saved by Law Alone without a Savior.

What Paul is saying here in Romans 11 is grace is no longer a free gift if it is paid for by works.

Works alone. The Jews believed in works alone. Paul was saying to the Roman church that if they think like the Jews and make salvation all about "Works Alone" (without God's grace) by trying to be circumcised FIRST to be saved instead of by faith in the Savior first to be saved, then grace is no more grace. Jesus would no longer be the foundation of a person's grace and salvation if they thought they had to FIRST be circumcised to be saved.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 says you need to have both a belief and Sanctification of the Spirit as a part of salvation.

The definition of grace is a free and unmerited favor of God. If it is attained by works then it is no longer free and unmerited hence grace is no longer grace. Even if accompanied by faith if works play a role in receiving grace then it is not free. It is faith plus payment. Brother faith will produce the works. It is by faith that we receive grace. If works are absent then faith is also absent and grace will not be received.

I understand that makes sense to you, but it technically is turning God's grace into a license for immorality if we teach a gospel that can potentially lead others to think they can sin and still be saved on some level. For the moment you say we are not saved by works, is the moment we minimize sin and or make light of it because we are covered by His grace. For do you believe King David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder?

“for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, that no man should glory.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8-9‬ ‭ASV‬‬

This is talking about "Initial Salvation." Ephesians 2:1 talks about how Christ quickened us (Which is a one time event). Ephesians 3:17 says that Christ may dwell in our hearts by faith.

Your very close brother. However I do commend you on your boldness to proclaim something that is quite a controversial point of view. I just think you need a little more contemplation and guidance to put it together correctly. Your so close!!

Sorry, I am not close to what you believe. Nor will I ever be close to what you believe because I see the Eternal Security belief or Belief Alone type belief as being immoral. I have argued strongly against these kinds of beliefs for many years and the more I study the New Testament over and over and over again, the more I see that refutes these erroneous type beliefs. They are wrong because they seek to turn God's grace into a license for immorality on some level (Whether you want that to happen or not).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

One of the problems in the “sola” or “alone” quotes is that it is not alone for we are saved by grace and we also read we are saved by grace through faith.

And so when we say “Alone” it is not accurate and should not be used. This is similar with the “sola scripture” also for the primary rule is the Spirit of God working in believers at the new creation in Christ and as we walk in that life ten the scriptures will be profitable to us and understood.

I understand to say we are saved by grace through faith without the works of the law. But when some say we are saved by faith “alone” this is not accurate.

Sola Scriptura is one of the exceptions because it is not stated by it's own adherents that it is at the absence of the working of God. Even if they said Scripture alone, we have to understand that it is IMPOSSIBLE for Scripture to be alone. God ever working and active with His Word so that it does not return void. Where there is the Bible.... there is GOD. A person cannot get around that one. So when we say Scripture... God is implied in that because a person cannot separate God from Scripture.

As for Faith Alone and Grace Alone: Yeah, those are a can of worms because they are teaching a form of Soteriology that is not correct. It is saying that Works of Faith (the working of Christ in us) do not play a part in the salvation process after we are saved by God's grace.