How Do you Define Sola Fide (Faith Alone) and is it Biblical?

[Bible Highlighter]

I think the principle of 1John 3:9 takes care of issues of behavior once one has come to faith in Christ. "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

Thus it's a mere strawman argument typically used by justification by law Christians to say that those born of God may continue to sin. It simply doesn't happen. Righteous behavior is an effect, not a cause of salvation. To make salvation contingent upon one's ongoing performance is justification by law and a rejection of the gospel of grace.

Scripture has to be read as a whole. While we are saved by God's grace through faith initially and ultimately, one also needs works of faith as a part of the salvation process. James 2:24 says we are justified by works and not by faith alone. These would be works of faith (as a part of following the commands of Jesus and His followers) and not works of the Law of Moses. The problem you are faced with is that you have to ignore so many verses in the Bible to make this kind of view of salvation work. In Luke 10:25-28, the lawyer asks Jesus what must he do to inherit eternal life. Jesus says how does he read the Scriptures concerning this. The lawyer answered, love God (with some added details) and love your neighbor. Now, Jesus said that He answered correctly and that he was to do this and he will live. If an Eternal Security proponent were to answer this lawyer: They would say, "Wrong lawyer!" "It is only by believing in Jesus as your Savior and not in loving God or your neighbor so as to live."

So the answer that the Eternal Security Proponent would give is not the same one as Jesus gives us.

As for 1 John 3:9:

Explaining 1 John 3:6 and 1 John 3:9:

Modern Translations will say practice sin or continue in sin in 1 John 3:9 (as if to say it is talking exclusively of practicing sin), but this is not the case in the trusted KJV (that existed hundreds of years long before the Modern Translations showed up). (Note: I am not denying that it can be in reference to habitual sin, but it is not exclusively referring to habitual sin but also singular or temporary sin, too.).

The key to understanding 1 John 3:9 is realizing that this "does not commit sin" is in context to the gnostic belief who think sin does not exist or that sin is an illusion in some way (See 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 2:26). Christian Scientists today think sin is an illusion. OSAS proponents think future sin is forgiven them. So while they believe sin may exist on a physical level, they do not think sin exists for them on a spiritual level because they believe Jesus paid for their future sins (When the Bible never says future sin is forgiven us). In other words, it is those who justify sin in some way who have not been born again spiritually and who have never seen or known Christ and He (the seed) does not abide in them. 1 John 3:6 and 1 John 3:9 is talking about "willful sin" in Hebrews 10:26 in view or light of 1 John 1:8.

In other words, 1 John 3:6, and 1 John 3:9 is in view of "willful sin" or "justifying sin" in some way.

1 John 3:9 should read like this:

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin [willfully, as if to justify it]; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin [willfully], because he is born of God."​

1 John 3:6 should read like this:

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not [willfully, seeking to justify their sin]: whosoever sinneth [as if to justify their sin] hath not seen him, neither known him."​

This would be in view or light of applying the context of the false gnostic belief that John warned the brethren about in 1 John 1:8.

Most Eternal Security Proponents I have talked with will say that King David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder. This is justifying sin under God's grace.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't believe I've ever seen you grapple with the true doctrine of Sola Fide. This time is no exception.

Yes, we need God's grace without works when we first come to the faith. We cannot be saved by works alone without God's grace. This is what I believe Paul was fighting against in Ephesians 2:8-9. Without and acceptance of God's grace through (apart from the Law), nobody can be saved. This is the entrance to salvation and the foundation we build upon. If a believer stumbles into a sin, they confess it to Jesus to be forgiven or to wash away that sin (God's grace), and they do not go out and do a work to offset or forgive that sin. Works of faith (i.e. the working of God in a believer by faith in His Word) is the next step or stage in the salvation process. It is the Sanctification of the Spirit.

 

[bcbsr]

Scripture has to be read as a whole. While we are saved by God's grace through faith initially and ultimately, one also needs works fo faith as a part of the salvation process. .

What I'm talking about when I say "salvation" is essentially being saved from hell, from God's wrath. Technically I'm talking about justification. I realize that when some say "salvation" they may be including sanctification and glorification, which is the completeness of salvation. But if justification is finalized upon coming to faith in Christ, these others are inevitable and therefore I'm not referring to those.

So to be clear, when we're talking about salvation from God's wrath in hell fire, what are the requirements as you see it? Are you saying initially you're saved from hell by faith alone, but after that your salvation from hell fire is based upon your performance, and therefore salvation by works?

Explaining 1 John 3:6 and 1 John 3:9:
Modern Translations will say practice sin or continue in sin in 1 John 3:9 (as if to say it is talking exclusively of practicing sin), but this is not the case in the trusted KJV (that existed hundreds of years long before the Modern Translations showed up).

The Greek manuscripts pre-dated the KJV by a lot.
1John 3:9 is referring to the person's characteristic behavior, that which is typical of their lifestyle. Sinning, though it occurs, is not typical of those born of God. John's explanation for this truism is because of the nature of regeneration. And we read from 1John 3:10 that such behavior is so measurable, so typically, that one can distinguish children of God from children of the devil by it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Good Day,

Being justified by Faith ... therefore there is no condemnation (innocent) for those who are in Christ Jesus.

In Him,

Bill

In the KJV it says, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:1).

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).

 

[Ken Rank]

What it comes down to is does Sola Fide cover a person's present disobedience without confession and or future disobedience? I would say that in some level that Sola Fide is teaching that (even if it is not explicitly stated). Granted, it states that there will be works of love because of unity to Christ, etc.; But it is not teaching that these works of love are essential for salvation.

And that answer for me is also yes. Until the law is completed on our minds and hearts, we will... on occasion, mess up. God knows this, that's why He is going to write His instructions on our heart. Knowing this, He still expects us to hear and obey, hear and stand firm, hear and act... hear and react to whatever it is we heard from Him... as best we can.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What I'm talking about when I say "salvation" is essentially being saved from hell, from God's wrath. Technically I'm talking about justification. I realize that when some say "salvation" they may be including sanctification and glorification, which is the completeness of salvation. But if justification is finalized upon coming to faith in Christ, these others are inevitable and therefore I'm not referring to those.

So to be clear, when we're talking about salvation from God's wrath in hell fire, what are the requirements as you see it? Are you saying initially you're saved from hell by faith alone, but after that your salvation from hell fire is based upon your performance, and therefore salvation by works?

Yes, you need both a belief (faith) in the Savior and works of faith for salvation (i.e. to be saved from hell and or condemnation).

"Works of faith" is mentioned several times in the Bible.
James says, "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." (James 2:18).

James then says that we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

This would be "works of faith" that follows faith in the Savior.
We are told to continue in the faith, continue in his love, continue in his grace. So grace, love, faith are not forever forced upon us after we accept them one time in our life.

Again, you are not addressing the problem of Luke 10:25-28.

Very clearly here Jesus admits to the truth of the lawyer's statement according to Scripture that a person needs to love God (with some added details) and to love your neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life. Jesus said he answered correctly and he was to do this and he will live. Yet, you are saying this is not the case. Hence, you are speaking against the very teachings of Jesus Christ Himself.

The Greek manuscripts pre-dated the KJV by a lot.

And you did not grow up speaking and writing the original languages in that culture or day to truly know what they say without a shadow of a doubt. You cannot claim that men who have defined these languages later on in history are absolutely 100% correct. Paul is not giving us a Lexicon for the English language. Paul says he uses great plainness of speech. Yet, you are suggesting otherwise by claiming that we cannot understand God's Word by using great plainness of speech always.

1John 3:9 is referring to the person's characteristic behavior, that which is typical of their lifestyle. Sinning, though it occurs, is not typical of those born of God. John's explanation for this truism is because of the nature of regeneration. And we read from 1John 3:10 that such behavior is so measurable, so typically, that one can distinguish children of God from children of the devil by it.

No, although it can mean that, it does not exclusively mean that. 1 John 3:9 is talking about justifying sin willfully by a person thinking they can sin and still be saved. Eternal Security proponents say that King David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder. So they are justifying sin. This is what 1 John 1:8 is condemning. It says the solution is to repent or seek forgiveness of the Lord Jesus over a sin (1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1). For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins.

For how many times does a person have to sin before they are considered in living a lifestyle of sin? Do you believe a Christian has to generally live holy? If so, is that not a salvation issue? Do you believe the prodigal son was saved while he was living in a prodigal sinful lifestyle?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And that answer for me is also yes. Until the law is completed on our minds and hearts, we will... on occasion, mess up. God knows this, that's why He is going to write His instructions on our heart. Knowing this, He still expects us to hear and obey, hear and stand firm, hear and act... hear and react to whatever it is we heard from Him... as best we can.

I don't agree that God expects us to mess up. While it is possible that we can mess up and find grace, God is not expecting us to fail.

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Corinthians 10:13).

 

[redleghunter]

For the basis for salvation is a belief alone in Jesus.

The basis is actually in the Finished Work of Christ.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The basis is actually in the Finished Work of Christ.

No. 1 John 1:7 essentially says that we need to walk in the light as He is in the light in order for the blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse us from all sin. Hebrews 5:9 essentially says that Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him. So the Bible disagrees with you, my friend. It's both a belief (faith) in the Savior and works of faith (the working of God in us) that saves.

 

[Ken Rank]

I don't agree that God expects us to mess up. While it is possible that we can mess up and find grace, God is not expecting us to fail.

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Corinthians 10:13).

Look at it this way... if God didn't expect Adam to mess up... why was there a lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8)? Why would that which points to the feasts (Gen. 1:14, the word for seasons is moedim) which depict messiah's work, be explicitly mentioned before Adam was even created, let alone sinned? As for us... He knows we will fail from time to time... He has to perfect us which means we are not perfect. Until the writing of the law on the mind and heart is complete, we can and will mess up from time to time. A little too angry... perhaps too long a look at a young lady... a minor bout' of road rage.... we all fall prey to something from time to time and God knows that, that is the exact reason the law will be in us, because then it is part of us, and when His word is part of us, there is no room inside us for sin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Look at it this way... if God didn't expect Adam to mess up... why was there a lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8)? Why would that which points to the feasts (Gen. 1:14, the word for seasons is moedim) which depict messiah's work, be explicitly mentioned before Adam was even created, let alone sinned? As for us... He knows we will fail from time to time... He has to perfect us which means we are not perfect. Until the writing of the law on the mind and heart is complete, we can and will mess up from time to time. A little too angry... perhaps too long a look at a young lady... a minor bout' of road rage.... we all fall prey to something from time to time and God knows that, that is the exact reason the law will be in us, because then it is part of us, and when His word is part of us, there is no room inside us for sin.

Adam only had one test. We are constantly being tested and we are under a new and better Covenant. 1 Corinthians 10:13 says God provides a way of escape. You either believe that or you don't believe it. I choose to believe it.

 

[redleghunter]

No. 1 John 1:7 essentially says that we need to walk in the light as He is in the light in order for the blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse us from all sin. Hebrews 5:9 essentially says that Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him. So the Bible disagrees with you, my friend. It's both a belief (faith) in the Savior and works of faith (the working of God in us) that saves.

I was responding to your comment on the basis of salvation. That it is God’s plan from before the foundations of the earth.

Now if your statement meant how we “access this” free gift of salvation, then it is by the Grace of God through faith in the Finished Work of Jesus Christ.

And this Grace is God calling us to this faith in which we are presented with our damned and destitute state leading us to call upon of the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ in godly sorrow leading to repentance, thus being added to Him and His Church.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I was responding to your comment on the basis of salvation. That it is God’s plan from before the foundations of the earth.

Now if your statement meant how we “access this” free gift of salvation, then it is by the Grace of God through faith in the Finished Work of Jesus Christ.

And this Grace is God calling us to this faith in which we are presented with our damned and destitute state leading us to call upon of the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ in godly sorrow leading to repentance, thus being added to Him and His Church.

I asked if Faith Alone was biblical. On some level it is to an extent because we first receive Christ by faith alone without work, but it is not true in the exhaustive sense or in a faith that continues to walk with God. One also needs to enter the Sanctification process as a part of salvation (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

 

[redleghunter]

I asked if Faith Alone was biblical. On some level it is to an extent because we first receive Christ by faith alone without work, but it is not true in the exhaustive sense or in a faith the continues to walk with God. One also needs to enter the Sanctification process as a part of salvation (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Yes Justification by faith alone is Biblical.

Romans chapters 1-5 is quite clear on this. Why? Because Paul clearly lays out we are justified by faith and mentioning nothing else is involved in this justification.

Then in Ephesians 2, to a Gentile audience Paul tells them they are saved by Grace through faith and not works. Then immediately mentioned we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.

We must be His workmanship first. Just as Paul painfully explains in the entire book of Romans and in most of Ephesians.

Now your previous point was we must walk in the Light for the Blood of Christ as efficacious. I agree but probably not according your gospel of obedience first.

We walk in the Light when we are converted by God’s Grace in which convicted by the Holy Spirit as damned and destitute sinners we call upon the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ in godly sorrow which leads to repentance. And having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

 

[fhansen]

I believe Sola Fide (Faith Alone, or Justification by Faith Alone without works) only is accurate to say when we first come to the Faith. It is also accurate in the sense that is the foundation upon which we build, as well (For if a believer stumbles into a sin, they have God's grace not as a license to sin, but as a means to overcome it by confessing their sins to Jesus Christ). God's grace though faith is the foundation of our faith. From my reading on Sola Fide (Faith Alone), it is suggesting that one is saved by Faith without any works but that Faith is followed by a changed new nature being unity with Christ and issues forth love (Which would then bring forth works).

Sola fide - Wikipedia

The equation for Sola Fide (or Faith Alone) for a believer's whole life is:
Faith = Salvation = Works.

The opposing view is Faith + Works = Salvation. But Sola Fide is suggesting that one can still be saved if they are not exactly always fruitful or if a believer stumbles into a grievous sin. For the basis for salvation is a belief alone in Jesus. So while Sola Fide not at an exclusion of works altogether in some cases, it can appear to be that way in other cases. For the merit is not based on works for salvation. So this suggests to a person that they can sin and still be saved on some level and not being doing good works at certain times and still be saved. For one is not saved on the basis of their own merits or work. But the Bible does talk about how grievous sin can separate a believer and GOD and it talks about how the unprofitable servant can be cast into outer darkness. We are told to "Continue in the Faith" (Colossians 1:23), "Continue in Love" (Hebrews 13:1), "Continue in the Grace of God" (Acts of the Apostles 13:43) as a part of our walk with God. So this is not some kind of automatic thing where God forces unity of love upon us. This is why we need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).

Yes, you've outlined some of the problems- and confusion that easily results-from the doctrine of Sola Fide. In any case we simply are not saved by faith alone. We're saved by receiving justice, by being justified, or made just by God, in response to faith which itself is our response to grace, and then continuing to walk in and even grow in that justice or righteousness.

And the most concise way of defining righteousness or justice or holiness for man is via the term "love", the very nature of God whose image we're to be transformed into. And this is why the Greatest Commandments are what they are, and why Paul would tell us in 1 Cor 13 that love is more important than either faith or hope, that he's nothing without it.

Either way salvation is a whole process, that is worked out after first being justified, depending on the time, grace, and opportunities given afterwards. The church has summarized it this way in the past, quoting a 16th century believer:
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

That simple quote pulls together the whole gospel -and reconciles the teachings of Jesus, Paul, and James if there might appear to be any conflict between them. Faith is the beginning, not the end, of our interaction with God that establishes communion with the Him which is necessary for salvation.
"Apart from me you can do nothing." John 5:15

It would be more accurate to say that man is justified by love alone, a love wrought in us by God as He places His law in our minds and writes it on our hearts. As Augustine said, "Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing."

 

[bcbsr]

Yes, you need both a belief (faith) in the Savior and works of faith for salvation (i.e. to be saved from hell and or condemnation).

We have a fundamental disagreement on this essential matter. But to answer your Luke 10 issue, Jesus was in fact talking about justification by the law, just as Paul does in Romans 2:7 to tutor the person to abandon such in favor of justification by faith apart from works. Notice Jesus says, ""What is written in the Law?" He's referring to justification by law. Rom 10:5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." Justiification by law is about attaining justification by one's compliance to commands. In contrast Paul goes on in Romans 10:
6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’" (that is, to bring Christ down)
7 "or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming:
9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile— the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,
13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Likewise in Romans 2:7 he's talking about justification by law. But notice the transition in Rom 3:20
Rom 3:
20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

So while "the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we ar "e no longer under a tutor." Gal 3:24,25 and "through the law we become conscious of sin" Rom 3:20 So while the law has a purpose and was utilized by Jesus and Paul, the purpose wasn't to save.

Know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. Gal 2:16

While works are an expression of a person's faith, to make them a condition for justification is salvation by works, contrary to the gospel as Paul says, "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:4,5

Do you believe a Christian has to generally live holy?

It's not a matter of "have to". He simply does, if he's been born of God. Because "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

If so, is that not a salvation issue?

Nope. Those born of God live free from the law of sin and death. They live as saved, eternally secure individuals.

Do you believe the prodigal son was saved while he was living in a prodigal sinful lifestyle?

Nope. The prodigal son treated his father as if dead (taking his inheritance), and his father admitted the his son was dead. Since "he who has the Son has life", that means he hadn't been saved at that point.
Eph 2
1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath

 

[Ken Rank]

Adam only had one test. We are constantly being tested and we are under a new and better Covenant. 1 Corinthians 10:13 says God provides a way of escape. You either believe that or you don't believe it. I choose to believe it.

That wasn't either of our points, brother. I said God knows we will mess up and you took exception to that. Adam might only have been tested once (we actually don't know that, only the one that he failed is given in Scripture) but God still knew Adam would fail. Just as he knows we will. That is why He will write the law on our hearts because that is what it will take to keep us from having ANY ability to sin. Since He wrote about this back in Ezekiel 11:19, Deut. 30:1-6 (to name two) then He has always known we would fail from time to time and that is why His plan has always included Him placing His words on our hearts for us, permanently.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That wasn't either of our points, brother. I said God knows we will mess up and you took exception to that. Adam might only have been tested once (we actually don't know that, only the one that he failed is given in Scripture) but God still knew Adam would fail. Just as he knows we will. That is why He will write the law on our hearts because that is what it will take to keep us from having ANY ability to sin. Since He wrote about this back in Ezekiel 11:19, Deut. 30:1-6 (to name two) then He has always known we would fail from time to time and that is why His plan has always included Him placing His words on our hearts for us, permanently.

Please tell me 1 Corinthians 10:13 says.

 

[Ken Rank]

Please tell me 1 Corinthians 10:13 says.

I am not going to take one verse and make it trump all of Scripture. If we can't be tempted, the "go and sin no more" makes no sense. The fact that we STILL need to be perfected, makes no sense if we can always avoid sin. Not rebellion, not willful sin... but unknowing unintended sin. There are way too many examples of that to spend time on, I know you know them all. If you really think that you can walk through life without getting too angry, without doing something that crosses the line of spirit of the law, then you're already perfected and the rest of us missed out.

Anyway... I don't want to cause strife, we don't agree so I will just leave your thread. We don't need to agree.

Blessings.
Ken

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We have a fundamental disagreement on this essential matter. But to answer your Luke 10 issue,

No. Jesus was teaching New Covenant and not Old Covenant. Jesus was making changes to the Old Law (For Jesus said to make no vows, and to turn the other cheek instead of an eye for an eye, etc.). Paul did not say that Christ's teachings have changed. On the contrary, Paul said that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Besides, there was no such thing as justification by "Law Alone" (without faith and without God's grace) in the Old Covenant. That is false.
Obedience to the Law was after one had faith in God.
Jesus told the Pharisees that they ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, FAITH, justice, and mercy (Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42).

Paul points to Abraham as an example of faith in Romans 4.
Abraham believed God first before he was circumcised and that belief by Abraham was accounted to him for righteousness. But Abraham also had to be circumcised in order to continue in salvation, otherwise he would have been cut off from God's covenant (See Genesis 17:14).

Hebrews 11 is the famous faith chapter of the OT saints.
Salvation was always by faith.

Obedience to God's laws were merely the works of faith.
But the Pharisees turned God's grace into a system of distorted works alone salvationism. They did not even obey all of God's laws let alone have proper faith in God like they were supposed to.
If a person truly loves God and their neighbor, they will keep Christ's commandments. Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). Not the OT commandments. His commandments. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 16:22 that if any man loves not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. Paul says in Romans 8:13 says, "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

Jesus was in fact talking about justification by the law, just as Paul does in Romans 2:7 to tutor the person to abandon such in favor of justification by faith apart from works.

Okay. Romans 2:7 is not saying what you are claiming.

In context it says:

5 "...God;
6 ...will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:6-11).

God is talking about wrath and judgment if you do evil and those who do not obey the truth. God is not a respecter of persons (vs. 11). He will render every man according to his deeds. (vs. 6).

A person will perish if they sin regardless of whether or not they are not under the Old Law or not.

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;" (Romans 2:12).

Paul's whole argument is not Law in general like the commands that come from Jesus and His followers, but it is the Old Law.

For if we were not under the Law salvation wise, then we would not be under the commandment that says:

"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ,..." (1 John 3:23).

Surely you believe you are justified by keeping this law or commandment. So you are justified or saved by law keeping. It is just New Covenant Law and not Old Covenant Law. It is the Law of faith. But the Bible talks about how we have "works of faith." In the New Covenant, this is not the same as the "works of the Law of Moses."

Notice Jesus says, ""What is written in the Law?" He's referring to justification by law. Rom 10:5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." Justiification by law is about attaining justification by one's compliance to commands. In contrast Paul goes on in Romans 10:
6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’" (that is, to bring Christ down)
7 "or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming:
9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile— the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,
13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

The context is talking to Jews. They did not accept the Savior, so this is why Paul was saying for them to accept Jesus apart from the Old Law that they were following.

Likewise in Romans 2:7 he's talking about justification by law. But notice the transition in Rom 3:20
Rom 3:
20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

In Romans 3, Paul is trying to refute "Circumcision Salvationism." For he asks, "what profit is there in circumcision?" Note: This was a heresy at the time (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). So Paul was talking about the Old Contract or the whole (not individual commands) of the 613 laws of the "Law of Moses" when he was talking about the "law" here. He was also saying that we cannot be saved by Law Alone without God's grace. A person first needs to accept Jesus as their Savior (Jew or Greek) and then build upon Jesus as their foundation. You probably no doubt erroneously believe that Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 is in reference to the present walk of a believer's life with God. That they will always sin in some way because nobody can stop sinning in this life. Oh, they will generally live holy (whatever that means), but they cannot overcome sin. But if this is the case, then you must believe that Romans 3:11 applies to present walk of a believer's life, too (Which is the context). It says that they are without understanding and they do not seek after God. Do you believe this describes the Christian?

So while "the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we ar "e no longer under a tutor." Gal 3:24,25 and "through the law we become conscious of sin" Rom 3:20 So while the law has a purpose and was utilized by Jesus and Paul, the purpose wasn't to save.

This does not mean "Law Alone" (without God's grace and without faith) was the way of salvation back in the Old Covenant. The Law was a school master or teacher to bring the Jews who ignored faith so that they could realize their error (by their false system of Law keeping alone) so as to come to Christ. Faith existed during the time of the Old Testament. When Paul says, "But before faith came" he is referring to the faith in Jesus Christ and or the faith of the New Covenant. Paul's point here is not Sanctification (Which happens after Justification) but his point here is Justification (i.e. Accepting Jesus as one's Savior by faith in order to be initially saved and to then build upon that foundation). His opponents were trying to be saved by saying they had to be circumcised first in order to be saved (See: Galatians 2:3, Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 5:6, Galatians 6:5; Also see: 1 Corinthians 7:18-19, Romans 2:28-29, Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12, Acts of the Apostles 21:21). The Law was a teacher to those Jews ignored God's plan of salvation through faith even in the Old Testament. Remember, Jesus said the Pharisees ignored the weightier matters of the Law like faith (See Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42).