How Do you Define Sola Fide (Faith Alone) and is it Biblical?

Bible Highlighter · Dec 11, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
Romans 4:2-5 Paul is clearly defining that Abraham was justified by faith not works. Not faith and works. Abraham was made right with God before he was circumcised. Not when he had faith then was circumcised. He was made right before he done work.

“But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:6‬ ‭ASV‬‬

What Paul is saying here in Romans 11 is grace is no longer a free gift if it is paid for by works. The definition of grace is a free and unmerited favor of God. If it is attained by works then it is no longer free and unmerited hence grace is no longer grace. Even if accompanied by faith if works play a role in receiving grace then it is not free. It is faith plus payment. Brother faith will produce the works. It is by faith that we receive grace. If works are absent then faith is also absent and grace will not be received.

“for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, that no man should glory.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8-9‬ ‭ASV‬‬

Your very close brother. However I do commend you on your boldness to proclaim something that is quite a controversial point of view. I just think you need a little more contemplation and guidance to put it together correctly. Your so close!!

I would encourage you to watch Kerrigan Skelly's Two Part Video Sermon on Works Salvation:

It was probably one of the most eye opening videos on understanding Paul's writings that I had ever seen before.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 11, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
I’ve explained James 2:24 brother. The Greek word used for justified also means to be shown to be right with God. James cannot be saying that Abraham was made right with God by his works because that contradicts what Paul said in Romans 4:2-5

No. James is saying that one is saved by their works of faith because their works of faith shows that they have a genuine faith. For faith without works is dead (James 2:17). A dead faith cannot save anyone. Also, James 1 says,

21 "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves." (James 1:21-22).

We are told to lay apart all filthiness (sin, not dirt) and receive the engrafted communicated Word of God which is able to save our souls. Be a doer of the Word and not a hearer; For if this is not the case, we are deceiving ourselves.

No doubt this is why Luther said the book of James was an epistle of straw because the teaching in the book of James undoes what Luther believed.

You said:
“For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.” Romans‬ ‭4:2-5‬ ‭ASV‬‬

To him that works his reward is not of grace but it is of debt as if it was some kind of obligation like at a job whereby he works so as to earn money.

"Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation (something owed to him)." (Romans 4:4) (AMPC).

So yes. I agree. Works Alone or trading dollars for hours like at a job involving salvation is wrong. Muslims are wrong because they have no grace or rest ever. It is purely a works based system of salvation in the Muslim religion and no grace or mercy (like with Christ) if they mess up. Their good deeds have to outweigh their bad deeds.

But this is not the same thing as "Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift."

I believe God's grace is a free gift as Scripture says (Ephesians 2:8). Gifts are received, and then we do works of responsibility to take care of those gifts.

Let me give you an example:
If Rick received a car as a free gift from his dad, does that mean he can run red lights, drive drunk, and hit pedestrians? No. If he were to do that, he would not have his gift for very long. Now, was his car any less a free gift because he had to do works of responsibility in possessing his free gift? No. Did Rick have to work at a job and get a loan to buy this car? No. It was a free gift from his dad.

So working like at a job (trading dollars for hours) is not the same as doing "Works of responsibility in owning a free gift." Paul is not talking about responsibility in possessing Jesus Christ (Who is our gift). Paul is talking about trying to earn your salvation by a system of "Works Salvationism Alone" that did not include God's grace at all.

You said:
By your interpretation James is contradicting Paul. This cannot be true. The only way it makes sense without contradicting other scriptures is by the second definition of justified which means Abraham was shown to be right with God.

It's not a contradiction. Paul is arguing against Works Alone Salvationism with a denial of Justification (Which is coming to Christ for the first time by faith and not works) and James is talking about Continued Salvation and or Works of Faith (Sanctification) that follows after one comes to faith in Christ.

James just mentioned being shown to be right with God by his works in verse 18.

“Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:18‬ ‭ASV‬‬

Sorry. James 2:18 actually supports what I have been saying with Scripture and destroys your belief. James is showing the necessity of works of faith to show a genuine faith. James 2:17 says faith without works is dead. A dead faith cannot save anyone and you need to have faith in order to access the saving grace of God in Ephesians 2:8. James 2:18 is criticizing your belief when James says, show me your faith without thy works, and I will show you my faith by my works. James is not saying what you are suggesting (Which is a faith with no works). James is criticizing that position. This is evident because that was his whole point from the beginning of the chapter in how he is telling his readers that they were wrongfully giving preferential treatment to the rich brethren and not to the poor brethren. Their faith is dead as a result of their doing this. For not loving your neighbor is a salvation issue (See Luke 10:25-28, 1 John 3:15).

You said:
Here’s another clue in James 2:14

“What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14‬ ‭ASV‬‬

James is explaining two types of faith. There’s a saving faith that produces works as mentioned in verse 14 and there’s a dead and useless faith that does not produce works which is not a saving faith as mentioned in verses 17 and 20. You see in verse 14 it is the type of faith that saves him. “Can that faith save him?” Not faith plus works but instead faith with works. The faith being the determining factor in which we receive grace provided that it produces works. Now back to verses 17 and 20.

“Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:17‬ ‭ASV‬‬

“But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is barren?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:20‬ ‭ASV‬‬

Again faith is the determining factor for receiving grace.

There is a difference between Faith + works vs. Faith (with) works?
Works of Faith is a by-product of a true genuine faith.
No matter how you slice it, works of faith are needed to authenticate one's faith as being true. This means works of faith are necessary to save a person because it shows whether or not their faith is true. It proves that Christ is truly living in them or not. For the good work we do is Christ and or God working through us; For Jesus said we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5).

But seeing God is holy; He cannot abide in our decision to sin. For if we willfully sin after we receive the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin (Hebrews 10:26).

Notice James gives examples in verses 15 & 16 of a person who has the opportunity to do good works but doesn’t. I submit that this only applies if the person has the ability and opportunity to do good works. Take for example the thief on the cross. He was unable to do good works yet he was still saved. Jesus was able to see his faith was genuine and I would be willing to bet that if the thief had been given the opportunity he would’ve done good works. Otherwise I don’t think he would’ve been saved according to James 2:14 and John 15:1-8 as well as a few other verses of scripture. I agree with you brother that works are necessary for salvation because they are necessary to having a genuine faith provided that the individual has the ability and opportunity to do works. I also believe it is possible that some can be saved on their death bed. I don’t recommend anyone wait that long because I’m not 100% convinced they will be saved but I do believe it is a possibility. What are your thoughts?

I also believe a person can be saved on their death bed; and that the thief on the cross is an example of God's grace without works of faith. But if live out our faith, we need works of faith to continually authenticate our faith or belief.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 11, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
I’ve explained James 2:24 brother. The Greek word used for justified also means to be shown to be right with God. James cannot be saying that Abraham was made right with God by his works because that contradicts what Paul said in Romans 4:2-5

“For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:2-5‬ ‭ASV‬‬

By your interpretation James is contradicting Paul. This cannot be true. The only way it makes sense without contradicting other scriptures is by the second definition of justified which means Abraham was shown to be right with God. James just mentioned being shown to be right with God by his works in verse 18.

“Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:18‬ ‭ASV‬‬

Here’s another clue in James 2:14

“What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14‬ ‭ASV‬‬

James is explaining two types of faith. There’s a saving faith that produces works as mentioned in verse 14 and there’s a dead and useless faith that does not produce works which is not a saving faith as mentioned in verses 17 and 20. You see in verse 14 it is the type of faith that saves him. “Can that faith save him?” Not faith plus works but instead faith with works. The faith being the determining factor in which we receive grace provided that it produces works. Now back to verses 17 and 20.

“Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:17‬ ‭ASV‬‬

“But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is barren?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:20‬ ‭ASV‬‬

Again faith is the determining factor for receiving grace.

Notice James gives examples in verses 15 & 16 of a person who has the opportunity to do good works but doesn’t. I submit that this only applies if the person has the ability and opportunity to do good works. Take for example the thief on the cross. He was unable to do good works yet he was still saved. Jesus was able to see his faith was genuine and I would be willing to bet that if the thief had been given the opportunity he would’ve done good works. Otherwise I don’t think he would’ve been saved according to James 2:14 and John 15:1-8 as well as a few other verses of scripture. I agree with you brother that works are necessary for salvation because they are necessary to having a genuine faith provided that the individual has the ability and opportunity to do works. I also believe it is possible that some can be saved on their death bed. I don’t recommend anyone wait that long because I’m not 100% convinced they will be saved but I do believe it is a possibility. What are your thoughts?

Again, I want to stress that "Works of faith" is just proof of a person's faith (or belief) in being genuine.

For example: If Bob said that his old rocking chair on his porch was able to hold his weight, and he said he believed that with all his heart, would he truly be showing forth that his statement of faith was true if he never sat in the chair? Especially if he was asked to sit in it and yet he refused to do so? In other words, if Bob believed that his porch chair would hold his weight (and he told others this), he would no doubt take the action necessary by sitting in that chair to prove that such a statement was true. Otherwise it would just be an empty profession of faith. In other words, if a person says they love God, and they have no visible good fruit to show that such a thing is true, then it would be just an empty profession of faith that they love God. Meaning, they really do not love God. It would just be a paying of lip service. I mean, a man can say he loves his wife, but if he does nothing to please her in any way, then he really does not love her. Action shows forth whether one's faith is the genuine and the real article vs. it being fake.

mark kennedy · Dec 12, 2018

I see your at it again, let's see what you have this time.

Jason0047 said:
Well, I used to believe works did not save (based on what the popular churches taught), but after careful examination of the Scriptures, I could no longer in good conscience ignore the many verses in the Bible that talk about how we are also saved by "works of faith," too. For I believe that after we are saved by God's grace, God’s works (done through us by faith) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process.

The faith part you got right, still trying to figure out what you mean by works.

Here are a List of Verses:

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

You have seriously neglected the context here, James is talking to Christians who should know better then to mistreat one another. Here is the key verse since you keep missing it.

Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment. (James 2:12-13)

I like the NIV title of the chapter, 'favoritism forbidden'. Rather insightful I think.

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

Yes and here is his example:

You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. (James 2:20-24)

When Abraham believed God and it was credited to him for righteousness he was a relatively young man, when he was prepared to sacrifice Isaac, he was well over a hundred years old. On his face before God he laughed at the promise of God, over hearing the same promise Sarah laughed, when Isaac was born he was named Isaac because it means 'she laughed'. But Abraham grew in his faith and Sarah came to believe the one who makes the promise is faithful. Abraham was only willing to offer Isaac because he believed God could raise him from the dead, due in large part because he had seen him born in the first place.

You really ought to learn more about the context.

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

Titus is talking about the Judaizers:

Judaizers are Christians who teach it is necessary to adopt Jewish customs and practices, especially those found in the Law of Moses, to be saved. The term is derived from the Koine Greek word Ἰουδαΐζειν (Ioudaizein), used once in the Greek New Testament (Galatians 2:14), when Paul publicly challenges Peter for compelling Gentile converts to Early Christianity to "judaize" (Judaizers, Wikipedia)

There were two errors that plagued the church in the first century, legalism and licentiousness, both are equally dangerous spiritually and still common in a number of various forms.

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

A Pastoral warning to shun those who preach the gospel for profit. Because the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil you know.

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

May our prayer always be, God have mercy on me a sinner.

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

You do realize that this discussion follows five chapters of doctrinal discussion regarding justification by grace through faith right?

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

Seriously, this is about Christ and his example:

Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek. (Hebrews 5:8-10)

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

Of course you miss the verse that emphasizes that our sanctification comes from grace:

See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. (Hebrews 12:15)

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Right! You hear the gospel and receive the Holy Spirit, that's the gospel, works follow, no indication it a list of rules.

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

As always, a wall of quotes and no exposition, no insights and very little commentary. Just some vague reference to works and a lot of verses taken out of context. Just once I would just love to see you pick a text and spend a little time on background, exegetical examination like a word search, a genuine insight and most importantly, spend anytime at all on the context.

redleghunter · Dec 12, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
One of the problems in the “sola” or “alone” quotes is that it is not alone for we are saved by grace and we also read we are saved by grace through faith.

And so when we say “Alone” it is not accurate and should not be used. This is similar with the “sola scripture” also for the primary rule is the Spirit of God working in believers at the new creation in Christ and as we walk in that life ten the scriptures will be profitable to us and understood.

I understand to say we are saved by grace through faith without the works of the law. But when some say we are saved by faith “alone” this is not accurate.

That's a good point and why none of the Solas stand alone:

1. Sola scriptura: “Scripture alone”
2. Sola fide: “faith alone”
3. Sola gratia: “grace alone”
4. Solo Christo: “Christ alone”
5. Soli Deo gloria: “to the glory of God alone”

CH Spurgeon and the 5 Solas of the Reformation

BNR32FAN · Dec 12, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Paul is fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism."
Romans 3:1 says what profit is there in circumcision?
This is because circumcision is a part of the OT;
And circumcision was never done before having faith in God (even when the OT was in effect before Christ's death).

Abraham had to FIRST believe by faith without works to be INITIALLY SAVED. His belief (or faith) was apart (separate) from the work of circumcision. But.... if Abraham did not later follow the command to be circumcised (Which is a work of faith) he would have been cut off from his people and he would have broken God's covenant. How so?

Genesis 17:14 says,
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant."

Granted, we are not under the Old Covenant Law (including circumcision) anymore, but we are under the commands that come from Jesus Christ and His followers in the New Covenant (or New Testament).

Anyways, Justification is the first step or phase in the salvation process. A person has to accept Christ as their Savior (without works) when they first come to the faith.

Context. Romans 9, Romans 10, Romans 11 deals clearly with the Jews. So Paul was talking to the Jews who were stuck in a false view of salvation that was all works, no grace, and no true faith. They were trying to be saved by Law Alone without a Savior.

Works alone. The Jews believed in works alone. Paul was saying to the Roman church that if they think like the Jews and make salvation all about "Works Alone" (without God's grace) by trying to be circumcised FIRST to be saved instead of by faith in the Savior first to be saved, then grace is no more grace. Jesus would no longer be the foundation of a person's grace and salvation if they thought they had to FIRST be circumcised to be saved.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 says you need to have both a belief and Sanctification of the Spirit as a part of salvation.

I understand that makes sense to you, but it technically is turning God's grace into a license for immorality if we teach a gospel that can potentially lead others to think they can sin and still be saved on some level. For the moment you say we are not saved by works, is the moment we minimize sin and or make light of it because we are covered by His grace. For do you believe King David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder?

This is talking about "Initial Salvation." Ephesians 2:1 talks about how Christ quickened us (Which is a one time event). Ephesians 3:17 says that Christ may dwell in our hearts by faith.

Sorry, I am not close to what you believe. Nor will I ever be close to what you believe because I see the Eternal Security belief or Belief Alone type belief as being immoral. I have argued strongly against these kinds of beliefs for many years and the more I study the New Testament over and over and over again, the more I see that refutes these erroneous type beliefs. They are wrong because they seek to turn God's grace into a license for immorality on some level (Whether you want that to happen or not).

Who cares about circumcision? Circumcision is performed on the 8th day after a child is born so it is performed before having faith. Anyway it’s completely irrelevant the scriptures do not say anywhere that works play a role in salvation. You didn’t address James 2:14. “Can that faith save him?” You also didn’t address the contradiction in Romans 4 or the thief on the cross. What works did the thief do? The scriptures your quoting say nothing about works playing a role in our salvation. I also refute eternal security and belief alone. However I do not refute faith alone in the proper context.

BBAS 64 · Dec 12, 2018

Jason0047 said:
In the KJV it says, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:1).

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).

Good Day, Jason

There is a textual variant there the phrase "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" is in verses 1 and 4. Most critical text scholars consider this a type of scribal error called dittography, which is the repetition of a letter, syllable, word, or phrase. The error is quite common when one hand copies written documentation... remember there was no Microsoft word back then.

In Him,

Bill

Bible Highlighter · Dec 12, 2018

redleghunter said:
That's a good point and why none of the Solas stand alone:

1. Sola scriptura: “Scripture alone”
2. Sola fide: “faith alone”
3. Sola gratia: “grace alone”
4. Solo Christo: “Christ alone”
5. Soli Deo gloria: “to the glory of God alone”

CH Spurgeon and the 5 Solas of the Reformation

They are missing Sanctification (holy living) on that list.
They say to the glory of God alone, but what they mean is: "I have a belief on Jesus alone, and I can sin and still be saved one some level because works do not play a part in my salvation."

Some believe they can sin as much as they want.
Others think they have to strive to not sin, and yet they will always sin (and cannot help but to sin at some point again).
Both are saying the same thing.... which is a justification of sin or evil (Which is turning God's grace into a license for immorality because the Bible says you can overcome grievous sin in this life, See: 1 Corinthians 10:13, Romans 13:14, Galatians 5:16, Galatians 5:24, 2 Corinthians 7:1).

Anyways, the Bible says this about glory and the Sanctification process (that the above list leaves out):

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16).

For God has chosen us from the beginning for salvation through two things.

#1. Belief of the Truth (Jesus - John 14:6).
#2. Sanctification of the Spirit (Holy Living).

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:" (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

"Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit...". (1 Peter 1:22).

1 Thessalonians 4:4
"That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;"

"For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness." (1 Thessalonians 4:7).

"So all people who have this confidence in Christ keep themselves pure, as Christ is pure." (1 John 3:3 GW).

For Jesus says in John 17:19,
"And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth."

“But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.” (1 John 2:5).

Bible Highlighter · Dec 12, 2018

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, Jason

There is a textual variant there the phrase "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" is in verses 1 and 4. Most critical text scholars consider this a type of scribal error called dittography, which is the repetition of a letter, syllable, word, or phrase. The error is quite common when one hand copies written documentation... remember there was no Microsoft word back then.

In Him,

Bill

I don't believe there are errors in God's Word.

"For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when you received the word of God which you heard of us, you received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually works also in you that believe." (1 Thessalonians 2:13).

Proverbs 20:5 (KJV)
"Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him."

In other words, if I have faith in God's Word in the parts of the Bible that talk about putting my faith (or trust) in the Son is true, then I can have an assurance and hope that the rest of it is true, as well.

No errors.

My faith rests upon no error because God's word is pure.

BBAS 64 · Dec 12, 2018

Jason0047 said:
I don't believe there are errors in God's Word.

"For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when you received the word of God which you heard of us, you received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually works also in you that believe." (1 Thessalonians 2:13).

Proverbs 20:5 (KJV)
"Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him."

In other words, if I have faith in God's Word in the parts of the Bible that talk about putting my faith (or trust) in the Son is true, then I can have an assurance and hope that the rest of it is true, as well.

No errors.

My faith rests upon no error because God's word is pure.

Good Day, Jason

I describe a category of "scribal" error I take it you have not really taken any time to understand textual issues.

I agree the God-breathed out word has no errors... but that is not the same as scribal errors you must take into account correct categories.

I would have to take a look at the orginal 1611, it was not uncommon for the translator to point out these kinds of things as most were high church textual scholars in their own right. Their margin notes are very interesting as they give some very interesting alternate translations. I guess when you are using Erasmus as the primary NT Greek text you could have that issue...

In Him,

Bill

Bible Highlighter · Dec 12, 2018

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, Jason

I describe a category of "scribal" error I take it you have not really taken any time to understand textual issues.

I agree the God-breathed out word has no errors... but that is not the same as scribal errors you must take into account correct categories.

I would have to take a look at the orginal 1611, it was not uncommon for the translator to point out these kinds of things as most were high church textual scholars in their own right. Their margin notes are very interesting as they give some very interesting alternate translations. I guess when you are using Erasmus as the primary NT Greek text you could have that issue...

In Him,

Bill

If a person is looking to see errors, they will see them. If they are looking to trust in God's Word and see that it is perfect and divine in origin, they can see that, too. It's a faith thing. You have faith there are errors in God's Word. I have faith that there are no errors in God's Word. Why?

Well, God's Word claims that it is perfect (Psalms 12:6) (Psalms 119:140) (Proverbs 30:5) and that it will be preserved for all generations (Psalms 12:7) and it will stand forever (Isaiah 40:8) (1 Peter 1:25). Therefore, seeing Scripture plainly states these facts, it then becomes an issue of a test of your faith in God's Word (See the test the devil gave to Eve in Genesis 3:1); For the Bereans were more noble because they compared the spoken Word of God with the written Word of God (Acts of the Apostles 17:11). In other words, if the Bereans thought the written Word was corrupt in some way they would have no way of really knowing if the spoken Word of God was true or not.

The original languages like the Hebrew and Greek is perfect.

While I do not agree with Chuck's view on Soteriology, I do like his apologetics on the divine perfection of God's Word. I would highly recommend seeing these two short videos here:

Also see this article:
Bible Prophecy: A Beginner's Guide: Does God Leave Fingerprints?

A Short Genealogy of David found in the Hebrew:

Biblical Numerics (Not Numerology) Confirms the Divine Nature of the Word of God in the English, too.

The Bible actually tells us to count numbers as a part of wisdom (understanding) (See Revelation 13:18). Biblical Numerics is not numerology where numbers rule a person's life, or whereby these numbers try to give a person special visions or prophecies or anything like that. Biblical Numerics is just looking at the meaning of the numbers in the Bible based on how they are used repeatedly through out it. For example, Christ was in the wilderness 40 days and 40 nights. This was like a trial. Noah was also in a trial, too. He was in the Ark for 40 days and 40 nights. In other words, the number 40 in the Bible is simply telling us that it relates to a trial or testing.

Anyways, while I am not a fan of Mike's other videos that do not pertain to Biblical Numerics, he does an excellent job on these kinds of studies. Please check out this video here on the amazing occurrences on the number 7 in the King James Bible.

Also, check out his study on the Number 8, too:

If you were to watch these videos, the facts that he presents to you will blow your mind.

BNR32FAN · Dec 12, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Again, I want to stress that "Works of faith" is just proof of a person's faith (or belief) in being genuine.

For example: If Bob said that his old rocking chair on his porch was able to hold his weight, and he said he believed that with all his heart, would he truly be showing forth that his statement of faith was true if he never sat in the chair? Especially if he was asked to sit in it and yet he refused to do so? In other words, if Bob believed that his porch chair would hold his weight (and he told others this), he would no doubt take the action necessary by sitting in that chair to prove that such a statement was true. Otherwise it would just be an empty profession of faith. In other words, if a person says they love God, and they have no visible good fruit to show that such a thing is true, then it would be just an empty profession of faith that they love God. Meaning, they really do not love God. It would just be a paying of lip service. I mean, a man can say he loves his wife, but if he does nothing to please her in any way, then he really does not love her. Action shows forth whether one's faith is the genuine and the real article vs. it being fake.

The actions do not manifest the cause. It is the cause that manifests the actions. Works do not develop faith it is faith that develops works. Sure if the works are absent then the faith is also absent but works can also be present even with an absence of faith as we see in the Pharisees.

Ken Rank · Dec 12, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Memorize the verses I put forth to you and meditate on them in what they say. Truly believe every word of them. This will help you to see where I am coming from. Until then, I believe you are ignoring these verses.

If I don't listen to you I am ignoring scripture? Look, I don't take one verse, use an interpretation that puts it at odds with 100 other verses, and then get dogmatic about it. You can... but I am not going there. Be blessed.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 12, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
The actions do not manifest the cause. It is the cause that manifests the actions. Works do not develop faith it is faith that develops works. Sure if the works are absent then the faith is also absent but works can also be present even with an absence of faith as we see in the Pharisees.

That was what my porch chair example is all about. If you have a belief, your actions are going to back up that belief. It is the same with Jesus. If we believe Jesus is our Lord, then we will do what He says. For Jesus says why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not what I say? (Luke 6:46).

Think. If Jesus is not a person's Lord, then somebody else is.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 12, 2018

Ken Rank said:
If I don't listen to you I am ignoring scripture? Look, I don't take one verse, use an interpretation that puts it at odds with 100 other verses, and then get dogmatic about it. You can... but I am not going there. Be blessed.

I didn't write Scripture. God did. So do not shoot the messenger. I am saying you are ignoring the verses in what they plainly say. It's not my opinion but it is by the fact that you are not explaining these verses in how they work from your viewpoint or belief.

Ken Rank · Dec 12, 2018

Jason0047 said:
I didn't write Scripture. God did. So do not shoot the messenger. I am saying you are ignoring the verses in what they plainly say. It's not my opinion but it is by the fact that you are not explaining these verses in how they work from your viewpoint or belief.

You didn't ask... you insisted that your interpretation of the Corinthians verse was correct and immediately went to telling me how wrong I was rather than ask me to share why using the verses I said stand in contrast to your view. Now, I don't care.... I am sick and tired of Christians who try to one up each other. We're supposed to be family, not combatants in some theological urinating match. I am not responding again in this thread. Have a great day.

redleghunter · Dec 12, 2018

Jason0047 said:
They are missing Sanctification (holy living) on that list.

Actually the Solas address our entire walk with Christ.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 12, 2018

mark kennedy said:
I see your at it again, let's see what you have this time.

While you may refer to my postings as: "your at it again" is what I would call: "Preaching the Word (for the glory of Jesus Christ)." For I am told to preach the Word (2 Timothy 4:2). So that is what I am doing.

You said:
You have seriously neglected the context here, James is talking to Christians who should know better then to mistreat one another. Here is the key verse since you keep missing it.

Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment. (James 2:12-13)

I like the NIV title of the chapter, 'favoritism forbidden'. Rather insightful I think.

Well, I fail to see how quoting the context here proves your erroneous view of "Belief Alone Salvationism" in any way.

Lets look at the verses.

"So speak and so act as [people should] who are to be judged under the law of liberty [the moral instruction given by Christ, especially about love]." (James 2:12) (AMP).

"There will be no mercy in judgment for anyone who hasn’t shown mercy. Mercy overrules judgment." (James 2:13) (CEB).

The believers James is writing to were favoring the rich brethren and they did not regard the poor brethren.

These kind of believers will have no mercy when they are faced by Christ at the judgment because they did not love their brother (or love their neighbor). We will be judged under the law of liberty (in loving God and loving others).

"But if you have respect to persons, you commit sin,"
(James 2:9).

This is why James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
Their actions were not in line with their faith in Christ, and they had a dead faith that cannot save by their not loving the brethren.

We see this also expressed by John.

"Whosoever hates his brother is a murderer: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

Also, in James we read:

21 "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves." (James 1:21-22).

So the point here is not Easy Believism but it is in being a doer of the Word unless one is deceiving themselves. We are told to lay apart all filthiness of the flesh and receive the Word, which is able to save our souls. Filthiness is in reference to sin. We are to put away sin out of our lives and receive God's Word in being a doer of it as a part of saving our souls.

You said:
Yes and here is his example:

You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. (James 2:20-24)

When Abraham believed God and it was credited to him for righteousness he was a relatively young man, when he was prepared to sacrifice Isaac, he was well over a hundred years old. On his face before God he laughed at the promise of God, over hearing the same promise Sarah laughed, when Isaac was born he was named Isaac because it means 'she laughed'. But Abraham grew in his faith and Sarah came to believe the one who makes the promise is faithful. Abraham was only willing to offer Isaac because he believed God could raise him from the dead, due in large part because he had seen him born in the first place.

You really ought to learn more about the context.

Well, you act like you think the context proves your point but it doesn't. You also are insulting me by telling me to learn the context (When I am 100% fully aware of what the context says). Works of faith prove that one's faith is genuine. That is what James is saying here.

James point is not Easy Believism or Faith Alone in this passage because he says we are justified (saved) by works and not by faith alone (See James 2:24). James says faith without works is dead and he makes his point that you not only need a belief but you also need works to show that belief to be true. This is why Abraham and Rahab were both justified by their works after their belief or faith in God. Just as the body is dead without the spirit, faith without works is dead also. Can a dead faith access the saving grace of God? No.

Jason0047 said:
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

You said:
Titus is talking about the Judaizers:

Judaizers are Christians who teach it is necessary to adopt Jewish customs and practices, especially those found in the Law of Moses, to be saved. The term is derived from the Koine Greek word Ἰουδαΐζειν (Ioudaizein), used once in the Greek New Testament (Galatians 2:14), when Paul publicly challenges Peter for compelling Gentile converts to Early Christianity to "judaize" (Judaizers, Wikipedia)

There were two errors that plagued the church in the first century, legalism and licentiousness, both are equally dangerous spiritually and still common in a number of various forms.

If works play no part in the salvation process, then Paul would not confuse his readers by saying that a person can deny God by being reprobate in regards to good works. A person can deny God by their work. This is confirmed also in 1 John 2:4. For a person who says that they know the Lord and yet they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them (i.e. the Truth being Jesus). A person needs to abide in Christ to be saved. For 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life. Most Belief Alone Proponents (not exactly you) believe King David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder. However, this is turning God's grace into a license for immorality (licentiousness) because it is teaching a person can be like a King David and be saved while they commit sin.

Jason0047 said:
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

You said:
A Pastoral warning to shun those who preach the gospel for profit. Because the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil you know.

1 Timothy 6:3-4 is a general statement before the talk of any money. It does not mention money yet and it's evils. Even if it was talking about money, it would not change anything. It would still prove that we need to agree with godliness and the words of Jesus otherwise we do not know anything and we are proud.

1 Timothy 6:3-4 says a person is proud if they do not agree with godliness and the words of Jesus. James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. In other words, a person who thinks they can sin and still be saved or who justifies sin on some level is proud because they think they can do evil under God's grace (When in reality God cannot agree with sin).

Jason0047 said:
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

You said:
May our prayer always be, God have mercy on me a sinner.

No doubt, you are quoting the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee so as to make a point about being humble. However, you need to understand that the Bible teaches both Justification (Seeking forgiveness with the Savior) and it also teaches Sanctification (Holy living by the Spirit). Both are a part of salvation (See 2 Thessalonians 2:13). So a person can be humble in Justification and they can be humble in Sanctification. The Pharisee was not humble here because he was refusing to repent of his sins. The Parable does not say that this is the forever state of the believer. In fact, the point that he is a Pharisee shows that he did not accept Jesus as His Savior, and he desperately needed to do so. That is the point of the Parable. For Jesus said that the Pharisees ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, FAITH, justice, and mercy (See Matthew 23:23, and Luke 11:42).

In fact, we know that the Tax Collector is not going to always live in a defeated state every day or every week in confessing his sins to GOD his whole life because the Bible also teaches that we can overcome grievous sin (See: 1 Corinthians 10:13, Romans 13:14, Galatians 5:16, Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 2:12, 1 Peter 4:1-2, 1 Corinthians 15:34, 2 Corinthians 7:1, Philippians 2:15, Romans 6:6-8, Romans 6:16, Hebrews 13:20-21, 1 John 2:5, 1 John 5:19, 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4, 1 Thessalonians 4:7, 1 Thessalonians 5:23. In fact, the Bible talk warns us about how there are false prophets who cannot cease from sin (See: 2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14).

Bible Highlighter · Dec 12, 2018

Ken Rank said:
You didn't ask... you insisted that your interpretation of the Corinthians verse was correct and immediately went to telling me how wrong I was rather than ask me to share why using the verses I said stand in contrast to your view. Now, I don't care.... I am sick and tired of Christians who try to one up each other. We're supposed to be family, not combatants in some theological urinating match. I am not responding again in this thread. Have a great day.

The topic is important because it is about serving the Lord in truth according to His Word rather than the way we prefer to serve Him. That is why I was challenging you to explain the verses from your belief. If you don't want to do that, then that is fine.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 12, 2018

redleghunter said:
Actually the Solas address our entire walk with Christ.

It's just that Sanctification (Holy Living) is not on that list and it should be. This to me is very suspicious because the Bible talks clearly about Sanctification (Holy living).

How Do you Define Sola Fide (Faith Alone) and is it Biblical?

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Natura non facit saltum

Thank You Jesus!

He’s a Way of life

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Contributor

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

He’s a Way of life

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Thank You Jesus!

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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