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Just adds to my question. Thanks we are all sinners before a Holy God.
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Just adds to my question. Thanks we are all sinners before a Holy God.But who can say they have never done evil? All have sinned and fall short of God’s glory. I did all kinds of evil before coming to Christ.
We are children of the Fall and the Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil.And How are you not seeing my answer? AGAIN~~
Because we are RATIONAL CREATURES WITH OUR OWN PERSONAL VOLITION.
Jesus Christ marveled at unbelief........BECAUSE HE CREATED RATIONAL CREATURES WITH PERSONAL VOLITION.
We are choosing to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and His work for our salvation from our God given rationality and personal volition. Acts 16:31.Are we choosing God in our fallen state?
No. Just because you say those verses do not mean what they say does not prove that you are correct. You have to explain word for word these verses.
I also answered the thief on the cross question in this thread already. The thief did good works. He was not ashamed of Jesus and he spoke in his defense.
Just adds to my question. Thanks we are all sinners before a Holy God.
Just adds to my question. Thanks we are all sinners before a Holy God.
I’m sorry I didn’t see your answer concerning the thief. I’m curious have you ever met a Christian that believes that we are saved by faith and works?
Oh I agree. What I was referring to is before our conversion.I think not always. After baptism or after confessing our sins they are forgiven and God remembers them no more.
Therefore, Prevenient Grace as you laid it out by the proof text above produces believers who will obey the Word and be converted but others will reject it.Context. Prevenient Grace is already established beforehand.
John 1:9 says,
“That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”
Therefore, Prevenient Grace as you laid it out by the proof text above produces believers who will obey the Word and be converted but others will reject it.
Back to the same question. Why is Prevenient Grace better for some and not others?
If your answer is “free will” then some have a predetermined free will to accept and some to reject.
We were created sinless without being condemned to death. We are children of Adam and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This is our fallen state.And How are you not seeing my answer? AGAIN~~
Because we are RATIONAL CREATURES WITH OUR OWN PERSONAL VOLITION.
Jesus Christ marveled at unbelief........BECAUSE HE CREATED RATIONAL CREATURES WITH PERSONAL VOLITION.
Ok but this free will you speak of produces two different results. That means the free will of some is more inclined to obey than others.No. God does not predetermine in making our choices for us. Free will means exactly that. You can make a free will choice between choosing Christ or not choosing Christ (of your own free will) while under God’s enlightenment. The choice does not become any less free if it is narrowed within a specific window of opportunity or possible multiple windows of opportunity. Yes, we are limited in the kind of free will choices we can make in this life. We cannot fly on our own power or shoot laser beams from out of our eyes. But we can still make free will choices in this life; Especially in regards to God (when He draws us and gives us enlightenment).
Ok but this free will you speak of produces two different results. That means the free will of some is more inclined to obey than others.
As you already pointed out people like Cornelius where his alms were seen by God and Paul who was on blinded rage filled genocide.
Yet both were called and Justified.
Would that not be a sovereign act of God?
That means God enlightens some to obey the Gospel and the rest don’t get that enlightenment.Again, nothing has changed. I already said that a person can do truth and or not do truth and yet, God can still give them enlightenment to freely choose of their own free will the gospel and Christ.
Actually the Biblical and Reformed view is what I posited above. That we are all condemned damned sinners deserving of God’s Judgement as children of wrath. That is our equal setting before a Holy God. That God has mercy on whom He has mercy and compassion on whom He has compassion.God is Sovereign even amongst His free willed beings. But Calvinist’s version of Sovereign is different. God actually makes the choice for a person (unconditionally) in whether they are saved or not (Which is immoral because God is loving and good and desires all to be saved). God does not randomly punish people for no reason.
Fair enough. That is also a verse Universalists use to show that God never fails in His will and purpose. That since God draws all people and lights every person, He will not fail in what He sets out to accomplish His will and purpose.John 3:21 was not meant to be an exhaustive truth. We see in John 1:9 says that Christ lights every man that comes into the world.
Fair enough. That is also a verse Universalists use to show that God never fails in His will and purpose. That since God draws all people and lights every person, He will not fail in what He sets out to accomplish His will and purpose.
So we have to be careful how the verses you and Universalists use to implore “all” and “world” means every human person who has ever lived, currently living or will live. Because we know they are wrong as other parts of the Bible confirm only those who believe and obey the Gospel will be saved.
Same here. If we look elsewhere we see your verses are qualified in Romans 8 that those who God calls He justifies. Meaning we have two types of calls. One general and one effectual where those God calls will be Justified conformed to the image of Christ in Sanctification and be Glorified. We also know that who these people are also believe and obey the Gospel, repent and receive the seal of Promise in the Holy Spirit. This is the expository on God calling the sinner. There’s nothing unfair or unjust about it.
Ok I will stick to the call of God.You are reading too much into these verses an assumption that it is in reference to every believer who was justified by accepting Christ at one time in their life. While God can justify those in whom He calls. That does not mean everyone called actually responds to God's call.
That means God enlightens some to obey the Gospel and the rest don’t get that enlightenment.
Therefore God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.Actually the Biblical and Reformed view is what I posited above. That we are all condemned damned sinners deserving of God’s Judgement as children of wrath. That is our equal setting before a Holy God. That God has mercy on whom He has mercy and compassion on whom He has compassion.
You said:As dead in our sins by God’s mercy and love He makes us alive in Jesus Christ by taking out the heart of stone and giving us a heart of flesh. And by doing so we can truly choose Him by godly sorrow leading to repentance. That’s all Biblical.
Where our views differ is you believe everyone is put into this state to choose God freely and can still reject Him. Whereas Paul says those God calls He Justifies and Glorifies. Also Paul speaks of the bondage of the human will in Romans 6. We are either in bondage to sin leading to death or in bondage to righteousness.
You said:With this Biblical bondage of the human will qualified, it explains why some reject the Gospel and some accept the Gospel.
Even in your version of Arminian Prevenient Grace, there is human free will but two results. The first being belief and obedience to the Gospel and the second being not to come into the Light and rejection of the Gospel.
You then mention God enlightens some or helps them out not taking away their free will. Yet we still have the people who are not helped out and remain condemned. This is still God calling some and not others to conversion and you have the same problem with fairness and justice as some free will is better than others.
Unless of course your point was there is some inner goodness in some of us before conversion which enables our free will?
Ok I will stick to the call of God.
Romans 8 is not verse plucking. It’s actually a teaching on how God calls. Paul specifically says those called God justifies. No wall of out of context verses can negate what Paul clearly communicates in Romans 8. Romans 8 is the context. All of Romans in fact leading up to Romans 8. Then the following chapters which clearly teach the sovereignty of God over His creation.
So we have to deal with where someone is clearly speaking of those who are in Christ (which means doing what He says) and how God called them in the first place. Romans 8 teaches this and actually connects the calling of God to a child of God and how He is intimately involved in Calling, Justification, Sanctification and Glorification.
God does choose and He chooses first. Romans is clear on this. Romans also teaches that godly sorrow leads to repentance and salvation and we believe with our heart and confess with our lips Jesus Christ as Lord. That’s us choosing God because He calls us.
There’s no way around these truths Paul presents to us from Romans chapter 1 through chapter 16. It is a theological dissertation which cannot be divided into pet theologies.
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