How do We Know if We are in YHWH's Renewed Covenant?

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1 Cor 4
in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. 16 Therefore I urge you, be imitators of me.

1 Cor 11
Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.
2 Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I handed them down to you.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is inspired by God and beneficial for teaching, for rebuke, for correction, for training in righteousness;

1 Thes 1
5 for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction; just as you know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sakes. 6 You also became imitators of us and of the Lord, having received the word during great affliction with the joy of the Holy Spirit, 7 so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedonia and Achaia.

Going back to the OP... a sign of being in YHWH's renewed covenant is being indwelled with the Fear of the Lord. This is clearly stated in Jer 32:40

HARK! said:

Wrong.

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Are you implying Jesus did not mean what he said in Matthew 15:24?

DaveM said:

I see a lot of people who say Israel is Israel and the church is the church and they are separate.

So my question is who is Israel exactly according to the bible?

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By Romans 9:6

There is true Israel, which are Jews who believed that Jesus is the Messiah. (John 20:31)
There is natural Israel, which are those physical Jews, majority of them has rejected Jesus as their Messiah.

Carl Emerson said:

1 Cor 4
in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. 16 Therefore I urge you, be imitators of me.

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So, Carl, who is your father?

Guojing said:

true Israel, which are Jews who believed that Jesus is the Messiah.

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who are the ones that are Abraham's seed that inherit the promise made to him in Gensis 17

DaveM said:

who are the ones that are Abraham's seed that inherit the promise made to him in Gensis 17

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Genesis 17 is a promise of land

8 The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.”

That will be fulfilled after the Tribulation. Jesus will return for the nation of Israel, they will all believed that he is the Son of God, and they are the ones that of Abraham's seed that will inherit that particular promise.

HARK! said:

Do you see a speck in my eye?

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Just a hole in your logic. I have no judgment on you if you mix or not mix your grains.

Guojing said:

Genesis 17 is a promise of land

8 The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.”

That will be fulfilled after the Tribulation. Jesus will return for the nation of Israel, they will all believed that he is the Son of God, and they are the ones that of Abraham's seed that will inherit that particular promise.

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thanks for the reply, but it seems to me that just because they are Jewish does not make you a child of Abraham

Romans 9

6. It is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are Abraham’s descendants are they all his children. On the contrary, “Through Isaac your offspring will be reckoned.”b 8 So it is not the children of the flesh who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as offspring.

it also says

Galatians 3:29
And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

DaveM said:

thanks for the reply, but it seems to me that just because they are Jewish does not make you a child of Abraham

Romans 9

6. It is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are Abraham’s descendants are they all his children. On the contrary, “Through Isaac your offspring will be reckoned.”b 8 So it is not the children of the flesh who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as offspring.

it also says

Galatians 3:29
And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

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Yes of course you are correct. Those Jews are what I refer to natural Israel, which are those physical Jews, majority of them has rejected Jesus as their Messiah.

You have to be a Jew, AND you have to believe Jesus as the Messiah, before you can inherit the Land promise in Genesis 17.

What Paul was referring to in Galatians 3 is that we inherit the same righteousness as Abraham had when he believed God in Genesis 15, that he will have descendants as vast as the stars in heaven.

Us in the Body of Christ, our destiny is in the heavens with Christ (Ephesians 2:6).

True Israel, on the other hand, their destiny will be to inherit that promised land in Genesis 17, on Earth. (Matthew 5:5)

At the end, Christ will present both groups to God the Father in that beautiful verse that Paul used in Ephesians

“That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him.” (Eph. 1:9–10.)

Leaf473 said:

Okay... And following that train of thought, Jeremiah and his readers would have thought that the animal sacrifice laws were also God's laws, wouldn't they?

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Animal sacrifice applied to both Jews and gentiles at that time as we see in Is 56:6-8. (Explains why Adam and Noah engaged in it -- not just Jacob... not just Abraham) Maybe you meant to pick something else? or are you saying that those with a Bible telling them about animal sacrifice - would not happen to have a Bible with Heb 10 in it so they would not know if animal sacrifice as a form of worship had come to an end?

Blade said:

Yet all this is mute when "Those are Paul's words, not YHWH's;". For me it was the sweet sweet holy Spirit that was talking through Paul same exactly holy Spirit that spoke through Moshe, Moishe, Moses (incase one gets stuck on names). It does come in handy no offense to believe like this for then you can just toss out things since it was not God just man talking.

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Agreed -

Both Paul and Peter affirmed that scripture is the work of God ... not man. When you get responses about ignoring some text because it was written by a man that so-and-so does not align with -- then they are also not aligning with Peter or Paul.

BobRyan said:

Agreed -

Both Paul and Peter affirmed that scripture is the work of God ... not man. When you get responses about ignoring some text because it was written by a man that so-and-so does not align with -- then they are also not aligning with Peter or Paul.

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I agree. As Paul tells us clearly, we are expected to (2 Timothy 2:15)

Study to show thyself approved to God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Only by rightly dividing the word of truth for

• Israel
• The Body of Christ

will one be able to make sense of scripture without worrying about contradictions.

Guojing said:

Us in the Body of Christ, our destiny is in the heavens with Christ (Ephesians 2:6).

True Israel, on the other hand, their destiny will be to inherit that promised land in Genesis 17, on Earth. (Matthew 5:5)

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I am not following this, as you are making a distinction between Jew and gentile and God's word says

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11
Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.

Romans 10:12
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.

Romans 3:22
The righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:

DaveM said:

I see a lot of people who say Israel is Israel and the church is the church and they are separate.

So, my question is who is Israel exactly according to the bible?

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After writing the following, I'm coming back to apologize for writing all this wandering this stuff, but I'm going to leave it as is & post it back to you:

Mainly due to what you mention, this can be a complex question with very probable conflict to discuss in this time (especially on this forum), IMO, due to varying theologies. That's part of the reason I simply posted the Scriptures I did, for consideration & possible comments regarding the discussion about the Body of Christ that was taking place.

When we talk about Israel, we go back to Jacob (and Isaac & Abraham), and those descended from him, and we speak of the nation Israel. Then we get down through history to Christ and into eschatology and the concerns about Replacement Theology (what you're seeing re: "Israel is Israel and the church is the church and they are separate" - vs. the Church is the new Israel & God is done with the nation Israel & is there really any meaning to Israel becoming a nation again in the last century, etc...), and we can get into verses like the ones I posted where we deal with the meaning of the "Israel of God" and the meaning of "Jew" and so on...

Honestly, it's been a few decades since I dealt with any of this, and eschatological discussions are something I set aside some time ago. I periodically read what those in certain camps view as important studies on their various eschatological positions. So, I'm not the best one to answer you. I simply posted some Scriptures that make me consider what God's Plan is and who He calls what and why He does so.

Sorry to leave you there, but I think the Scriptures I posted are worthy of consideration in the discussion and they're pretty clear in what they say. And the Hebrew meanings of words come into play, which is why I posted the link to the root meaning of Jew being praise. And the verse I posted says praise comes from God - so who does God praise - who is the true Jew at the end of all of this? Other word studies will show potential links to words and names denoting submission to authority. Based upon things like this, who is the true Israel and what does "Israel" mean (including seeing it has the word "El" at the end)? Are we really talking about a nation among nations, or ultimately a people of all races who are truly in submission to God in Christ, or in some sense both, or something deeper altogether?

I'm not taking positions to argue. I do find the Text and the root meanings of God's words fascinating. I also trust that He's got all of this under control and the end of the matter is and will be as He has determined.

Again, sorry for the rambling...

DaveM said:

I am not following this, as you are making a distinction between Jew and gentile and God's word says

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11
Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.

Romans 10:12
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.

Romans 3:22
The righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:

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As I said in another post in this thread, once you learn to rightly divide the word of truth, you will find all these scripture passages much easier to understand.

Paul is referring to the Body of Christ, and yes you are correct, there is neither Jew nor gentile there.

Once you believe that Christ died for your sins, and rose again on the 3rd day for your justification (aka 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), you become a member of the Body of Christ.

But Israel is not the Body of Christ.

Israel only consists of the physical descendants of Abraham. They either believe that Jesus is their Messiah, which makes them True Israel, or they reject Jesus as their Messiah, meaning they are natural but not True Israel.

GDL said:

I guess I would discuss these topics & verses for a start:

NET Galatians 6:14-18 But may I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything; the only thing that matters is a new creation! 16 And all who will behave in accordance with this rule, peace and mercy be on them, and on the Israel of God. 17 From now on let no one cause me trouble, for I bear the marks of Jesus on my body. 18 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers and sisters. Amen.
The NIV picks this up:

NIV Galatians 6:16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule-- to the Israel of God.​

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If you use the NIV, instead of the KJV, to interpret this verse, then you have to agree that what James and the elders said to Paul, in Acts 21:21, was actually correct.

21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

For_Faith said:

So, Carl, who is your father?

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Gal 3
7 Therefore, recognize that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

BobRyan said:

Animal sacrifice applied to both Jews and gentiles at that time

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a gentile would have sought to keep the law through the Jews. no gentile offered a sacrifice or entered the holy of holies which would have defiled the sacrifice. So an important ingredient of the law is the Jews themselves. without the jew, the law cannot function.

John 4:22
You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.

Rom 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

the Jew we look to now is Christ. everything is accomplished through him, he is our high priest, but it is not in the physical (because the physical is gone) it is in the spiritual. For example, Christ does not physically circumcise he circumcises the heart. If you would want to seek the law you would have to seek it through the Jews today just as it was done 2000 years ago but I doubt the bloodline has survived with the many diasporas they've had. Today to be a Jew is more cultural than blood and we are all gentile, there are no more natural branches. I don't mean that in a derogatory sense but the reality is law accomplishes nothing because no one can perform the rites for law to have meaning so we are all forced to go through Christ.

In case we forgot the veil is torn in two, and if we forgot that the temple is destroyed, and if we forgot that the bloodline is fractured over and over again and forces the old out, and if we forgot that everything of the old is gone so there is nothing left to seek so there is no other option but Christ. the system of old is gone (literally) and because of that the law cannot function as much as we try for it to function it cannot. Hebrew literally became a dead language because no one spoke it and it was only recently readopted. the only part of the old that really exists is the western wall known as the "wailing wall" because fixated on the old all we can do is mourn its loss and nothing more. in order to move on we must leave the old where it is (left 2000 years ago) and we must go through Christ.