How do we define "man" and "woman"

[ScottA]

Appeals to natural order are silly in this discussion. Given that God is so transcendent and above human cognition, how do we not know its God's will that certain people are born with a sense of being the opposite sex?

The natural order is self-evident - it's simply the numbers of what is most "natural." Nothing silly about that.

But your deduction is correct: Indeed, God has made some exceptions to what is most common. However, they can never be considered "equal" or that it lessens the general terms...which is simply true because of the numbers.

 

[FireDragon76]

The natural order is self-evident - it's simply the numbers of what is most "natural." Nothing silly about that.

But your deduction is correct: Indeed, God has made some exceptions to what is most common. However, they can never be considered "equal" or that it lessens the general terms...which is simply true because of the numbers.

What do you mean, they cannot be considered equal? Human equality is a basic belief in most Christian and Jewish theologies. Just because transgender people are rare also doesn't make the issue inconsequential to Christian ethics. Jesus was willing to risk the 99 good sheep for the one odd sheep out, so why shouldn't our theology be willing to do the same?

I don't think that a civilized society would pursue medical treatments trying to fix the brains of transsexuals to make them happy with their birth-sex. The phenomenon of gender identity is so complex that it would probably required very intrusive medical interventions. That strikes at the heart of the dignity of the human being and their self-determination, something we in western societies value a great deal... precisely because it is part of our Jewish and Christian traditions.

 

[FireDragon76]

From Kindergarten Cop:
Joseph: [to Phoebe] Boys have a penis, and girls have a vagina.

Phoebe: [to Kimble] Well, I see you've covered the basics.

Actually, kids beliefs about gender are not necessarily tied to biology. Some children think just wearing different clothes will cause them to become that gender. And there are real human cultures where wearing the clothes of another gender is considered the same as becoming that gender (Native American cultures). So the idea that dressing as a woman and living as a woman makes you a woman is really not that bizarre. It's only bizarre in a culture that believes that rigid gender roles must be enforced.

 

[Locutus]

we can't currently do anything to resolve it on the gender side. It has to do with brain structure, and we don't have a good answer for that yet. So all of our progress thus far has been on the sex side, with quite a bit of success.

That's the problem. There is so much politicised weight behind the de-pathologising of gender confusion, and it's not cohesive weight (there are MANY 'anti-trans' gay people who've lost their voice due to the melding of the colours in the rainbow), that we're now well past any possibility of finding practical psychiatric treatments.

Schizophrenia was never politicised, so we're able to continue to treat it with good results. Imagine if it had been politicised in the same way gender confusion has. Seriously, give it some thought. And while there, consider a weight political movement compelling us to regard Chicken-people as normal, and to pander to their inner chicken. Imagine if we treated chicken identification by surgically producing a human who looks like a chicken. Okay, maybe that would be kinda cool ... but you get the drift.

 

[Locutus]

I don't think that a civilized society would pursue medical treatments trying to fix the brains of transsexuals to make them happy with their birth-sex. The phenomenon of gender identity is so complex that it would probably required very intrusive medical interventions. That strikes at the heart of the dignity of the human being and their self-determination, something we in western societies value a great deal... precisely because it is part of our Jewish and Christian traditions.

Do we fail to treat the schizoid in case we mess with their self-determination? Or do they actually gain dignity from a reduction in symptoms?

It might benefit you to consider the implications of a world in which you're expected to acknowledge (and pander to) every mad whim on the part of others. I'm a skinny, 50 year old female of shortish stature, but I identify as a male Viking, and insist that you accommodate my need to live in the manner of the 800AD Dane. My husband identifies as a chicken, so please remember to make room for his avian needs as you go about your day.

 

[ScottA]

What do you mean, they cannot be considered equal? Human equality is a basic belief in most Christian and Jewish theologies. Just because transgender people are rare also doesn't make the issue inconsequential to Christian ethics. Jesus was willing to risk the 99 good sheep for the one odd sheep out, so why shouldn't our theology be willing to do the same?

I don't think that a civilized society would pursue medical treatments trying to fix the brains of transsexuals to make them happy with their birth-sex. The phenomenon of gender identity is so complex that it would probably required very intrusive medical interventions. That strikes at the heart of the dignity of the human being and their self-determination, something we in western societies value a great deal... precisely because it is part of our Jewish and Christian traditions.

You are offended because, being a person, I should speak as a person, and not consider things from God's perspective - who, by design has made things imperfect for a reason. But we are not talking about my perspective, or yours, or why society should think of anything but itself - we are here to understand God.

So, equality was simply a noted assumption - like it actually matters...when really, it does not. The general rule or natural order of things, simply sets the course of what God is up to...and if that is confusing to some, it is not confusing to most - by design. The problem is not societal, or even medical - it's who you put your focus on.

 

[PapaZoom]

Actually, kids beliefs about gender are not necessarily tied to biology. Some children think just wearing different clothes will cause them to become that gender. And there are real human cultures where wearing the clothes of another gender is considered the same as becoming that gender (Native American cultures). So the idea that dressing as a woman and living as a woman makes you a woman is really not that bizarre. It's only bizarre in a culture that believes that rigid gender roles must be enforced.

So dressing up in my Tigger outfit makes me Tigger. You are what you wear.

 

[FireDragon76]

So dressing up in my Tigger outfit makes me Tigger. You are what you wear.

This is a metaphysical issue... and most mature people now days know metaphysics is the black hole of philosophy. But if you take human self determination seriously, it's hard to be dismissive.

 

[PapaZoom]

This is a metaphysical issue... and most mature people now days know metaphysics is the black hole of philosophy. But if you take human self determination seriously, it's hard to be dismissive.

Nonsense. It's a biological issue. You are a man or a woman. The rest is either an anomaly or a fantasy.

 

[The Cadet]

Do we fail to treat the schizoid in case we mess with their self-determination? Or do they actually gain dignity from a reduction in symptoms?

It might benefit you to consider the implications of a world in which you're expected to acknowledge (and pander to) every mad whim on the part of others. I'm a skinny, 50 year old female of shortish stature, but I identify as a male Viking, and insist that you accommodate my need to live in the manner of the 800AD Dane. My husband identifies as a chicken, so please remember to make room for his avian needs as you go about your day.

If it were shown that the most effective way to deal with your mental disorder (yes, GD is a mental disorder) was to accommodate that and help you transition into a form more in line with your identification, then yes, that is probably what we would do. Given that that is not the case, given that such cases are extremely fringe, and given that they are typically more representative of other mental disorders which we treat in very different ways, I don't think that's the case. Seriously, all these analogies seem to miss the issue completely.

Nonsense. It's a biological issue. You are a man or a woman. The rest is either an anomaly or a fantasy.

So... what about all the evidence that gender is a biologically-expressed phenomenon?

 

[The Cadet]

That's the problem. There is so much politicised weight behind the de-pathologising of gender confusion, and it's not cohesive weight (there are MANY 'anti-trans' gay people who've lost their voice due to the melding of the colours in the rainbow), that we're now well past any possibility of finding practical psychiatric treatments.

...Except that Gender Dysphoria is still in the DSM-5, and nobody is pushing for the next revision to remove it. It is actually a pathology, as anyone suffering from it can tell you (gender dysphoria is inherently harmful to the person who it applies to; reassignment is one of a few harm reduction strategies), and I don't believe that, were someone to present a viable treatment method that was based on reassigning gender rather than sex, this would be rejected. Do you have any basis for this claim?

@ThatRobGuy made a similar claim, albeit far less strongly, that research into that field hasn't really progressed as far as it could have if we took a harder line on it (or something like that, feel free to correct me if that wasn't your position), which is considerably more reasonable... But there just hasn't been much research into the issue, largely because the reaction to transgender individuals up until fairly recently was to either pretend they didn't exist, or prosecute them.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

@ThatRobGuy made a similar claim, albeit far less strongly, that research into that field hasn't really progressed as far as it could have if we took a harder line on it (or something like that, feel free to correct me if that wasn't your position), which is considerably more reasonable...

You're correct, that was my position.

As you mentioned in your post, until fairly recently, people would pretend they didn't exist...now, I feel it's transitioned into this societal push into pretending the condition doesn't exist (IE: thinking it's completely normal and not a condition at all).

If something's not viewed as a condition or medical problem by society, then there's very little pressure on the scientific community to research the issue.

 

[The Cadet]

As you mentioned in your post, until fairly recently, people would pretend they didn't exist...now, I feel it's transitioned into this societal push into pretending the condition doesn't exist (IE: thinking it's completely normal and not a condition at all).

If something's not viewed as a condition or medical problem by society, then there's very little pressure on the scientific community to research the issue.

Given GD's continued presence in the DSM-V, I'm not inclined to think that that's the case. There was actually a fairly extensive legal battle to get things like hormone treatment covered as healthcare under medicaid. I agree that there's not a whole lot of pressure to research it, but I think that has more to do with the marginal nature of trans people than anything else. I mean, you've seen the figures on how few therapists even want to treat transgendered individuals, right?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

you've seen the figures on how few therapists even want to treat transgendered individuals, right?

Yes...and that's where society should be putting it's pressure...research and treatment. Not trying to guilt everyone else into pretending that "this is perfectly normal and gender is a very fluid thing".

If therapists aren't wanting to treat people, then our focus should be on that.

 

[FireDragon76]

I agree with Cadet, gender transition seems to be an effective treatment. They do treat gender dysphoric people with psychotherapy. Even trying to dissuade people that may just be confused. But a great many people with gender dysphoria are not expressing a personal preference, they are expressing how they feel they really are. I don't see what's so wrong with helping these people with medical interventions. Most medical professionals that are supportive of transpersons see it as a harm reduction strategy, not some kind of political or cultural agenda. In this way, they are expressing compassion for people that are suffering- a good thing in my mind. The anti-trans response seems to be the opposite- a lack of sympathy and a desire to have people conform to their own private religious interpretations of gender.

 

[PapaZoom]

If it were shown that the most effective way to deal with your mental disorder (yes, GD is a mental disorder) was to accommodate that and help you transition into a form more in line with your identification, then yes, that is probably what we would do. Given that that is not the case, given that such cases are extremely fringe, and given that they are typically more representative of other mental disorders which we treat in very different ways, I don't think that's the case. Seriously, all these analogies seem to miss the issue completely.



So... what about all the evidence that gender is a biologically-expressed phenomenon?

The evidence is scant and there are many voice on the matter. We are rushing to change the world based on incomplete evidence. A sixteen year old boy argues against a law that basically protects bathroom access in the ladies room to....well, actual women. It's clear from the boy's voice and dress that he's a he. When he is asked why he favors allowing grown men into the little girl's room he replies: "We don't want men to have access to the little girl's room."

At this, the meeting erupts into laughter because this has been exactly what the 16 year old male has been arguing for. "But you're a man!" someone from the crowd yells. Indeed, he is exactly that.

I don't want my two little girls to be in the women's only restroom and have someone, who is clearly NOT a female, walking into the room as if.....

Like this guy who is clearly NOT a female:

It's madness. What's next?

 

[The Cadet]

I don't want my two little girls to be in the women's only restroom and have someone, who is clearly NOT a female, walking into the room as if.....

Like this guy who is clearly NOT a female:

Why should we consider this person not a female for the purposes of using the bathroom? If they are legitimately transgendered, i.e. they identify as a woman, what, exactly, is the problem here? And keep in mind, in keeping this guy out, you're also ensuring that these people are legally obligated to use the women's restroom.

 

[PapaZoom]

Why should we consider this person not a female for the purposes of using the bathroom? If they are legitimately transgendered, i.e. they identify as a woman, what, exactly, is the problem here? And keep in mind, in keeping this guy out, you're also ensuring that these people are legally obligated to use the women's restroom.

Because he's a male. And women have the right to expect that men won't be allowed in the women's bathroom even if they put on a dress and a wig.

This kid (in the previous picture) is in HS and at 16 identified as a female and wants to use the girls showers and changing room. So he and his dingleberries will hang out for all the world to see. And that of course won't make the REAL 16 year old girls uncomfortable to see a flat chested guy with a full penis in the shower soaping up next to them-will it? But who cares about the 20 other "normal" 16 year old girls in the locker room? What matters is that one mixed up boy who thinks he's a girl with a penis.

I'm 64. So how about I self-identify as a 5-year-old girl and insist that I use the little girls room? That ok?

Our anatomy defines our gender. We can "feel" whatever we want but it won't change biology. There is nothing female about a male who identifies as a female but a piece of paper.

But what about exceptions you ask? Anomalies are just that: a deviation from the norm. The rest is pure fantasy.

So for the sake of the HUGE majority of those that identify as their birth gender (girls with real vaginas and boys with real penises) we identify all others the same way. It's the right thing to do. And if we need gender neutral facilities, I'm good with that. Everyone should feel safe. But we as a society make the rules for what's best for everyone involved, not just one individual who may have mental issues.

 

[Neochristian]

I wonder if memes would solve this problem.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[The Cadet]

Because he's a male.

Not according to the law in many places, not according to her gender, and not according to any reasonable consideration of the evidence. Is this a woman?

Why? Because he was born with a vagina? Why should that trump every other factor here? Particularly when it comes to the question of which bathroom he should use?

And women have the right to expect that men won't be allowed in the women's bathroom even if they put on a dress and a wig.

What pressing concern do women have here, exactly? Fear of sexual assault? Oh, right, please, cite the cases you know of where a transwoman committed sexual assault in a women's bathroom - I can tell you right now there aren't any. Privacy? Most transwomen just want to go in, do their business, and get out like anyone else. They have even more interest in respecting other people's privacy and having their own privacy respected, because trans people face incredible amounts of violence for their use of public restrooms, regardless of whether they use the restroom that corresponds with their sex or the one that corresponds with their gender.

Meanwhile, you know what's stacked up against that? General mental health - WPATH, the APA, and the AMA all recognize that living life as a member of the opposite sex is, in fact, part of treatment. Physical safety and wellbeing - trans people forced to use the opposite gender's restroom face far more harassment, assault, and abuse, and if you look at Shawn Stinson up there, you can probably figure out why. The gender of the individual - transwomen have a female gender. I realize you don't accept that gender is a thing which is distinct from sex, but you're just wrong - you might as well deny that genes exist, or deny that testosterone is a thing people have.

Our anatomy defines our gender.

You're right! Our anatomy also defines our sex. These are two distinct things! For some people, they get a female gender and a male sex. They may be the rare exception, but that does not diminish their existence, or their rights.

But who cares about the 20 other "normal" 16 year old girls in the locker room?

They're there to shower and change, not show off each other's genitals. If they have a problem with this transwoman, then yes, that is their problem. They can get over themselves. You might as well complain about a gay person sharing the shower - and they're more likely to stare.

I guarantee you that there are more cases of a transwoman being murdered for entering the men's bathroom than of transwomen raping women in the women's bathroom.