How do we define "man" and "woman"

[Locutus]

Well shoot, if this were a real mental health condition, if it had any physiological basis, if there was anyone who actually did this, we might have to have a reasoned and well-thought-out conversation about it! But, you know, it's not actually a thing, so...

Actually, it most certainly is a thing. Human mental illness reaches all manner of strange conclusions.

 

[Locutus]

Does it lead to a significantly increased suicide risk?

Probably, but so do many mental illnesses.

 

[Locutus]

Its mostly about genetics, hormones, and culture, etc.

For most of us, these things make our gender identity clear. A minority, however, live in a "grey area". Thats a fact of life and nature. Dont like it? Complain to the the boss.

A very small minority. Just as there is a small minority who will suffer from schizophrenia. Unless we have such a person in our immediate orbit, or work in the field, they have little bearing on our lives, nor we on theirs. We don't all walk around worrying about how schizoids feel about being ill, or being different. They are ill, they have doctors, and their families (hopefully) love and support them. As long as we treat mentally ill people with decency, and seek help for them when and as needed, we're doing all we need to do.

 

[Locutus]

So... What about intersex people?

again, very rare. the majority of transgender people are not intersex.

 

[Locutus]

Honestly, this, more than anything, is the point of this thread. A lot of people think these are trivial, simple concerns. That "male" and "female" are simple and straightforward things, easily determined by what's in your pants when you're born, or whether you have a Y chromosome. At this point, I'm fairly certain that that isn't the case.

It's not so much trivial, as irrelevant to about 99% of us. Yes, confused people exist. So do people who think they're chickens, or Jesus, or a reincarnation of Marie-Antoinette. We treat them gently and move on.

 

[Locutus]

How do you handle transgender people? Intersex? People who do not identify with their gender with the matching organs?

.

The same way I 'handle' anyone who is mentally ill. Gently and kindly, and with a focus on treatment.

 

[durangodawood]

A very small minority. Just as there is a small minority who will suffer from schizophrenia. Unless we have such a person in our immediate orbit, or work in the field, they have little bearing on our lives, nor we on theirs. We don't all walk around worrying about how schizoids feel about being ill, or being different. They are ill, they have doctors, and their families (hopefully) love and support them. As long as we treat mentally ill people with decency, and seek help for them when and as needed, we're doing all we need to do.

Well, the one trans person I know is probably going to grow up, be happy, and do remarkable things, in a good way. At least in her case, I'd hardly compare gender nonconformity to mental illness.

 

[PapaZoom]

Honestly, this, more than anything, is the point of this thread. A lot of people think these are trivial, simple concerns. That "male" and "female" are simple and straightforward things, easily determined by what's in your pants when you're born, or whether you have a Y chromosome. At this point, I'm fairly certain that that isn't the case.

Generally speaking that IS exactly the case. There are sex selection abortions and they are determined by genitalia. Doctors for millennia have looked between the legs to declare the "it's a boy" or "it's a girl" declaration. All other situations are anomalies. This is a biological fact.

 

[Locutus]

Well, the one trans person I know is probably going to grow up, be happy, and do remarkable things, in a good way. At least in her case, I'd hardly compare gender nonconformity to mental illness.

Fair enough. My position is that it is indeed mental illness..

If I had a son who showed signs of gender confusion, I would not pander to it or encourage it in any way. As with any aberrant behaviour, I would seek to reduce or eliminate it, in the interests of easing the child's passage through life.

 

[The Cadet]

If I had a son who showed signs of gender confusion, I would not pander to it or encourage it in any way. As with any aberrant behaviour, I would seek to reduce or eliminate it, in the interests of easing the child's passage through life.

Hey, I'm not about to disagree with half of this. If we could find a way to "fix" gender dysphoria, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that most people suffering from it would probably be pretty happy about it. Just a quick question though... If we found a way to fix it in the other direction (say, someone actually invents the Girdle of Gender Inversion from D&D), would you be just as happy for them?

 

[Locutus]

Hey, I'm not about to disagree with half of this. If we could find a way to "fix" gender dysphoria, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that most people suffering from it would probably be pretty happy about it. Just a quick question though... If we found a way to fix it in the other direction (say, someone actually invents the Girdle of Gender Inversion from D&D), would you be just as happy for them?

Sorry, no idea what the Girdle of Gender inversion is

 

[durangodawood]

Fair enough. My position is that it is indeed mental illness..

If I had a son who showed signs of gender confusion, I would not pander to it or encourage it in any way. As with any aberrant behaviour, I would seek to reduce or eliminate it, in the interests of easing the child's passage through life.

You say that as if you know how it would be for the child who's denied her preferred gender expression.

In the instance I know of, all manner of really awful behavioral problems 'magically' cleared up when she could finally 'come out'. Of course, it wasnt magic at all.

"Aberrant" is just another word for statistically non-majority. It doesnt mean 'wrong'. I do wonder whats more difficult: being false to yourself to conform to social norms, or facing social backlash for being true to yourself?

 

[The Cadet]

Sorry, no idea what the Girdle of Gender inversion is

It's a magic item that, barring advanced anti-curse magic, permanently changes your character's sex. You put it on a man, and poof, you're a woman.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Nature is the one that defines who is a man or woman. Not pretentious activists, pseudo-science, or emotional manipulating sob story propaganda.

Okay, then is a person with AIS a man or a woman?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Locutus]

You say that as if you know how it would be for the child who's denied her preferred gender expression.

In the instance I know of, all manner of really awful behavioral problems 'magically' cleared up when she could finally 'come out'. Of course, it wasnt magic at all.

"Aberrant" is just another word for statistically non-majority. It doesnt mean 'wrong'. I do wonder whats more difficult: being false to yourself to conform to social norms, or facing social backlash for being true to yourself?

I mean aberrant in the clinical sense. I take no position on the 'wrong/right'. No moral posturings involved here.

And naturally I have no real idea of what it would be for the person suffering. Just as I have no real idea of what the schizoid experiences when they imagine the things they imagine. But I can be trained to treat him/her, in a manner which acknowledges, but doesn't pander to, the delusions themselves.

As regards the person experiencing an 'improvement' in behaviour, that isn't particularly noteworthy. The internet addicted teen will act out the frustration of computer bans, then be positively delightful when privileges are restored.

 

[Locutus]

It's a magic item that, barring advanced anti-curse magic, permanently changes your character's sex. You put it on a man, and poof, you're a woman.

Okay, but what do you mean by 'would you be happy'? Happy to have a 'cure' for gender confusion? If that's the question, then I'd have to say yes. Just as I'd like to see a 'cure' for schizophrenia. Not because I have some moral objection to schizophrenia - but because the sufferer has such a difficult journey.

 

[The Cadet]

Okay, but what do you mean by 'would you be happy'? Happy to have a 'cure' for gender confusion? If that's the question, then I'd have to say yes. Just as I'd like to see a 'cure' for schizophrenia. Not because I have some moral objection to schizophrenia - but because the sufferer has such a difficult journey.

I'm mostly just wondering if you'd be okay if we cure this in both ways.

See, this is the thing with gender dysphoria - we can't currently do anything to resolve it on the gender side. It has to do with brain structure, and we don't have a good answer for that yet. So all of our progress thus far has been on the sex side, with quite a bit of success.

 

[super animator]

Neurology is weird.

 

[ScottA]

This one is targeted at those who think there is no meaningful distinction between sex, gender identity, and gender expression (á la this convenient graphic).

What characteristic determines whether someone is a man or a woman?

The world is not a place of personal discovery and expression, to do what one thinks is best. But rather, it is the expression of the One who created it. As such, the only personal part we have, is in finding just where we fit in...or not.

We have all walked into a room or house, or sat down in a new car, and said, "This is so, me!" As well, we have also done the opposite, and been repelled by things the same way. Likewise, we either find a fit in the natural world, but not the spiritual world, or we feel like aliens in the world, and at home with the promise of something beyond, something greater.

Apply that to gender...and the world has a natural order...or not. The natural order, is that there are millions of [demon]strations of gender and its purpose as designed by their Creator. Are there exceptions? Oh yes! But the exceptions are not the rule...nor do the exception tell us anything of value - tangents rarely do. The "rule" in this case, is that God has established a male/female relationship...to show us what He has in store for [not us, but] Himself. Even to the point of giving leadership rolls to men (representing Him), and telling women to be silent (as we would be wise to do...as representing mankind).

 

[FireDragon76]

Appeals to natural order are silly in this discussion. Given that God is so transcendent and above human cognition, how do we not know its God's will that certain people are born with a sense of being the opposite sex?