Is Gender Identity a modern social construct?

[sjastro]

The reason I have placed this in a science forum is the evidence from Egyptology which is a science/humanity hybrid field of study, statues of the 18th dynasty pharaoh Akhenaton who was the father of Tutankhamen is represented in a feminine form with breasts and wide hips and in some cases appears to pregnant.

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Akhenaton's claim to fame is being the first individual in history attested by archaeology as a monotheist (OT individuals don't count as none have been attested).

Interpretations of these statues fall in three broad categories.
(a) Akhenaton had some medical disorder, maybe was an intersexual.
(b) A disgusting evil pervert (unfortunately a POV expressed in modern day circles).
(c) The statues indicate the ancient Egyptians differentiated between one's biological sex and gender identity which therefore contradicts the idea of gender identity being a modern construct.

I posed point (c) to the Egyptologist Dr Chris Naunton who responded as follows.

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ChatGPT4 on the other hand gave a different response.

The short answer is: Yes — the feminine traits in Akhenaten’s depictions suggest a deliberate blur between biological sex and political/religious gender, not simply a literal portrayal of his anatomy.

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1. Medical/biological theories​

• Some scholars, like Irwin Braverman (Yale), have argued these feminine traits might reflect genetic conditions — e.g., aromatase excess syndrome (leading to breast tissue), or craniosynostosis (elongated skull), possibly even Marfan or Klinefelter syndromes (medicine.yale.edu).
• However, attempts to confirm these theories through genetics, including a 2010 study, failed to support them .
• Many Egyptologists now think it’s unlikely Akhenaten actually had such a medical condition (en.wikipedia.org).

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2. Symbolic/gendered religious expression​

• Another dominant view is that Akhenaten’s androgynous portrayal was symbolic — reflecting the theology of Aten, which portrayed the sun disc as both “father and mother of all humankind.” Thus, he was shown with feminine and masculine traits to visually embody that union (glam.ox.ac.uk).
• Amarna art broke previous norms not only in style but in gender imagery: Akhenaten appears with wide hips, breasts, a rounded stomach, long-limbed figure — in stark contrast to the muscular ideal of earlier pharaoh portrayals (en.wikipedia.org).
• Scholars of gender in ancient Egypt discuss how this is a deliberate androgyny, meaning sex (biological characteristics) and gender (social/religious identity) were distinct and could be articulated differently .

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✨ What this tells us about gender/sex perception in ancient Egypt​

Yes — the evidence strongly implies that the ancient Egyptians understood gender as socially and symbolically constructed, separate from merely physical/biological sex. Akhenaten’s unique portrayal shows they were willing to fuse and recombine male and female traits in visual media for powerful ideological purposes, rather than just record anatomy.

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Summary​

Theory	Explains Feminine Traits?	Widely Accepted?
Genetic disorder	Possibly reproductive traits, skull shape	Less favored
Symbolic/ideological art	Embodies theological union of male–female divine	More favored

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✅ Final Take​

Akhenaten’s portrayals offer compelling early evidence that gender can be fluid and distinct from physical sex, especially in a high-profile ideological system with religious undertones. It’s an example of ancient visual culture blending gender expressions to convey divine meaning — not merely picturing what he “really looked like.”

 

[Bradskii]

I thought that this was common knowledge. Not specifically about the Egyptians. But about any society throughout the ages.

 

[AV1611VET]

Wow ... a STATUE of a man with feminine qualities.

Whodathunkit?

Isn't artwork supposed to reflect how the artist sees the subject?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

The reason I have placed this in a science forum is the evidence from Egyptology which is a science/humanity hybrid field of study, statues of the 18th dynasty pharaoh Akhenaton who was the father of Tutankhamen is represented in a feminine form with breasts and wide hips and in some cases appears to pregnant.

View attachment 366743
​

Akhenaton's claim to fame is being the first individual in history attested by archaeology as a monotheist (OT individuals don't count as none have been attested).

Interpretations of these statues fall in three broad categories.
(a) Akhenaton had some medical disorder, maybe was an intersexual.
(b) A disgusting evil pervert (unfortunately a POV expressed in modern day circles).
(c) The statues indicate the ancient Egyptians differentiated between one's biological sex and gender identity which therefore contradicts the idea of gender identity being a modern construct.

I posed point (c) to the Egyptologist Dr Chris Naunton who responded as follows.

View attachment 366745

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

ChatGPT4 on the other hand gave a different response.

Ehh..I think it was just the artistic style of the time. Amarna art depicted the royal family with exaggerated features, purely artistic and symbolic and intended to reflect Akhenaten's religious beliefs. The Aten was considered a singular, all-encompassing force,embodying both male and female.
Even in this relief, the child has the same artistic license.

 

[sjastro]

I thought that this was common knowledge. Not specifically about the Egyptians. But about any society throughout the ages.

Unfortunately these days with the politicization of everything from science to the naming of cats, it wouldn't surprise me if most opponents of gender identity see it as an example of left wing, liberal (using the American not the Australian interpretation) ideology.

 

[NBB]

There were always 'weird' people, but their numbers were very small, also society in general disapproved those ideas, today you can't watch youtube or TV without some of that ideology popping up, in the 80 and 90, the idea didn't even crossed our minds, there were 0 zero 'trans' teenagers in my city/country adult transvestites existed but were looked down and they were very few, today they want to shove that ideology to everyone including children. Why you think trans teenager exploded in numbers exponentially, is the positive exposure in media, and schools.

 

[sjastro]

A word of warning from an expert on Egyptology.

My response being.

Chris,

I agree.

My field is in the physical sciences and mathematics and I have monitored the progress of LLMs over the last 18 months where there has been phenomenal improvement in these areas, but is still prone to error.
What I have noticed is an LLM response can depend on how the input is framed. I can ask an LLM to evaluate a comment where on most occasions it accurately responds with the pros and cons, if however the LLM is asked to verify the comment it assumes the comment is 100% accurate in which case it only highlights the pros.
As a result I use LLMs in a more secretarial function such as expressing my ideas in a table format which is carefully proofread beforehand when posting on a website .

Regards

Steven

 

[BCP1928]

There were always 'weird' people, but their numbers were very small, also society in general disapproved those ideas, today you can't watch youtube or TV without some of that ideology popping up, in the 80 and 90, the idea didn't even crossed our minds, there were 0 zero 'trans' teenagers in my city/country adult transvestites existed but were looked down and they were very few, today they want to shove that ideology to everyone including children. Why you think trans teenager exploded in numbers exponentially, is the positive exposure in media, and schools.

There were always "weird people" but now they are out of the closet it just seems like there are more.

 

[Bradskii]

There were always 'weird' people, but their numbers were very small, also society in general disapproved those ideas, today you can't watch youtube or TV without some of that ideology popping up, in the 80 and 90, the idea didn't even crossed our minds, there were 0 zero 'trans' teenagers in my city/country adult transvestites existed but were looked down and they were very few, today they want to shove that ideology to everyone including children. Why you think trans teenager exploded in numbers exponentially, is the positive exposure in media, and schools.

Same reason there now appears to be more gay people. There aren't, obviously. But Pete and Doug might have been 'housemates' not so long ago. Now Pete has no problem introducing Doug as his partner. Gosh!

 

[NBB]

Same reason there now appears to be more gay people. There aren't, obviously. But Pete and Doug might have been 'housemates' not so long ago. Now Pete has no problem introducing Doug as his partner. Gosh!

I don't think is a out of the closet situation, no way, its like is 'cool' now so people get into that more often.
Not everything is progress, with what they are doing with teenager and kids, i would believe if society comes to horrify about and regret this in the future

 

[Bradskii]

I don't think is a out of the closet situation, no way, its like is 'cool' now so people get into that more often.

And..? If I had a teenage son or daughter that considered themself to be a different gender to their biological sex then there'd be a lot of discussion as to how we'd deal with it. Maybe it might be a passing phase. But I'd be mighty greatful that we could discuss it openly with the support and understanding of family, friends, teachers and expert medical practitioners. As opposed to me finding them swinging from a rafter in the garage when I get home because people were saying it was perverted and that he or she was mentally ill.

But maybe that's just me.

 

[HBP]

Certainly, people since ancient times have recognized the existence of genetic and physical abnormalities and that masculinity and femininity occur along a sliding scale, with some males being markedly more feminine than others and some females being markedly more masculine than others. But, yes, I believe that the concept of gender identity is indeed a modern development (meaning within my lifetime), if by gender identify we mean people who are biologically one sex being able to choose to pretend to be another sex. It and its acceptance within society is evidence to me of almost a mass psychosis and perhaps even something more "theological."

 

[Hans Blaster]

Certainly, people since ancient times have recognized the existence of genetic and physical abnormalities and that masculinity and femininity occur along a sliding scale, with some males being markedly more feminine than others and some females being markedly more masculine than others. But, yes, I believe that the concept of gender identity is indeed a modern development (meaning within my lifetime), if by gender identify we mean people who are biologically one sex being able to choose to pretend to be another sex. It and its acceptance within society is evidence to me of almost a mass psychosis and perhaps even something more "theological."

Not addressing your "Christian gender ideology" claims, I can demonstrate the "in your lifetime" claim is false with a single Quaker preacher:

Public Universal Friend - Wikipedia

 

[BCP1928]

Certainly, people since ancient times have recognized the existence of genetic and physical abnormalities and that masculinity and femininity occur along a sliding scale, with some males being markedly more feminine than others and some females being markedly more masculine than others. But, yes, I believe that the concept of gender identity is indeed a modern development (meaning within my lifetime), if by gender identify we mean people who are biologically one sex being able to choose to pretend to be another sex. It and its acceptance within society is evidence to me of almost a mass psychosis and perhaps even something more "theological."

Does it really take "mass psychosis" to tolerate somebody pretending?

 

[Bradskii]

Certainly, people since ancient times have recognized the existence of genetic and physical abnormalities and that masculinity and femininity occur along a sliding scale, with some males being markedly more feminine than others and some females being markedly more masculine than others. But, yes, I believe that the concept of gender identity is indeed a modern development (meaning within my lifetime), if by gender identify we mean people who are biologically one sex being able to choose to pretend to be another sex. It and its acceptance within society is evidence to me of almost a mass psychosis and perhaps even something more "theological."

I don't get it. You say that gender has been a variable on a sliding scale since...for ever. Then say it's a modern development. Pick a lane why don't you...

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Unfortunately these days with the politicization of everything from science to the naming of cats, it wouldn't surprise me if most opponents of gender identity see it as an example of left wing, liberal (using the American not the Australian interpretation) ideology.

Like the issue of gender identity, the politicization of opposition also has a long, ancient history, albeit a shorter ancient history. It's this opposition that is probably one smaller reason we find something like the Israelite "2nd Commandment."

Somewhere in the venerable, ancient "normativity" of gender fluidity, someone showed up to place a religious remonstrance against its commonality. However, just like today, people back then tended not to like hearing a message which goes against the prevailing common sensibilities.