First, welcome to Christian Forums. There's a wide variety of Christians here, and also a wide variety of topics. Some are less controversial than this one, such as my post today: Christmas Should Change How We Relate to One Another.
You ask some good questions and raise some good issues:
Well, I don't think "eternal torment" is impossible in terms of God lacking power to torment the unrighteous forever if that was just. I used to believe in eternal torment. But after MUCH Bible study on this topic, I've become convinced that the Bible teaches Conditional Immortality. I believe the unrighteous will perish (John 3:16), that God will destroy both their bodies and souls in hell (Matthew 10:28), and that they will be burned to ashes (2 Peter 2:6).
I believe there will indeed be weeping and gnashing of teeth. However, I do not believe the weeping and gnashing of teeth will continue forever. I believe the unrighteous will eventually be burned to ashes, as taught in the Bible:
Downburned and Ashified: The Annihilation of the Unrighteous
The story of the rich man and Lazarus does not prove eternal torment for several reasons:
1. It's difficult to know if this is a parable or a report of an actual situation
2. Even if it is a description of an actual situation, some elements are clearly symbolic (being in Abraham's bosom)
3. If it's a description of an actual situation, it is describing the intermediate state, not the final state, of the unrighteous
4. Nowhere does it state that the agony lasts forever
In Matthew 13 the tares are taken away to be burned.
"burned in the fire"
The point was this:These are about dying the first type of death - as in Adam all die - -but those alive at the time of return of Christ and at the end of the world.
The worm -located in hell fire seems to be linked to the soul of a person.
A person that has died by then the second death as to the body.
In Matthew 13 the tares are taken away to be burned.
"burned in the fire"
First of all.....I am not asserting that there's no need for concern over lawlessness.Specific Priority? Justice is an attribute of God. Judgment follows. Judgment is probably the main topic preached by Christ. So the Rich Man had no need to worry about his lawlessness? He could just live as he pleased without real consequences? Universal restoration/reconciliation isn't "living as you please"---it's trusting in God's power of love to actually change people while still maintaining their own free will.
Exodus 34:6-7
Ezekiel 18:20-24
2 Thessalonians 1:5-12
Revelation 2:11
Revelation 20:6
Revelation 20:14
Revelation 21:8
It is amazing to me how, if everlasting Hell-fire is truly so abhorrent and counter-evangelistic to a lost world (as many are claiming), that early American Christians managed to evangelize and christianize an entire continent while preaching the same. MMm....very puzzling indeed.
I haven't seen any posts that actually answer Clement's questions."So how do you explain to your children about God's love? Do you tell them the truth that you love your children more than God does and you would never harm your children even if they don't love you?"
"There has to come a time when you tell them the truth, don't you think?"
"This is not sarcasm. It is letting those who believe in eternal torment come to grips with their beliefs. If they are honest with themselves they have to tell their children these things.
Thank you for mentioning that. It is the one place where we have the same word which means the same thing but different results.That is quite right. The Greek word "αἰώνιος", does not necessarily mean "eternal", as it was used for the early rulers, who were said to "live forever", which we know does not mean "eternally"!
I do believe that it is used for both the "righteous" and "unrighteous" in Matthew 25:46, where they both mean "eternal, without end", with no difference.
God never and will never retract a promise. It is not God who condemns the person who rejects His Son Jesus Christ.I haven't seen any posts that actually answer Clement's questions.
Doesn't this make human parents more forgiving and merciful than God? Or......is there a subtle threat looming over these children that they need to accept their parent's love or else it will eventually be retracted (maybe like at the "age of consent" or something)?
There may not be a specific instant where Jesus or the disciples warned nonbelievers but Jesus did say,I think you're misunderstanding my question.
You'd claimed earlier that (something like) it's the loving thing to do for us to warn others of their "impending doom of a yawing pit" that's awaiting them.....but I don't have any recollection of any of the disciples (or even Jesus) doing that (giving warnings like a person on a street corner holding a sign that says something like, "Repent or Burn Forever").
Can you provide me with even one example....of an actual event or occurrence where this happened? In that list of verses....the only thing close was the 2nd Thess passage, but that was speaking to the church (believers). I mean an actual account/example of any of the disciples or Jesus saying something like this to a crowd or an individual:
But those who believe in ET believe that it IS God who torments and tortures them (or, at least, created that system of "justice").It is not God who condemns the person who rejects His Son Jesus Christ.
We still have to form our ideas of love from God, though (as He is Love). So....whatever is true about what we believe about God's love is going to be true about our human model of it.I'm sure the fictitious parents would not allow their children to burn down the house, murder them and then dance on the ashes. Let's be real here as the OP parents are based on a false premise. The human parents example of God is flawed.
Fr Richard Rohr said:Your image of God creates you. This is why it is so important that we see God as loving and benevolent and why good theology is still important.
One mistaken image of God that keeps us from receiving grace is the idea that God is a cruel tyrant. People who have been raised in an atmosphere of threats of punishment and promises of reward are programmed to operate with this cheap image of God. They need deep healing, because they are actually attached to a punitive notion of God. Many experienced this foundational frame for reality as children, and it is hard to let go. It gives a kind of sick coherence to their world.
Unfortunately, it’s much easier to organize people around fear and hatred than around love. Most people who want to hold onto power view God as vindictive and punitive. Powerful people actually prefer this worldview, because it validates their use of intimidation. Both Catholicism and Protestantism have used the threat of eternal hellfire to form Christians. I am often struck by the irrational anger of many people when they hear that someone does not believe in hell. Threat of hellfire “works” because it appeals to the lowest level of consciousness, where we all start.
Much of Christian history has manifested a very different god than the one Jesus revealed and represented. Jesus tells us to love our enemies, but this “cultural” god sure doesn’t. Jesus tells us to forgive “seventy times seven” times, but this god doesn’t. Instead, this god burns people for all eternity. Many of us were raised to believe this, but we usually had to repress this bad theology into our unconscious because it’s literally unthinkable. Most humans are more loving and forgiving than such a god. We’ve developed an unworkable and toxic image of God that a healthy person would never trust. The mystical, transformative journey cannot take place until that image is undone. Why would you want to spend even an hour in silence, solitude, or intimacy with such a god?
It seems to me that in Matthew 25, when Jesus appears to make threats of “eternal punishment,” he is making strong contrasting statements about issues of ultimate significance, calling the listener to a decision. The trouble with this passage is that we focus on the threat more than on Jesus’ positive promise of “eternal life.” Jesus presents the teaching first in a dualistic manner. When pressed, he explains it in a non-dual way that encourages universal compassion: “Whatever you did for one of these least brothers [and sisters] of mine, you did for me” (Matthew 25:40). Non-dual thinkers can see that he is creating a moral equivalence between what we do to the least of the brothers and sisters and what we do to Christ. So Matthew 25 is supreme dualism overcome by supreme non-dualism. That is what we need. First do your clearheaded, rational, logical study of all sides of the issue of concern. Then you will see that the issue deserves much more subtlety than taking one side and damning all others. Non-dual thinking allows us to calmly hear, calmly detach, and calmly see from a higher level.~https://cac.org/a-toxic-image-of-god-2016-01-28/
There's a problem I can see with using this verse as an example: it goes on to say this....• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
Jesus said said:For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
Jesus said:The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
I agree with this article:
How about these children?I haven't seen any posts that actually answer Clement's questions.
Doesn't this make human parents more forgiving and merciful than God? Or......is there a subtle threat looming over these children that they need to accept their parent's love or else it will eventually be retracted (maybe like at the "age of consent" or something)?
If we're going to use Matthew 25 as the basis for being sheep or goats....then wouldn't someone like Abraham J. Heschel be in the group of "goats" that took care of "the least of these"?
--------->Abraham Joshua Heschel (1907-1972), a descendant of two important dynasties, was born in Warsaw. After receiving a thorough Jewish education in Poland, Heschel entered the University of Berlin, where in 1934 he received his doctorate for a study of the biblical prophets… . In 1937 Heschel became Martin Buber’s successor at the Judisches Lehrhaus in Frankfort and head of adult Jewish education in Germany, but the following year, he and other Polish Jews were deported by the Nazis.
[Martin Buber (1878-1965) was a German-Jewish social and religious philosopher. The Frankfurt Lehrhaus, an experimental center for adult Jewish education, aimed to teach marginal, acculturated Jews about Judaism. Ed.]
After stays in Warsaw and London, in 1940 he came to the United States to teach at the Hebrew Union College. In 1945 Heschel became Professor of Ethics and Mysticism at the Jewish Theological Seminary in New York and began to publish a series of works, ranging from studies on the piety of East European Jewry and the inward character of Jewish observance, to religious symbolism, Jewish views of humanity, and contemporary moral and political issues. Before his untimely death, Heschel had become highly respected among American religionists of many faiths not only for his writings but also for his active role in the civil rights and peace movements of the 1960s and in the Jewish-Christian dialogue.~Abraham Joshua Heschel: A Prophet's Prophet | My Jewish Learning
.....but based on the theology of a lot of people, he'd be tortured eternally for not having "the right theology".