how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

[TheBibleIsTruth]

--------->Jesus quotes Isaiah 66:24 and refers to gehenna as the place where “their worm does not die.” Critics of conditionalism often misquote or misunderstand the idiom as depicting a consuming maggot that eternally feeds upon but never fully consumes its host, and I had explained that quite the opposite is true. Similar to the scavengers of Deuteronomy 28:26 and Jeremiah 7:33 which will not be frightened away and prevented from fully consuming carrion, the worm “will not be prevented by death from fully consuming dead [bodies] … their shame is made permanent and everlasting by being fully consumed.”1

Of course this image is only the first of two which Isaiah and Jesus use to paint their horrifying picture of final punishment. Just as the worm will not die, they promise that “the fire is not quenched,” an idiom that appears in a very similar form just a few verses before Christ’s appeal to Isaiah when he calls gehenna “the unquenchable fire” (Mark 9:43). Elsewhere John the Baptist says that God “will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12 and Luke 3:17). Traditionalists typically understand these phrases to mean that the fire will never go out, implying that its fuel—the unredeemed—will exist eternally, being burned forever, yet never completely consumed. But as we’ll see, this idiom is as misunderstood as its abhorrent parallel.


Neither Isaiah 66:24 nor Mark 9:48 say that the worm will “never” die. If we were to consistently take “will not die” to mean “will never die,” we would make a mess of Scripture. Joseph tells his brothers in Genesis 42:20, “Bring your youngest brother to me, so your words may be verified, and you will not die.” The Lord directs Moses in Exodus 30:20, “When they enter the tent of meeting, they shall wash with water, so that they will not die.” Zedekiah says to Jeremiah in Jeremiah 38:24, “Let no man know about these words and you will not die.” Obviously Joseph’s brothers did not think he was promising them immortality; Moses was not assured that by washing with water when entering the tent the priests would never die; Jeremiah did not take Zedekiah to mean he would live forever by remaining silent.

But we should probably give the traditionalist authors I quoted earlier the benefit of the doubt; perhaps their use of words like “never” and “eternity” is not misquotation, or a mere assumption that “will not die” means “will never die.” Perhaps, instead, they think this is the conclusion that is best drawn from the idiomatic worm’s assumed contrast with a worm which normally would die.
~http://www.rethinkinghell.com/2012/07/their-worm-does-not-die-annihilation-and-mark-948/

In the first place, in both the Hebrew of Isaiah and the Greek of Mark, the personal pronoun "THEIR worm" is used, and not "THE worm". Its reference is not to the creeping animals, but to "humans", as when God refers to "Jacob you worm", etc (Isaiah 41:14). The language shows that the "human body" will not cease after death in hell. This brings me to the second point, which is the use of the negative "οὐ" in the Greek, and "לֹא" in the Hebrew, both used to show the "negative" in a remark. I think you are splitting hairs when you try to distinguish between "not" and "never", though there is a difference in language, yet, Biblically and contextually, it is used to speak of the "duration" of the suffering of the unbelieving lost. Jesus uses "αἰώνιος" (without end, everlasting, eternal), for both the "saved" and "unsaved" in Matthew 25:46. While it is true that there are instances in Greek, where "αἰώνιος" is used for simply a "duration", without any indication of it being "endless", it is equally true that it is also used for "without end", which is exactly how Jesus intends it in the verse in Matthew, where both uses of "αἰώνιος" are identical. There is no doubt from the teaching of Jesus Himself on the final state of the unsaved, that it is "eternal and conscious suffering". As difficult this Doctrine is, it must not be watered down to mean anything less than what Jesus intended.

 

[Mark Corbett]

On the one hand, eternal torment does appear to be impossible to reconcile with both God's justice and God's love.
On the other hand, the Bible seems to be very clear that some will experience "eternal punishment".
Neither eternal conscious torment nor universalism seem capable of fitting all the Biblical evidence.
But choosing between eternal conscious torment and universalism is a false dichotomy. There is another option. I preached a two part sermon explaining it. Here's part 1:

 

[AACJ]

On the one hand, eternal torment does appear to be impossible to reconcile with both God's justice and God's love.
On the other hand, the Bible seems to be very clear that some will experience "eternal punishment".
Neither eternal conscious torment nor universalism seem capable of fitting all the Biblical evidence.
But choosing between eternal conscious torment and universalism is a false dichotomy. There is another option. I preached a two part sermon explaining it. Here's part 1:

Not going to watch your vid. You're an annihilationist? Then you effectively advocate for an alternative means of salvation outside of Christ. Annihilationism has begun it's slow death in this world. It will soon lose whatever supposed veracity or legitimacy it is has enjoyed up til now.

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

"O.K. so, how do you people who believe in eternal torture in fire, how do you tuck your children in at night and explain to them that God loves you but if you don't love Him He is going to torture you in fire, not for the length of your favorite video, not for the length of a day, not even for the length of a year but it will be unending. Mommy and Daddy will be in heaven while you writhe in unimaginable suffering because this is what God does to those who don't love Him."

"So how do you explain to your children about God's love? Do you tell them the truth that you love your children more than God does and you would never harm your children even if they don't love you?"

"There has to come a time when you tell them the truth, don't you think?"

"This is not sarcasm. It is letting those who believe in eternal torment come to grips with their beliefs. If they are honest with themselves they have to tell their children these things.
After all, we wouldn't want to sugar coat something so serious as a loving God torturing people for billions and billions and billions and billions of years without end, those who do not love Him, now would we?"

"And if your children only love Him to escape such a fate, what kind of hypocritical love is that?"

"As a child, camping out, I would ask my friends as we sat around the campfire and looking into it: "How can God burn people in fire for e--t--e--r--n--i--t--y?" No one would say a word. But it always bugged me. As I grew up and started visiting hell-fire churches, it was psychologically horrifying. It's like the people that attend those churches do so for the thrill of having the begeebies scared out of them. Kind of like thrill seekers. I was so glad to leave that behind and find out about God's love and plan for all mankind."

----------------


"Yep. People who say that they believe in Hell aren't remotely serious. If they were, they would be catatonic."

---------------

"I went through a phase where I strongly believed in ET. I lost my appetite (and thus a lot of weight) and was constantly anxious. It was terrible."


--------------


"That is indeed the seat of a LOT of mental health concerns many Christians who subscribe to it suffer; consequently, I can understand certain over-the-top reactions by some
supposed non-believers."


------------


"Basically Hell is a component in an intellectual construct that many people toy with in their minds. Nobody believes in Hell in the same way that I believe that I love my daughter,
that my mother loves me, that the sky is blue, etc."

Concerning 1 Timothy 4:10

------------------------------------------------



Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

There is no evidence in the teaching of the Bible, that the term "fire", which used for the eternal suffering of the unsaved wicked, in to be understood as "literal". That said, there is no doubt, especially from the teachings of Jesus, that the final state of the unsaved, is a place of "eternal torment", as the complete contrast of what heaven will be like for the saved.

 

[redleghunter]

"O.K. so, how do you people who believe in eternal torture in fire, how do you tuck your children in at night and explain to them that God loves you but if you don't love Him He is going to torture you in fire, not for the length of your favorite video, not for the length of a day, not even for the length of a year but it will be unending. Mommy and Daddy will be in heaven while you writhe in unimaginable suffering because this is what God does to those who don't love Him."

"So how do you explain to your children about God's love? Do you tell them the truth that you love your children more than God does and you would never harm your children even if they don't love you?"

"There has to come a time when you tell them the truth, don't you think?"

"This is not sarcasm. It is letting those who believe in eternal torment come to grips with their beliefs. If they are honest with themselves they have to tell their children these things.
After all, we wouldn't want to sugar coat something so serious as a loving God torturing people for billions and billions and billions and billions of years without end, those who do not love Him, now would we?"

"And if your children only love Him to escape such a fate, what kind of hypocritical love is that?"

"As a child, camping out, I would ask my friends as we sat around the campfire and looking into it: "How can God burn people in fire for e--t--e--r--n--i--t--y?" No one would say a word. But it always bugged me. As I grew up and started visiting hell-fire churches, it was psychologically horrifying. It's like the people that attend those churches do so for the thrill of having the begeebies scared out of them. Kind of like thrill seekers. I was so glad to leave that behind and find out about God's love and plan for all mankind."

----------------


"Yep. People who say that they believe in Hell aren't remotely serious. If they were, they would be catatonic."

---------------

"I went through a phase where I strongly believed in ET. I lost my appetite (and thus a lot of weight) and was constantly anxious. It was terrible."


--------------


"That is indeed the seat of a LOT of mental health concerns many Christians who subscribe to it suffer; consequently, I can understand certain over-the-top reactions by some
supposed non-believers."


------------


"Basically Hell is a component in an intellectual construct that many people toy with in their minds. Nobody believes in Hell in the same way that I believe that I love my daughter,
that my mother loves me, that the sky is blue, etc."

Concerning 1 Timothy 4:10

------------------------------------------------

“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom,
And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.(Proverbs 9:10)

Some versions have 'revere' instead of 'fear.'

What is it to revere or fear God?

God is Holy, Holy, Holy. The parents you mention in the OP should teach such. The children should know why God is Holy and that His standards are Holy. In other words, the children according to a child's understanding, should be 'dragged' up Mt Sinai (the Law) to introduce them to their Holy Creator. Then present to them the Love God has by giving us Mt Zion (Grace).

Now I believe your OP is based on a false premise. The reason God judges and punishes is due to people rejecting His Most Beloved Son Jesus Christ in Whom He is well pleased. It's that all of us have no excuse of the Holy standards of God. The souls who are damned to everlasting fire consciously refused Mt Zion (Grace).

And if we do not tell our children the story of Creation, the Fall and Redemption, we end up with blood on our hands.

Ezekiel 33 New King James Version (NKJV)

33 Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 2 “Son of man, speak to the children of your people, and say to them: ‘When I bring the sword upon a land, and the people of the land take a man from their territory and make him their watchman, 3 when he sees the sword coming upon the land, if he blows the trumpet and warns the people, 4 then whoever hears the sound of the trumpet and does not take warning, if the sword comes and takes him away, his blood shall be on his own head.

5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, but did not take warning; his blood shall be upon himself. But he who takes warning will save his life. 6 But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and the sword comes and takes any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at the watchman’s hand.’

7 “So you, son of man: I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; therefore you shall hear a word from My mouth and warn them for Me. 8 When I say to the wicked, ‘O wicked man, you shall surely die!’ and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. 9 Nevertheless if you warn the wicked to turn from his way, and he does not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.

10 “Therefore you, O son of man, say to the house of Israel: ‘Thus you say, “If our transgressions and our sins lie upon us, and we pine away in them, how can we then live?”’ 11 Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’

And of course later in the chapter, and which your OP position should take note, God says thus:

17 “Yet the children of your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ But it is their way which is not fair! 18 When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die because of it. 19 But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and does what is lawful and right, he shall live because of it. 20 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, I will judge every one of you according to his own ways.”

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

On the one hand, eternal torment does appear to be impossible to reconcile with both God's justice and God's love.
On the other hand, the Bible seems to be very clear that some will experience "eternal punishment".
Neither eternal conscious torment nor universalism seem capable of fitting all the Biblical evidence.
But choosing between eternal conscious torment and universalism is a false dichotomy. There is another option. I preached a two part sermon explaining it. Here's part 1:

What makes you think that "eternal torment" for the lost is "impossible"? Jesus Himself describes hell as being a place where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 13:42), which is hardly used to describe anything but "torment". In fact, that Greek "κλαυθμός" is stronger than "weeping", which is brought out from the second word, "βρυγμός", which denotes, "extreme anguish", with the pain causing the teeth to grind. Very strong language of the agony of the lost in hell. In Luke 16:23 we read of the Rich Man, who complains of being "in torments", where again the Greek is much stronger, "βάσανος", which means, "torture, torment, acute pains", and was used for "the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth".

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Mark Corbett]

Not going to watch your vid.

Of course, you don't have to watch my vid. But based on your comment, if you did watch the video, I think you would gain a better understanding of what annihilationists like myself believe, even if you still disagreed with me.

Then you effectively advocate for an alternative means of salvation outside of Christ.

I've debated many people about annihilationism. Your particular accusation is a new one, at least as far as I remember. Would you mind explaining how annihilationism advocates for an alternative means of salvation outside of Christ? This comment seems to say more about your understanding of annihilationism than it does about my beliefs.

Annihilationism has begun it's slow death in this world. It will soon lose whatever supposed veracity or legitimacy it is has enjoyed up til now.

I don't know if belief in annihilationism (also called Conditional Immortality) will grow or shrink. Truth is not determined by popularity of an idea. Nevertheless, in my experience both opponents and proponents of Conditional Immortality see this view as growing rapidly, especially among evangelicals, over the last 20 years.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Doug Melven]

....or some of us don't break laws because we "treat people the same way we want them to treat us". It's because of our empathy we don't harm others (not fear of punishment).

Most people obey a law because they don;t want to be punished.
Or they will break a law and try to hide from others what they did. That's what I did, I kept on breaking the law thinking nobody knew what I was doing right up till the time the police came to my door and took me to jail.

Personally.....I don't think procrastination has *anything* to do with it.

I think you're saying what I am: that a person is "putting off" their belief not because they're procrastinating.....they're putting it off because they simply can't believe in what's been presented to them (which isn't really "procrastination").

Procrastination has everything to do with it.
People always think I can make a decision tomorrow. Or I will do it later when I have time.
Lost people are comfortable in there sin. Most people fear change. And becoming a Christian can be a life changer.
And then these UR people come along and say, "You don't have to make a decision in this life, you can wait till the next life. God loves you and won't send you to hell.
This sounds like a Satanic lie to me.

 

[redleghunter]

Here is some of what Jesus had to say about hell.

Matthew 13:41-42, 49-50 “The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Mark 9:43, 48-49 “And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire…where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’ For everyone will be salted with fire.”

Matthew 22:13 “Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Matthew 8:12 “while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Matthew 25:46 “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Luke 16:23 “being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.”

Luke 12:5 “But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!”

Now wait for the replies where 'eternal' does not really mean 'eternal.'

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

The devils knew it was a place of torment/destroy and did not want to go there. Now, the lake of fire would have to created first for them to be put in it. - it is called - furnace of fire

Matthew 13:42

“And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

King James Version (KJV)

What point are you making here? This still does not show that "fire" when used for hell, is literal.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Mark Corbett]

First, welcome to Christian Forums. There's a wide variety of Christians here, and also a wide variety of topics. Some are less controversial than this one, such as my post today: Christmas Should Change How We Relate to One Another.

You ask some good questions and raise some good issues:

What makes you think that "eternal torment" for the lost is "impossible"?

Well, I don't think "eternal torment" is impossible in terms of God lacking power to torment the unrighteous forever if that was just. I used to believe in eternal torment. But after MUCH Bible study on this topic, I've become convinced that the Bible teaches Conditional Immortality. I believe the unrighteous will perish (John 3:16), that God will destroy both their bodies and souls in hell (Matthew 10:28), and that they will be burned to ashes (2 Peter 2:6).

Jesus Himself describes hell as being a place where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 13:42), which is hardly used to describe anything but "torment". In fact, that Greek "κλαυθμός" is stronger than "weeping", which is brought out from the second word, "βρυγμός", which denotes, "extreme anguish", with the pain causing the teeth to grind. Very strong language of the agony of the lost in hell.

I believe there will indeed be weeping and gnashing of teeth. However, I do not believe the weeping and gnashing of teeth will continue forever. I believe the unrighteous will eventually be burned to ashes, as taught in the Bible:

Downburned and Ashified: The Annihilation of the Unrighteous

In Luke 16:23 we read of the Rich Man, who complains of being "in torments", where again the Greek is much stronger, "βάσανος", which means, "torture, torment, acute pains", and was used for "the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth".

The story of the rich man and Lazarus does not prove eternal torment for several reasons:

1. It's difficult to know if this is a parable or a report of an actual situation
2. Even if it is a description of an actual situation, some elements are clearly symbolic (being in Abraham's bosom)
3. If it's a description of an actual situation, it is describing the intermediate state, not the final state, of the unrighteous
4. Nowhere does it state that the agony lasts forever

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

Now wait for the replies where 'eternal' does not really mean 'eternal.'

That is quite right. The Greek word "αἰώνιος", does not necessarily mean "eternal", as it was used for the early rulers, who were said to "live forever", which we know does not mean "eternally"!

I do believe that it is used for both the "righteous" and "unrighteous" in Matthew 25:46, where they both mean "eternal, without end", with no difference.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

It will have smoke. I think that the Bible only shown smoke as to either incense or fire.

sure, but can you show from any Scripture, that the term "fire" when used for hell, is literal? This cannot be ascertained from the word, but will be from "theology".

 

[Mark Corbett]

That is quite right. The Greek word "αἰώνιος", does not necessarily mean "eternal", as it was used for the early rulers, who were said to "live forever", which we know does not mean "eternally"!

I wrote a three part post (three different OPs) arguing that aionios actually does mean eternal:

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

 

[1213]

"O.K. so, how do you people who believe in eternal torture in fire, how do you tuck your children in at night and explain to them that God loves you but if you don't love Him He is going to torture you in fire, ..

Nice thing is that hell is not because person didn’t’ love, but because person is not righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

Also, Bible doesn’t say God will torture, it says God destroys.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell…..
Matt. 10:28