how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

First, welcome to Christian Forums. There's a wide variety of Christians here, and also a wide variety of topics. Some are less controversial than this one, such as my post today: Christmas Should Change How We Relate to One Another.

You ask some good questions and raise some good issues:


Well, I don't think "eternal torment" is impossible in terms of God lacking power to torment the unrighteous forever if that was just. I used to believe in eternal torment. But after MUCH Bible study on this topic, I've become convinced that the Bible teaches Conditional Immortality. I believe the unrighteous will perish (John 3:16), that God will destroy both their bodies and souls in hell (Matthew 10:28), and that they will be burned to ashes (2 Peter 2:6).



I believe there will indeed be weeping and gnashing of teeth. However, I do not believe the weeping and gnashing of teeth will continue forever. I believe the unrighteous will eventually be burned to ashes, as taught in the Bible:

Downburned and Ashified: The Annihilation of the Unrighteous

The story of the rich man and Lazarus does not prove eternal torment for several reasons:

1. It's difficult to know if this is a parable or a report of an actual situation
2. Even if it is a description of an actual situation, some elements are clearly symbolic (being in Abraham's bosom)
3. If it's a description of an actual situation, it is describing the intermediate state, not the final state, of the unrighteous
4. Nowhere does it state that the agony lasts forever

With regards to Matthew 10:28, I am yet to see any lexical use for the Greek "ἀπόλλυμι", which is translated as "destroy", to mean "annihilate", a term not used anywhere in the Bible for the unsaved.

You quote 2 Peter 2:6 where "ashes" is used. But, it does not say anything of "non-existence" for those so burned? Speaking of the same event, Jude says, "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after unnatural lust, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." (verse 7), where the present tense in the Greek shows that 1000's of years later, when Jude was writing, there were still "suffering"! This cannot mean that they ceased to exist, as the language does not allow for this!

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

In Matthew 13 the tares are taken away to be burned.

"burned in the fire"

Jesus is using an illustration of the "tares and wheat", again, not evidence to say those who will be "burned", are literally so. It is quite possible that the language is metaphorical.

 

[AACJ]

It is amazing to me how, if everlasting Hell-fire is truly so abhorrent and counter-evangelistic to a lost world (as many are claiming), that early American Christians managed to evangelize and christianize an entire continent while preaching the same. MMm....very puzzling indeed.

 

[mkgal1]

These are about dying the first type of death - as in Adam all die - -but those alive at the time of return of Christ and at the end of the world.

The worm -located in hell fire seems to be linked to the soul of a person.
A person that has died by then the second death as to the body.

The point was this:

"Obviously Joseph’s brothers did not think he was promising them immortality; Moses was not assured that by washing with water when entering the tent the priests would never die; Jeremiah did not take Zedekiah to mean he would live forever by remaining silent."

The presumption of taking "would not die" to mean "would NEVER die".

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

In Matthew 13 the tares are taken away to be burned.

"burned in the fire"

I might add here, that the strongest evidence from the New Testament, that the "fires of gehenna" cannot be literal, is the fact, that the majority of times "gehenna" is used in the New Testament, it is with regard to believers! For example Matthew 5:22, where it is used for those who are "brothers", which can hardly be for anyone who is unsaved! So for 99% of its use.

 

[mkgal1]

Specific Priority? Justice is an attribute of God. Judgment follows. Judgment is probably the main topic preached by Christ. So the Rich Man had no need to worry about his lawlessness? He could just live as he pleased without real consequences? Universal restoration/reconciliation isn't "living as you please"---it's trusting in God's power of love to actually change people while still maintaining their own free will.

Exodus 34:6-7

Ezekiel 18:20-24

2 Thessalonians 1:5-12

Revelation 2:11

Revelation 20:6

Revelation 20:14

Revelation 21:8

First of all.....I am not asserting that there's no need for concern over lawlessness.

I think you're misunderstanding my question.

You'd claimed earlier that (something like) it's the loving thing to do for us to warn others of their "impending doom of a yawing pit" that's awaiting them.....but I don't have any recollection of any of the disciples (or even Jesus) doing that (giving warnings like a person on a street corner holding a sign that says something like, "Repent or Burn Forever").

Can you provide me with even one example....of an actual event or occurrence where this happened? In that list of verses....the only thing close was the 2nd Thess passage, but that was speaking to the church (believers). I mean an actual account/example of any of the disciples or Jesus saying something like this to a crowd or an individual:

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

It is amazing to me how, if everlasting Hell-fire is truly so abhorrent and counter-evangelistic to a lost world (as many are claiming), that early American Christians managed to evangelize and christianize an entire continent while preaching the same. MMm....very puzzling indeed.

Surely the greater puzzle is the fact that the "flames" of these early Christians have almost gone out!

 

[mkgal1]

"So how do you explain to your children about God's love? Do you tell them the truth that you love your children more than God does and you would never harm your children even if they don't love you?"

"There has to come a time when you tell them the truth, don't you think?"

"This is not sarcasm. It is letting those who believe in eternal torment come to grips with their beliefs. If they are honest with themselves they have to tell their children these things.

I haven't seen any posts that actually answer Clement's questions.

Doesn't this make human parents more forgiving and merciful than God? Or......is there a subtle threat looming over these children that they need to accept their parent's love or else it will eventually be retracted (maybe like at the "age of consent" or something)?

 

[redleghunter]

That is quite right. The Greek word "αἰώνιος", does not necessarily mean "eternal", as it was used for the early rulers, who were said to "live forever", which we know does not mean "eternally"!

I do believe that it is used for both the "righteous" and "unrighteous" in Matthew 25:46, where they both mean "eternal, without end", with no difference.

Thank you for mentioning that. It is the one place where we have the same word which means the same thing but different results.

 

[redleghunter]

I haven't seen any posts that actually answer Clement's questions.

Doesn't this make human parents more forgiving and merciful than God? Or......is there a subtle threat looming over these children that they need to accept their parent's love or else it will eventually be retracted (maybe like at the "age of consent" or something)?

God never and will never retract a promise. It is not God who condemns the person who rejects His Son Jesus Christ.

I'm sure the fictitious parents would not allow their children to burn down the house, murder them and then dance on the ashes. Let's be real here as the OP parents are based on a false premise. The human parents example of God is flawed.

 

[Der Alte]

I think you're misunderstanding my question.
You'd claimed earlier that (something like) it's the loving thing to do for us to warn others of their "impending doom of a yawing pit" that's awaiting them.....but I don't have any recollection of any of the disciples (or even Jesus) doing that (giving warnings like a person on a street corner holding a sign that says something like, "Repent or Burn Forever").
Can you provide me with even one example....of an actual event or occurrence where this happened? In that list of verses....the only thing close was the 2nd Thess passage, but that was speaking to the church (believers). I mean an actual account/example of any of the disciples or Jesus saying something like this to a crowd or an individual:

There may not be a specific instant where Jesus or the disciples warned nonbelievers but Jesus did say,

Matthew 28:18-20
(18) And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
(19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
(20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.​

Here is some of those "all things"

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24​

 

[mkgal1]

It is not God who condemns the person who rejects His Son Jesus Christ.

But those who believe in ET believe that it IS God who torments and tortures them (or, at least, created that system of "justice").

I'm sure the fictitious parents would not allow their children to burn down the house, murder them and then dance on the ashes. Let's be real here as the OP parents are based on a false premise. The human parents example of God is flawed.

We still have to form our ideas of love from God, though (as He is Love). So....whatever is true about what we believe about God's love is going to be true about our human model of it.

I'm not thinking of those that are "wicked" (like you're describing) when this topic is raised. I actually think of the Atheists I know that haven't turned their backs on compassion and goodness......they've turned their backs on manipulators and the unfairness of some people being able to brag about how God answered their prayers to be cured of cancer while they (the Atheist) lost their only child.....the loving light of their world.....even after many sleepless nights begging God for their child to be healed. They see the suffering in this world and there's no good answer being offered to them as to "why". So....to make the claim that, because of their lack of belief in God, they are going to be tortured forever (and for them to continually hear that spoken of and towards them).....that--to me--only seems to further cement their disbelief (because it highlights the lack of compassion in a god like that).

 

[mkgal1]

I agree with this article:

Your image of God creates you. This is why it is so important that we see God as loving and benevolent and why good theology is still important.

One mistaken image of God that keeps us from receiving grace is the idea that God is a cruel tyrant. People who have been raised in an atmosphere of threats of punishment and promises of reward are programmed to operate with this cheap image of God. They need deep healing, because they are actually attached to a punitive notion of God. Many experienced this foundational frame for reality as children, and it is hard to let go. It gives a kind of sick coherence to their world.

Unfortunately, it’s much easier to organize people around fear and hatred than around love. Most people who want to hold onto power view God as vindictive and punitive. Powerful people actually prefer this worldview, because it validates their use of intimidation. Both Catholicism and Protestantism have used the threat of eternal hellfire to form Christians. I am often struck by the irrational anger of many people when they hear that someone does not believe in hell. Threat of hellfire “works” because it appeals to the lowest level of consciousness, where we all start.

Much of Christian history has manifested a very different god than the one Jesus revealed and represented. Jesus tells us to love our enemies, but this “cultural” god sure doesn’t. Jesus tells us to forgive “seventy times seven” times, but this god doesn’t. Instead, this god burns people for all eternity. Many of us were raised to believe this, but we usually had to repress this bad theology into our unconscious because it’s literally unthinkable. Most humans are more loving and forgiving than such a god. We’ve developed an unworkable and toxic image of God that a healthy person would never trust. The mystical, transformative journey cannot take place until that image is undone. Why would you want to spend even an hour in silence, solitude, or intimacy with such a god?

It seems to me that in Matthew 25, when Jesus appears to make threats of “eternal punishment,” he is making strong contrasting statements about issues of ultimate significance, calling the listener to a decision. The trouble with this passage is that we focus on the threat more than on Jesus’ positive promise of “eternal life.” Jesus presents the teaching first in a dualistic manner. When pressed, he explains it in a non-dual way that encourages universal compassion: “Whatever you did for one of these least brothers [and sisters] of mine, you did for me” (Matthew 25:40). Non-dual thinkers can see that he is creating a moral equivalence between what we do to the least of the brothers and sisters and what we do to Christ. So Matthew 25 is supreme dualism overcome by supreme non-dualism. That is what we need. First do your clearheaded, rational, logical study of all sides of the issue of concern. Then you will see that the issue deserves much more subtlety than taking one side and damning all others. Non-dual thinking allows us to calmly hear, calmly detach, and calmly see from a higher level.~https://cac.org/a-toxic-image-of-god-2016-01-28/

 

[RevCharlesG]

So, it sounds like you don't have a very firm grasp on GRACE....

not to be rude but I do believe that you are interpreting the bible wrong. the Grace story is not about what WE do wrong, its about not ever being able to obtain salvation outside of Christ. the best part is that grace is what saves us and keeps us saved. if you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart you are saved. its simple.

God isn't a bully with a big stick wanting to send people to hell. he wishes nobody would perish. hes not waiting around the corner just watching and hoping you screw up. if you walk in grace you walk in his forgivness.

so do I believe in eternal torment yes, but its not Gods will for that. infact he made it so easy all you have to do is believe. hes willing to forgive everything..everytime...I would encourage to listen to some of Joseph Prince teaching.

 

[mkgal1]

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41

There's a problem I can see with using this verse as an example: it goes on to say this....

For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

.....so why isn't *this* emphasized?

The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

 

[mkgal1]

If we're going to use Matthew 25 as the basis for being sheep or goats....then wouldn't someone like Abraham J. Heschel be in the group of "sheep" that took care of "the least of these"?


--------->Abraham Joshua Heschel (1907-1972), a descendant of two important dynasties, was born in Warsaw. After receiving a thorough Jewish education in Poland, Heschel entered the University of Berlin, where in 1934 he received his doctorate for a study of the biblical prophets… . In 1937 Heschel became Martin Buber’s successor at the Judisches Lehrhaus in Frankfort and head of adult Jewish education in Germany, but the following year, he and other Polish Jews were deported by the Nazis.

[Martin Buber (1878-1965) was a German-Jewish social and religious philosopher. The Frankfurt Lehrhaus, an experimental center for adult Jewish education, aimed to teach marginal, acculturated Jews about Judaism. Ed.]

After stays in Warsaw and London, in 1940 he came to the United States to teach at the Hebrew Union College. In 1945 Heschel became Professor of Ethics and Mysticism at the Jewish Theological Seminary in New York and began to publish a series of works, ranging from studies on the piety of East European Jewry and the inward character of Jewish observance, to religious symbolism, Jewish views of humanity, and contemporary moral and political issues. Before his untimely death, Heschel had become highly respected among American religionists of many faiths not only for his writings but also for his active role in the civil rights and peace movements of the 1960s and in the Jewish-Christian dialogue.

“To perform deeds of holiness is to absorb the holiness of deeds.” “A Jew is asked to take a leap of action rather than a leap of thought. He is asked to do more than he understands in order to understand more than he does.” Whereas the term ceremony merely expresses what we think, mitzvah expresses what God wills: a mitzvah [commandment/good deed] is “a prayer in the form of a deed.”

For Heschel, Jewish survival is a spiritual act. God’s concern with man is expressed in Judaism through the idea of a covenant imposing a mutual, correlative responsiveness on man and God both, because God needs man for the attainment of his ends in the world.

Heschel stands in that stream of modern Jewish thought which emphasizes the limitations of reason to grasp the full significance of the religious life.
~Abraham Joshua Heschel: A Prophet's Prophet | My Jewish Learning

.....but based on the theology of a lot of people, he'd be tortured eternally for not having "the right theology".

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

I agree with this article:

Sadly this article is biased against what the Holy Bible plainly teaches on the eternal state of the lost wicked. No amount of human softening to this Doctrine can detract from the fact, that the Bible does warn us time and again, to avoid going to hell. In fact, Jesus also told Judas who was to betray Him, that it would have been better for him, if he were never born (Matthew 26:24). These words would be quite pointless if Jesus knew (which He would have as God), that Judas, like all the others who are "lost", where not to be "punished" and would be annihilated at some time; or, that there "punishment" were only for a limited duration. Too much is made of the "love of God", to the extent that everything else is disregarded!

 

[Der Alte]

I haven't seen any posts that actually answer Clement's questions.
Doesn't this make human parents more forgiving and merciful than God? Or......is there a subtle threat looming over these children that they need to accept their parent's love or else it will eventually be retracted (maybe like at the "age of consent" or something)?

How about these children?

Genesis 7:21-23​

(21) And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
(22) All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
(23) And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
Genesis 19:24-25
(24) Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
(25) And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.​

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

If we're going to use Matthew 25 as the basis for being sheep or goats....then wouldn't someone like Abraham J. Heschel be in the group of "goats" that took care of "the least of these"?


--------->Abraham Joshua Heschel (1907-1972), a descendant of two important dynasties, was born in Warsaw. After receiving a thorough Jewish education in Poland, Heschel entered the University of Berlin, where in 1934 he received his doctorate for a study of the biblical prophets… . In 1937 Heschel became Martin Buber’s successor at the Judisches Lehrhaus in Frankfort and head of adult Jewish education in Germany, but the following year, he and other Polish Jews were deported by the Nazis.

[Martin Buber (1878-1965) was a German-Jewish social and religious philosopher. The Frankfurt Lehrhaus, an experimental center for adult Jewish education, aimed to teach marginal, acculturated Jews about Judaism. Ed.]

After stays in Warsaw and London, in 1940 he came to the United States to teach at the Hebrew Union College. In 1945 Heschel became Professor of Ethics and Mysticism at the Jewish Theological Seminary in New York and began to publish a series of works, ranging from studies on the piety of East European Jewry and the inward character of Jewish observance, to religious symbolism, Jewish views of humanity, and contemporary moral and political issues. Before his untimely death, Heschel had become highly respected among American religionists of many faiths not only for his writings but also for his active role in the civil rights and peace movements of the 1960s and in the Jewish-Christian dialogue.~Abraham Joshua Heschel: A Prophet's Prophet | My Jewish Learning

.....but based on the theology of a lot of people, he'd be tortured eternally for not having "the right theology".

I think that the main point is often missed, which is, that a person is condemned to eternal punishment, not because God so wills this, but for the fact that the sinner rejects the only possible way to enter heaven, which is through their repentance of their personal sins, and acceptance in the full Gospel of what Jesus Christ has done for lost sinners, and Who He is. All sinners are called upon to "repent and believe in the Gospel" (Mark 1:15), without which there can be no salvation or entrance into heaven. It is God's Why only that counts, and not some man-made "system"!