how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Would not believing in it make it go away? Is that how reality works? Curious wants to know.

 

[Der Alte]

There's a problem I can see with using this verse as an example: it goes on to say this....
.....so why isn't *this* emphasized?

That is the same problem I saw in your post, which I quoted, why wasn't the verses I posted emphasized?

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

If your house is on fire do you not tell the kids? Let them believe everything is a-o-k?

 

[Doug Melven]

I am one of those people who truly believe God is Love.
But, I also believe He is holy, holy, holy.
In Isaiah 6 and Revelation 4 the angels don't say "love, love, love". They say, "holy, holy, holy".
And for those who can't reconcile that God is love with Judgment should look at these Imprecatory Psalms.
Psalm 69, Psalm 109, Psalm 137
There are more, but not as bad as this.
137:9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

 

[mkgal1]

That is the same problem I saw in your post, which I quoted, why wasn't the verses I posted emphasized?

Because I, personally, don't think that's what Jesus was emphasizing or else it wouldn't be called "Good News".....would it?

He said He came to bring LIFE (but modern Christianity, instead, seems to focus on DEATH).

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

If God loves everyone without distinction, why did Christ need to die in the first place? What does that make the atonement out to be? Mercy without justice is no mercy at all, neither is justice without mercy.

 

[Der Alte]

Because I, personally, don't think that's what Jesus was emphasizing or else it wouldn't be called "Good News".....would it?
He said He came to bring LIFE (but modern Christianity, instead, seems to focus on DEATH).

Unlike a lot of folks I don't ignore the parts of the Bible that I don't like or which make me uncomfortable

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

"O.K. so, how do you people who believe in eternal torture in fire, how do you tuck your children in at night and explain to them that God loves you but if you don't love Him He is going to torture you in fire, not for the length of your favorite video, not for the length of a day, not even for the length of a year but it will be unending. Mommy and Daddy will be in heaven while you writhe in unimaginable suffering because this is what God does to those who don't love Him."

"So how do you explain to your children about God's love? Do you tell them the truth that you love your children more than God does and you would never harm your children even if they don't love you?"

"There has to come a time when you tell them the truth, don't you think?"

"This is not sarcasm. It is letting those who believe in eternal torment come to grips with their beliefs. If they are honest with themselves they have to tell their children these things.
After all, we wouldn't want to sugar coat something so serious as a loving God torturing people for billions and billions and billions and billions of years without end, those who do not love Him, now would we?"

"And if your children only love Him to escape such a fate, what kind of hypocritical love is that?"

"As a child, camping out, I would ask my friends as we sat around the campfire and looking into it: "How can God burn people in fire for e--t--e--r--n--i--t--y?" No one would say a word. But it always bugged me. As I grew up and started visiting hell-fire churches, it was psychologically horrifying. It's like the people that attend those churches do so for the thrill of having the begeebies scared out of them. Kind of like thrill seekers. I was so glad to leave that behind and find out about God's love and plan for all mankind."

----------------


"Yep. People who say that they believe in Hell aren't remotely serious. If they were, they would be catatonic."

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"I went through a phase where I strongly believed in ET. I lost my appetite (and thus a lot of weight) and was constantly anxious. It was terrible."


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"That is indeed the seat of a LOT of mental health concerns many Christians who subscribe to it suffer; consequently, I can understand certain over-the-top reactions by some
supposed non-believers."


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"Basically Hell is a component in an intellectual construct that many people toy with in their minds. Nobody believes in Hell in the same way that I believe that I love my daughter,
that my mother loves me, that the sky is blue, etc."

Concerning 1 Timothy 4:10

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Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

So are you suggesting becuase God's love (for example he killed quite a few people in the OT) doesn't line up with the human conception of love....that we should exterminate scriptures that contradict that philosophical vision of love some humans may have?

Just trying to figure out what you're saying here.

 

[mkgal1]

Unlike a lot of folks I don't ignore the parts of the Bible that I don't like or which make me uncomfortable

Actually.....I don't have to ignore anything in the Bible in order to disagree with your theology. I just look through a different lens (I see God as Love and benevolence).....so everything has to fit into that paradigm.

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

So, it sounds like you don't have a very firm grasp on GRACE....

not to be rude but I do believe that you are interpreting the bible wrong. the Grace story is not about what WE do wrong, its about not ever being able to obtain salvation outside of Christ. the best part is that grace is what saves us and keeps us saved. if you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart you are saved. its simple.

God isn't a bully with a big stick wanting to send people to hell. he wishes nobody would perish. hes not waiting around the corner just watching and hoping you screw up. if you walk in grace you walk in his forgivness.

so do I believe in eternal torment yes, but its not Gods will for that. infact he made it so easy all you have to do is believe. hes willing to forgive everything..everytime...I would encourage to listen to some of Joseph Prince teaching.

Joseph Prince should NOT be listened to, as he presents a false "gospel" with a false salvation! He teaches that "repentance" is not turning from ones personal sins, and asking God for mercy and forgiveness, but simply a "changing of ones mind", but not in regard to ones sins! Here is a prayer from one of his books:

"Lord Jesus, thank You for loving me and dying for me on the cross. Your precious blood washes me clean of every sin. You are my Lord and my Savior, now and forever. I believe that You rose from the dead and that You are alive today. Because of Your finished work, I am now a beloved child of God and heaven is my home. Thank You for giving me eternal life, and filling my heart with Your peace and joy. Amen." (Destined To Reign)

WHERE is any mention of repentance and sorrow of personal sins? Jesus Himself says at the beginning of Luke 13, "unless you REPENT, you will perish". When the Apostle Peter finished preaching in Acts chapter 2, those who were convicted by his message said, "what must we do", to which Peter replied "REPENT" (verses 36-39). Luke 24:47 says, "repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed" (as the best Greek evidence has it)

Prince is yet another false gospel preacher who peddles a "cheap grace" that will save no one! he also teaches that after becoming a Christian there is no need to "repent" of any sins committed during the Christians life!

 

[mkgal1]

why did Christ need to die in the first place?

To demonstrate His love for us. (Romans 5:8)

As far as atonement? This is what I believe:

---------->Jesus came to radically undo this illusory scapegoat mechanism, which is found in every culture in some form. He became the scapegoat to reveal the universal lie of scapegoating. Note that John the Baptist said, “Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin [singular] of the world” (John 1:29). It seems “the sin of the world” is ignorant killing, hatred, and fear. As Blaise Pascal so insightfully wrote, “People never do evil so completely and so cheerfully as when they do it with a religious conviction.” [2] We see this in much of the United States in our own time, with churches on every corner.

The Gospel is a highly subversive document. It painstakingly illustrates how the systems of both church and state (Caiaphas and Pilate) conspired to condemn Jesus. Throughout most of history, church and state have sought plausible scapegoats to carry their own shame and guilt. So Jesus became the sinned-against one to reveal the hidden nature of scapegoating, and we would forever see how wrong power can be—even religious power! (See John 16:8-11 and Romans 8:3.) Finally Jesus says from the cross: “Father, forgive them, for they don’t know what they’re doing” (Luke 23:34). The scapegoat mechanism largely operates in the unconscious; people do not know what they are doing. Scapegoaters do not know they are scapegoating, but they think they are doing a “holy duty for God” (John 16:2). You see why inner work, shadow work, and honest self-knowledge are all essential to any healthy religion.
From: https://cac.org/jesus-reveals-lie-scapegoating-2016-10-13/

 

[mkgal1]

Joseph Prince should NOT be listened to, as he presents a false "gospel" with a false salvation! He teaches that "repentance" is not turning from ones personal sins, and asking God for mercy and forgiveness, but simply a "changing of ones mind", but not in regard to ones sins! Here is a prayer from one of his books:

"Lord Jesus, thank You for loving me and dying for me on the cross. Your precious blood washes me clean of every sin. You are my Lord and my Savior, now and forever. I believe that You rose from the dead and that You are alive today. Because of Your finished work, I am now a beloved child of God and heaven is my home. Thank You for giving me eternal life, and filling my heart with Your peace and joy. Amen." (Destined To Reign)

WHERE is any mention of repentance and sorrow of personal sins? Jesus Himself says at the beginning of Luke 13, "unless you REPENT, you will perish". When the Apostle Peter finished preaching in Acts chapter 2, those who were convicted by his message said, "what must we do", to which Peter replied "REPENT" (verses 36-39). Luke 24:47 says, "repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed" (as the best Greek evidence has it)

Prince is yet another false gospel preacher who peddles a "cheap grace" that will save no one! he also teaches that after becoming a Christian there is no need to "repent" of any sins committed during the Christians life!

.....which is something that confuses me.

The same group that holds up teachers like this as "sharing the gospel" ....will argue against my views, presuming that I have an "anything goes" idea of theology (which isn't true). How is it missed that *this* theology represents just that (just say a prayer and you're in--no true repentance necessary)?

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

If God loves everyone without distinction, why did Christ need to die in the first place? What does that make the atonement out to be? Mercy without justice is no mercy at all, neither is justice without mercy.

John 3:16 tells us, "God so loves the whole human race", as the text says, and as understood by John Calvin in his comments on this verse! If you read the account of the Lord's Supper in Luke's Gospel, you will see that Jesus said to Judas, as He did to the other 11, "this is My blood, shed for YOU". If Jesus did not die for Judas, then he would have waited for him to leave the room, and then say these words! John Calvin, John Gill and Matthew Henry, all admit that Judas did take the Lord's Supper!

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

.....which is something that confuses me.

The same group that holds up teachers like this as "sharing the gospel" ....will argue against my views, presuming that I have an "anything goes" idea of theology (which isn't true). How is it missed that *this* theology represents just that (just say a prayer and you're in--no true repentance necessary)?

There are many who claim to preach the "gospel" but who in reality do not! This was warned by the Apostle Paul;

"I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!" (Galatians 1:6-9)

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

If the atonement of Christ is of infinite value and worth, and through the substitutional nature of it the wrath of God and justice we deserve, to suppose that there is no infinite punishment for the non-believing unrepentant sinner is to do great damage to the cross, it is a mockery of the righteousness of God, and to humanize the infinite love of God which can be comprehended on one hand to an extent, and yet is incomprehensible in that the finite cannot fully grasp the infinite. The love of God is so much greater and purer than we can comprehend, but we like to think we're so loving and deserving, when in fact we're not.

 

[mkgal1]

There are many who claim to preach the "gospel" but who in reality do not!

I realize that. What I meant is confusing to me is how there's offense that my theology could possibly mean there's no need for repentance (which isn't true).....while they're holding onto their theology as being "true".....but it blatantly demonstrates no need for repentance (did I make that more muddled....or did that clarify what I meant?). IOW.....if a lack of repentance offends them....then why not notice that in their own theology?

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

John 3:16 tells us, "God so loves the whole human race", as the text says, and as understood by John Calvin in his comments on this verse! If you read the account of the Lord's Supper in Luke's Gospel, you will see that Jesus said to Judas, as He did to the other 11, "this is My blood, shed for YOU". If Jesus did not die for Judas, then he would have waited for him to leave the room, and then say these words! John Calvin, John Gill and Matthew Henry, all admit that Judas did take the Lord's Supper!

I love all races of people too, but when the Spirit is renewing my heart and mind, I don't love the world, and worldliness tends to be frowned on in the midst of other Christians. Non-Christians are often correct when they criticize us for our worldly ways. This world sure is a big place, but my world is small, even smaller the land I live on!

 

[mkgal1]

to suppose that there is no infinite punishment for the non-believing unrepentant sinner is to do great damage to the cross

If the “Lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth” (Rev. 13:8), then the Cross has stood from the foundation of the earth.

---------->According to Scotus, God’s first intention — from all eternity — was that human nature be glorified by being united to the divine Word. And this was to happen regardless of the first humans’ innocence or sinfulness. To say that the Incarnation of Christ was an afterthought of God, dependent on Adam and Eve’s fall, would be to base the rich Christian theology of Incarnation on sin! Theologians could do better than that — and Duns Scotus did.

Given humanity’s sin, the way Christ eventually came was in the form of a savior whose great act of love and self-surrender set us free.~John Duns Scotus: His View of Christ

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

If the “Lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth” (Rev. 13:8), then the Cross has stood from the foundation of the earth.

In other words, God's plan of salvation is from eternity, before the creation of planet earth.

>According to Scotus, God’s first intention — from all eternity — was that human nature be glorified by being united to the divine Word. And this was to happen regardless of the first humans’ innocence or sinfulness. To say that the Incarnation of Christ was an afterthought of God, dependent on Adam and Eve’s fall, would be to base the rich Christian theology of Incarnation on sin! Theologians could do better than that — and Duns Scotus did.

Given humanity’s sin, the way Christ eventually came was in the form of a savior whose great act of love and self-surrender set us free.~John Duns Scotus: His View of Christ

Well that's nice for Scotus the medievil Catholic theologian, but how does quoting his view on the matter hold theological weight to me? The notion of "regardless" from the quote above is pure speculation, wild speculation, having no basis in or implication from Scripture, so it is nothing to bound a conscience to, when the stakes are so high as they are in this hot thread.

 

[dqhall]

"Basically Hell is a component in an intellectual construct that many people toy with in their minds. Nobody believes in Hell in the same way that I believe that I love my daughter,
that my mother loves me, that the sky is blue, etc."

Concerning 1 Timothy 4:10

In the parable of tares, Jesus taught that during a harvest the weeds would be separated from the grain. The weeds would be burned and then the grain would be kept. Weeds cannot burn forever. They burn once and are gone. The weeds were like wicked people, they flourished, but produced nothing of value. The grain was like one who hears the word and produces 30, 60 or 100 times as much as was invested/sown in him/her. The wicked person might listen to or read the good word and not be changed for the better by it. A word to the wise is sufficient to produce a positive change. See: Matthew 13.

Some of the theory of suffering in hell stems from fictional works such as Dante's "Inferno," a fictional account of hell.

2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore since all these things will be destroyed like this, what kind of people ought you to be in holy living and godliness, 12 looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, which will cause the burning heavens to be dissolved, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 But, according to his promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. (World English Bible - Public Domain).

Peter did not mention eternal fire, only an end to this world. I believe God intends to save the good, but may not be able to save those who made others miserable in this life. God is of life, light, healing and knowledge. God does not like torture.