how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

AACJ

Please Pray
Nov 17, 2016
1,975
1,584
US
✟103,451.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
I'm asking for an account where either Jesus or the disciples encountered an "unsaved" person ignorant of their "impending doom" .... and warned them to "accept Jesus and be saved or spend eternity being tormented in Hell" (like what the gospel has become in modern Christianity).

Why are you mis-representing the totality of the Church in its presentation of the Gospel message? That is certainly not descriptive of my presentation of the Gospel; although I do, when necessary, warn of Helle-fire pertaining to judgement. Grace is right up there in importance with judgment in my understanding of Scripture. There is currently a great "grace movement" in much of the Church.
 
Upvote 0

Mark Corbett

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 1, 2017
893
744
59
Severn, NC
Visit site
✟172,170.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The debate is won, folks.

Declaring yourself the winner?

I think all of us are tempted to think our own words and arguments are amazingly persuasive. We (including myself!) need to remember this warning:

NIV Proverbs 26:12 Do you see a person wise in their own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mkgal1
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

According to the Scriptures, God is Love Omnipotent, not a mythical deception infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.

If God doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to?
"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."
"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."
"...non-Christians are punished forever for not recieving grace, which doesn't seem very graceful to me."

Statement of Faith -- Please Read

7 Myths About Universalism


Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation: The True "Good News" Gospel of the Bible

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell
 
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).
 
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…
 
  • Like
Reactions: mkgal1
Upvote 0

Mark Corbett

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 1, 2017
893
744
59
Severn, NC
Visit site
✟172,170.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
My brother, you start by quoting from Hebrews 10:
10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

You then argue . . .

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

That's true. You continue . . .

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death.

Your argument thus far is a valid argument against eternal torment. But it does not seem to be a good argument against annihilation. After all, being stoned to death seems a lot more like annihilation than it seems like universal redemption.
 
Upvote 0

AACJ

Please Pray
Nov 17, 2016
1,975
1,584
US
✟103,451.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
Declaring yourself the winner?

I think all of us are tempted to think our own words and arguments are amazingly persuasive. We (including myself!) need to remember this warning:

NIV Proverbs 26:12 Do you see a person wise in their own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for them.
Is that not just another way of saying we cannot know when we have a victory? Should the victorious not shout the victory? Have I claimed to find wisdom in my own strength or person? The special arguing points and presentation I have contributed to this topic, on this thread and elsewhere in social media, I have gained from no man, not through literature or otherwise--outside of the Holy Spirit and God's Word. I have certainly taken no credit for any positive contribution I might have made to this topic. You should have a little more proof of someone's motivations and intent before making such an unfounded accusation.

"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him" (James 1:5).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Why are you mis-representing the totality of the Church in its presentation of the Gospel message? That is certainly not descriptive of my presentation of the Gospel; although I do, when necessary, warn of Helle-fire pertaining to judgement. Grace is right up there in importance with judgment in my understanding of Scripture. There is currently a great "grace movement" in much of the Church.
I'm not misrepresenting the church in its presentation of the Gospel message.

If you do a little digging around, you'll discover that this "turn and burn" theology (the term used earlier...that's so perfectly descriptive) is actually the modern Gospel (and not what the historical church presented).

Fr Richard Rohr said:
In his book, Inventing Hell, Jon Sweeney points out that our Christian notion of hell largely comes from several unfortunate metaphors in Matthew’s Gospel. Hell is not found in the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible. It’s not found in the Gospel of John or in Paul’s letters. The words Sheol and Gehenna are used in Matthew, but they have nothing to do with our later medieval notion of eternal punishment. Sheol is simply the place of the dead, a sort of limbo place where humans await the final judgment when God will finally win. As Paul says in 1 Corinthians, in the end “God will be all in all” (15:28). Gehenna was both the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem—the Valley of Hinnom—and an early Jewish metaphor for evil (Isaiah 66:24). The idea of hell as we most commonly view it came much more from Dante’s Divine Comedy than the Bible. Dante’s Purgatorio and Inferno are brilliant Italian poetry, but horrible Christian theology. Dante’s view of God is largely nonbiblical; however, there are some great insights in the Paradiso.

In his book, Introduction to Christianity, Pope Benedict XVI explains his understanding of the curious phrase in the middle of the Apostles’ Creed: “[Jesus] descended into hell.” Benedict says that if Jesus went to hell, that means there is no hell—because Jesus and hell cannot coexist. Once Jesus got there, the whole game of punishment was over, as it were. One of the most popular icons in the Eastern Orthodox Church shows Jesus with his legs spread, bridging the abyss of hell, pulling people out of the darkness. This is called “the icon of icons” in the East because it shows the highest level of contemplative perspective and the essence of the Good News.~https://cac.org/a-toxic-image-of-god-2016-01-28/

This is that icon mentioned:

resurrection2007.jpg


Explanation: Christ’s Descent into Hades – icon explanation

Historically....the church's Gospel means entering into the Kingdom of God....having Christ as our Lord/King.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

AACJ

Please Pray
Nov 17, 2016
1,975
1,584
US
✟103,451.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
I'm not misrepresenting the church in its presentation of the Gospel message.

If you do a little digging around, you'll discover that this "turn and burn" theology (the term used earlier...that's so perfectly descriptive) is actually the modern Gospel (and not what the historical church presented).

Your still misrepresenting. That is not the totality of current tradition. Your 'a priori' commitment to whatever it is that you are advocating for must misrepresent the current popular tradition so that you can cast the worst possible light on the position of those affirming everlasting punishment. If it was just "turn or burn," then there would not be any effective evangelism in the world. As you are very well aware of.

You are contributing nothing of substance by misrepresenting the total argument of your opposition on this topic.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
My brother, you start by quoting from Hebrews 10:


You then argue . . .



That's true. You continue . . .



Your argument thus far is a valid argument against eternal torment. But it does not seem to be a good argument against annihilation. After all, being stoned to death seems a lot more like annihilation than it seems like universal redemption.

Did the writer of Hebrews believe death was the end of a person, or merely the transfer from one life to another, from one world to another world, one realm to another realm. Compare Lk.16:19-31.

But i think you may have missed the point, which was concerning the sufferings via the means of death (whether stoning, hanging burning, etc), not death itself. And the comparison of such a punishment (the sufferings) with what the Christ rejectors referred to deserve. They deserve a punishment comparable to stoning, not endless annihilation.

The passage thus supports a finite conscious punishment, not an endless punishment of any type (whether tortures & or oblivion).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
That is not the totality of current tradition.
So.....the Gospel changed? Maybe it's more that *people* changed the Gospel?

It *is* the totality of current tradition for many people (largely those of the Orthodox tradition) to believe that the Gospel message is about the Kingdom of God---and that is what the early church shared in the beginning of Christianity.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

AACJ

Please Pray
Nov 17, 2016
1,975
1,584
US
✟103,451.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
So.....the Gospel changed? Maybe it's more that *people* changed the Gospel?
Now your tossing out red herrings, dear CHristian. I mentioned not a change in the Gospel. Your misrepresenting by making it appear that the "turn or burn" sentiment is all there is in my camp's presentation. That is not primary. The love of God and his Atoning work are primary. That is the true starting point, not Hell-fire. There is no repentance outside of prevenient grace. Grace precedes it all.

I know there are certain street preachers that need some serious refining, but they do not represent the majority, I believe. Although I am an advocate for street preaching.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Doug Melven
Upvote 0

TheBibleIsTruth

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2017
798
367
Dudley
✟18,402.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. We are all sinners.
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned.
Psalms 51:5 .
Recall the Pharisee and the publican. Luke 18:9-14 . One was just in his own eyes by his own virtue and the other seeing his own state of sin, asked God to have mercy. Jesus here says that the one asking for mercy is the just one.
Christ is found by checking the pride at the door.

You have missed what I have said earlier. To my understanding, for someone to be a "sinner", means that the person has actually committed the "act of sin". Like an "adulterer" is on who has "committed the act", and a "thief", someone who has "actually stolen", etc, etc. A person who is newly born into this world, has not done any "right or wrong", and up till a certain in their lives, are "innocent" before God. God only knowing the "time" in each case. See Deuteronomy 1:39, "And as for your little ones, who you said would become a prey, and your children, who today have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in there. And to them I will give it, and they shall possess it"; Isaiah 7:16, "For before the boy knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good"; and, Jonah 4:11, "And should not I pity Nineveh, that great city, in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know their right hand from their left, and also much cattle?”; and Romans 9:11, "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad". All show that there is a "time of innocence", unless there is another meaning to these verses?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: mkgal1
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I mentioned not a change in the Gospel.
I only mentioned "change" because of the way you phrased this is your post:

AACJ said:
That is not the totality of current tradition.

.....which, from what I've studied......is actually a change from the early church (your post seemed to make a distinction between now and historically by using the word "current"). "Hell" itself is a modern word (modern....as in 725 AD).
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Your misrepresenting by making it appear that the "turn or burn" sentiment is all there is in my camp's presentation.
I won't use that phrase again. I apologize.
 
Upvote 0

mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
Supporter
Jun 22, 2007
27,339
7,349
California
✟551,233.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
The love of God and his Atoning work are primary
I agree.....although we may differ on what "atoning" means. I believe it to mean "at-one-ment".

------>Franciscan teacher, Blessed John Duns Scotus (c. 1266-1308), who founded the theological chair at Oxford, said that Jesus wasn’t solving any problems by coming to earth and dying. Jesus wasn’t changing God’s mind about us; rather, Jesus was changing our minds about God. That, in a word, was our nonviolent at-one-ment theory. God did not need Jesus to die on the cross to decide to love humanity. God’s love was infinite from the first moment of creation; the cross was just Love’s dramatic portrayal in space and time.

Scotus built his argument on the pre-existent Cosmic Christ described in Colossians and Ephesians. Jesus is “the image of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:15) who came forward in a moment of time so we could look upon “the One we had pierced” (John 19:37) and see God’s unconditional love for us, in spite of our failings.

The image of the cross was to change humanity, not a necessary transaction to change God—as if God needed changing! Scotus concluded that Jesus’ death was not a “penal substitution” but a divine epiphany for all to see. Jesus was pure gift, and the idea of gift is much more transformative than any idea of necessity, price, or transaction. It shows that God is not violent, but loving.~https://cac.org/nonviolent-atonement-one-ment-2016-10-12/
 
Upvote 0

Ronald

Exhortations
Supporter
Jul 30, 2004
4,620
982
southern
✟111,578.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
"O.K. so, how do you people who believe in eternal torture in fire, how do you tuck your children in at night and explain to them that God loves you but if you don't love Him He is going to torture you in fire, not for the length of your favorite video, not for the length of a day, not even for the length of a year but it will be unending. Mommy and Daddy will be in heaven while you writhe in unimaginable suffering because this is what God does to those who don't love Him."

"So how do you explain to your children about God's love? Do you tell them the truth that you love your children more than God does and you would never harm your children even if they don't love you?"

"There has to come a time when you tell them the truth, don't you think?"

"This is not sarcasm. It is letting those who believe in eternal torment come to grips with their beliefs. If they are honest with themselves they have to tell their children these things.
After all, we wouldn't want to sugar coat something so serious as a loving God torturing people for billions and billions and billions and billions of years without end, those who do not love Him, now would we?"

"And if your children only love Him to escape such a fate, what kind of hypocritical love is that?"

"As a child, camping out, I would ask my friends as we sat around the campfire and looking into it: "How can God burn people in fire for e--t--e--r--n--i--t--y?" No one would say a word. But it always bugged me. As I grew up and started visiting hell-fire churches, it was psychologically horrifying. It's like the people that attend those churches do so for the thrill of having the begeebies scared out of them. Kind of like thrill seekers. I was so glad to leave that behind and find out about God's love and plan for all mankind."

----------------


"Yep. People who say that they believe in Hell aren't remotely serious. If they were, they would be catatonic."

---------------

"I went through a phase where I strongly believed in ET. I lost my appetite (and thus a lot of weight) and was constantly anxious. It was terrible."


--------------


"That is indeed the seat of a LOT of mental health concerns many Christians who subscribe to it suffer; consequently, I can understand certain over-the-top reactions by some
supposed non-believers."


------------


"Basically Hell is a component in an intellectual construct that many people toy with in their minds. Nobody believes in Hell in the same way that I believe that I love my daughter,
that my mother loves me, that the sky is blue, etc."

Concerning 1 Timothy 4:10

------------------------------------------------



Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?
Do a word study on eternity, destruction and perish. Eternity/eternal are translated from the Greek words, aion / aionios. These words have variable meanings: generation(s), lifetime(s), age(s), epoch, world. When it is used to describe God, His domain or our salvation it means a spiritual existence without end. When it is applied to temporal physical things (everything else), then it has a finite meaning. Everlasting would translate into age-lasting or age-during as well, which is also finite.
Hades (Sheol) is a place where the unsaved dead go and await their ultimate destruction, which means, they get resurrected and thrown into the Lake of Fire (Hell).
Destruction and perish means to put an end to. You can't destroy something over and over again for an endless amount of time. That would mean an indestructible destruction or imperishable perishing -- it's contradictory. I believe the Lake of Fire is literal, like a volcanic lava lake. Imagine being thrown in there -- how long would it take for you to die? Paper burns and that's it, it doesn't keep burning. The best visual imagery to date I think is that scene in Lord of the Rings where Golum falls into the river of lava.
In Revelation 20:14, Death and Hades are thrown into the Lake of Fire and destroyed -- put an end to. Wait a minute, death is destroyed? Think about it, the wages of sin is death, but then death comes to an end!
How would God be glorified by allowing billions of souls who have sinned for anywhere from childhood to 80 years or so? God is fair and in the Bible we see His justice and it has always been fair and for a time - finite. The punishment matches the crime. Even Hitler's crimes shouldn't be eternal. Even if his punishment was 6 million lifetimes, eventually it ends at some point.
Your question is a valid one. Eternal Hell has been a stumbling block for many. Many people would use that excuse not to become a Christian: "I can't worship any god who would create an eternal torture chamber." That's actually a good excuse. But even if it were so, I would be more concerned about my suffering than anyone else's. It also interesting how these people are so concerned about others suffering, when they wouldn't share crumbs with a bum or even say hello.
I know this goes against the grain of traditional doctrine accepted by both Catholic and Protestant Churches and Non-Denominational churches, but it is the way I see it and am pretty comfortable with it. If I'm wrong, well God will let me know, "Ron, I am causing suffering to billions of souls forever, do you have a problem with that?" A ... nope ... just remove that from my mind if you would please. That's what He would have to do when we all get up there. We would know that we have people, friends, family suffering -- how could we enjoy eternal life with this knowledge? He would have to wipe it away. But how would we remember what Christ's suffering did if not to keep us from suffering ... wait a minute, what suffering? See how that ends up? Our whole history is a lesson to remember, we need to remember where we came from so that we can forever appreciate what God has done for us. We also need to know that His judgments are just and fair. If our memory was erased of an "eternal torture chamber", then God would be left alone with that knowledge -- again, how does He glory in that. Vengeance is His but really, does He need that much?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

MyGivenNameIsKeith

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2017
687
380
xcxb xcvb n bv b
✟33,371.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
You have missed what I have said earlier. To my understanding, for someone to be a "sinner", means that the person has actually committed the "act of sin". Like an "adulterer" is on who has "committed the act", and a "thief", someone who has "actually stolen", etc, etc. A person who is newly born into this world, has not done any "right or wrong", and up till a certain in their lives, are "innocent" before God. God only knowing the "time" in each case. See Deuteronomy 1:39, "And as for your little ones, who you said would become a prey, and your children, who today have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in there. And to them I will give it, and they shall possess it"; Isaiah 7:16, "For before the boy knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good"; and, Jonah 4:11, "And should not I pity Nineveh, that great city, in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know their right hand from their left, and also much cattle?”; and Romans 9:11, "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad". All show that there is a "time of innocence", unless there is another meaning to these verses?
It is not my place to judge babies for their righteousness before God though. That's not on me. I trust in his Word, and his judgment. He is merciful and compassionate. It is our job as parents to instruct our children on the way to go.
 
Upvote 0