How do Creationists explain vestigal organs?

[SkyWriting]

I'm actually a professional person who has studied biology and bio-mechanics and you're wrong. The human blind spot for example, does not need to exist. Octopi have very similar eyes with no such problem.

A black and white world is a problem for me. Not so much for them.

 

[sandwiches]

A black and white world is a problem for me. Not so much for them.

Not all octopi are color blind. So, I guess black and white world was a problem for some of them too. Also, they can also detect light polarization as small as one degree.

So, yea... no blind spot, color vision, and polarization, not to mention they evolved their eyes separately from humans.

 

[The Engineer]

Human eyes deal with higher heat levels both from the nerves doing the processing and heat from the light.

Well, last time I checked, most of the processing occurs in the occipital cortex, which is in the back of your head, not even close to your eyes. Pretty weird configuration, by the way. If I had designed humans, I would put the region concerned with seeing near the eyes.

So yeah, heating from processing is not an issue. Otherwise, your brain would have ceased to function a long, long time ago. Why would your optic nerves overheat from the processing, but not the billions of nerves that are right inside your head, clumped together?

As such, the nerves must be short and "leave the area" by the shortest route possible.

Because otherwise, they would suffer heat damage, or what? That's the first time I hear something like that. The receptors in your skin have no problem dealing with relatively intense heat, why would your retina have problems dealing with light?

Our eyes are a vastly superior design for how we use them.

They would be better without a blind spot, though. And the retina being the first layer is still an odd configuration.

Plus ours can adapt fairly quickly to new environments.

http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/Superior Underwater Vision in a Human Population

"Charles Darwin was stumped by the human eye."
A Closer Look at the Human Eye: 10 Fascinating Facts | My Local Connect

Mantis Shrimps have cooler eyes. They have depth-perception in each eye and can see a dozen or so colors and even perceive circular polarized light.

EDIT: By the way, the second link you posted? It had the decency to provide a hint that Charles Darwin did not talk about irreducible complexity. Just sayin'.

 

[Jro]

A black and white world is a problem for me. Not so much for them.

Science Links Japan | Color Discrimination Conditioning in Two Octopus Octopus aegina and O. vulgaris.

It varies species to species. Nothing to do with the placement of the optic nerve though. I'm still curious as to how the placement of this nerve helps cool the eye.

 

[SkyWriting]

Not all octopi are color blind. So, I guess black and white world was a problem for some of them too. Also, they can also detect light polarization as small as one degree. So, yea... no blind spot, color vision, and polarization, not to mention they evolved their eyes separately from humans.

They did? I thought we all had common ancestors. You being the eyeball specialist, which animals show eye designs that suggest where ape eye design came from?

Of the 800 species, one octopi has been shown not to be color blind. Polarized sunglasses were a fad feature that few still bother to purchase.
Very useful for water species or those who hunt there.

 

[SkyWriting]

Science Links Japan | Color Discrimination Conditioning in Two Octopus Octopus aegina and O. vulgaris.

It varies species to species. Nothing to do with the placement of the optic nerve though. I'm still curious as to how the placement of this nerve helps cool the eye.

Curiosity results in research. A good start.

 

[SkyWriting]

The receptors in your skin have no problem dealing with relatively intense heat, why would your retina have problems dealing with light?

It has to do with the lens thing focusing the light stuff on an smaller section of receptor thingies.

 

[Tiberius]

And the blind spot does not exist to anyone who keeps both eyes open. The blind spot test requires you shutting one eye which causes you to lose about 70 degrees of vision on the close side plus lose the 3d image. This is why smart people walk around with both eyes open.

Only when the field of view of both eyes overlaps. In many animals it doesn't. How do you explain that?

 

[SkyWriting]

Science Links Japan | Color Discrimination Conditioning in Two Octopus Octopus aegina and O. vulgaris.

It varies species to species. Nothing to do with the placement of the optic nerve though. I'm still curious as to how the placement of this nerve helps cool the eye.

I was wrong. So that's two species out of 800 that can make out color difference.

 

[SkyWriting]

Only when the field of view of both eyes overlaps. In many animals it doesn't. How do you explain that?

Animals are different. Even their eyes.

 

[The Engineer]

Curiosity results in research. A good start.

I suggest you do your research and we do ours. I'm certainly not going to do your work for you.

It has to do with the lens thing focusing the light stuff on an smaller section of receptor thingies.

Your eyes aren't magnifying glasses. They focus the light, true, but so do camera lenses, and I never, ever heard of a mundane camera lens overheating the inside of the camera.

 

[Skaloop]

Your eyes aren't magnifying glasses. They focus the light, true, but so do camera lenses, and I never, ever heard of a mundane camera lens overheating the inside of the camera.

Even if the eye was subject to significant heat issues, I'm still curious about how exactly the optic nerve causing a blind spot would in any way alleviate that.

 

[The Engineer]

Even if the eye was subject to significant heat issues, I'm still curious about how exactly the optic nerve causing a blind spot would in any way alleviate that.

That would have been my second question. The overheating-eye-hypothesis fails on so many levels, it's astonishing.

 

[SkyWriting]

So yeah, heating from processing is not an issue. Otherwise, your brain would have ceased to function a long, long time ago. Why would your optic nerves overheat from the processing, but not the billions of nerves that are right inside your head, clumped together?

Photon recognition uses a complex chemical process that needs both temperature cooling and removal of waste products.
Humans have one rod and three cone types, compared to cephalopods that have only rods. The superior design we have
requires better blood flow to handle the chemical heating that results. This lead to an inverted arraignment and results in
both better sensitivity and versatility to broader conditions.

Happily, human eye design can register one photon.

The cycle time for rods to be ready for use after one "hit" is 5 minutes but 1.5 minutes for cones. As a result cephalopods
often mistake anything that moves as food because their eyes are designed for low light conditions and to detect movement
more than any detail.
The combination of rods and cones allow fast adaption to changing light conditions, ability to see more detail rather than
movement, ability to handle high energy (bright sunlight) conditions, all make the human eye superior to cephalopods.
The very minor issue of one blind spot has absolutely no effect on the ability of humans to live long lives and reproduce.

And as far as evolutionists care, that's all that is important.

Note that the "blind" spot is different for each eye. People with two eyes have the result of a full field of vision.
This would be an actual issue for the Cyclops species but they have a much less versatile design.



Coulombre, A. 1994. Roles of the retinal
pigment epithelium in the development
of ocular tissue. In Zinn, K.M., and M.F.
Marmor (editors), The Retinal Pigment
Epithelium, pp. 53–57. Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA.
Dalton, R. 2004. True colours. Nature
428:596–597.

Dowling, J.E. 1987. The Retina: An Approachable Part of the Brain. The
Belknap Press of Harvard University
Press, Cambridge, MA.

Jeffery, G., and A. Williams. 1994. Is abnormal retinal development in albinism only a mammalian problem?
Normality of a hypopigmented avian retina. Experimental Brain Research 100:47–57.

Kolb, H. 2003. How the retina works. American Scientist 91:28–35.
Kuwabara, T. 1994. Species differences in
the retinal pigment epithelium. In Zinn,
K.M., and M.F. Marmor (editors), The
Retinal Pigment Epithelium, pp. 58–82.
Harvard University Press, Cambridge,
MA.

Martínez-Morales, J.R., I. Rodrigo, and P. Bovolenta. 2004. Eye development: a view
from the retina pigmented epithelium.
BioEssays 26:766–777.

 

[The Engineer]

Photon recognition uses a complex chemical process that needs both temperature cooling and removal of waste products.
Humans have one rod and three cone types, compared to cephalopods that have only rods. The superior design we have
requires better blood flow to handle the chemical heating that results. This lead to an inverted arraignment and results in
both better sensitivity and versatility to broader conditions.

Do you have sources for your claim that significant and potentially harmful chemical heating occurs in your eyes?

The cycle time for rods to be ready for use after one "hit" is 5 minutes but 1.5 minutes for cones. As a result cephalopods
often mistake anything that moves as food because their eyes are designed for low light conditions and to detect movement
more than any detail.

What do the different timespans have to do with cephalopods getting more false-positive results when perceiving movements?

The combination of rods and cones allow fast adaption to changing light conditions, ability to see more detail rather than
movement, ability to handle high energy (bright sunlight) conditions, all make the human eye superior to cephalopods.
The very minor issue of one blind spot has absolutely no effect on the ability of humans to live long lives and reproduce.

Yes, humans can perceive colors, but what does this have to do with the heating issue? As far as I can see, nothing.

And as far as evolutionists care, that's all that is important.

When it comes to describing evolution, yes.

Coulombre, A. 1994. Roles of the retinal
pigment epithelium in the development
of ocular tissue. In Zinn, K.M., and M.F.
Marmor (editors), The Retinal Pigment
Epithelium, pp. 53–57. Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA.
Dalton, R. 2004. True colours. Nature
428:596–597.

Dowling, J.E. 1987. The Retina: An Approachable Part of the Brain. The
Belknap Press of Harvard University
Press, Cambridge, MA.

Jeffery, G., and A. Williams. 1994. Is abnormal retinal development in albinism only a mammalian problem?
Normality of a hypopigmented avian retina. Experimental Brain Research 100:47–57.

Kolb, H. 2003. How the retina works. American Scientist 91:28–35.
Kuwabara, T. 1994. Species differences in
the retinal pigment epithelium. In Zinn,
K.M., and M.F. Marmor (editors), The
Retinal Pigment Epithelium, pp. 58–82.
Harvard University Press, Cambridge,
MA.

Martínez-Morales, J.R., I. Rodrigo, and P. Bovolenta. 2004. Eye development: a view
from the retina pigmented epithelium.
BioEssays 26:766–777.

Do any of these sources mention chemical heating that has to be alleviated with an increased blood flow to the photoreceptors in your eyes?

 

[Tiberius]

Animals are different. Even their eyes.

This doesn't address what I said at all.

If an animal with eyes where the optic nerve passes through the retina does not have stereoscopic vision, then it will have blind spots.

 

[SkyWriting]

Do you have sources for your claim that significant and potentially harmful chemical heating occurs in your eyes?

Your imagination exceeds your memory or even your ability to push the quote button. Fear not. It seems to be missing from all my posts. It must be a forum glitch or something. What I remembered about heat transfer was a casual mention rather than a well supported point in the paper I was reading.

What do the different timespans have to do with cephalopods getting more false-positive results when perceiving movements?

Their vision is optimized for sensing movement without detail. The slow recovery rate of 5 minutes for rods meas they see a blur of motion. They see it well. But a blur. Humans have a combination of rods and cones with better color sensitivity. So we can see motion as well as details with less blurring.

Yes, humans can perceive colors, but what does this have to do with the heating issue? As far as I can see, nothing.

My sources covered this as a minor point, though I thought it more important in my memory. Just as you can think of nothing else.

When it comes to describing evolution, yes.

What else is there in your world? Magic? Dreams?

Do any of these sources mention chemical heating that has to be alleviated with an increased blood flow to the photoreceptors in your eyes?

I am very sorry Sir. Sorry. I had to dig a few minutes to find the answer to complete your homework for you.
Please do not beat me up for not doing your homework quicker. My source was rather cryptic:

"The blood flow in the human choroid is the highest in the entire human body per gram of tissue (higher than in the cortex of the kidney). More than 70% of all the blood in the eye is found in the choroid nearest the retina, probably to accommodate the mitochondrial-rich photoreceptors of the retina, which have the highest metabolic rate and demands for oxygen and nutrients per gram of tissue of all cells in the human body. In the entire retinal layer, oxygen consumption is 1.5 times greater than that of the kidney, 3 times greater than that of the cerebral cortex, and 6 times greater than that of the cardiac muscle.19,68–70 Because the impinging light is converted largely into heat, the retina must have a very effective cooling system, again provided by the rapid choroidal blood flow that serves to conduct away the heat produced by absorption of light in the retina and adjacent ocular tissues. Finally, once all these systemic factors are accounted for, there are several dynamic local elimination pathways, such as the choriocapillaris or retina clearance mechanism and the transcellular xenobiotic efflux transporters of the RPE."

Ophthalmic Drug Delivery Systems for the Treatment of Retinal Diseases: Basic Research to Clinical Applications

Anyway, there is absolutely no valid claim that a cephalopod eye system is superior to human.
None at all. No such claims show a lack of bias required to be considered of scientific origin.
They fail to even be considered secular.

 

[SkyWriting]

This doesn't address what I said at all. If an animal with eyes where the optic nerve passes through the retina does not have stereoscopic vision, then it will have blind spots.

And it's not an issue for species that do have stereoscopic vision because one eye covers the same space where the other does not.
Got it.

 

[SkyWriting]

That would have been my second question. The overheating-eye-hypothesis fails on so many levels, it's astonishing.

God would never design an overheating eye. Duh. That's strictly
a non-designer idea. I said the design humans have works
better for removing high heat loads caused by photons and the
chemical process needed to sense them for land based people.
At least that what I meant to say. I work 12 hour days. I don't
know about you guys.

Some of you seem to have PhD's, but no work schedule at all.

 

[SkyWriting]

Do go on. Please explain how nerve bundle placement assists in cooling the eye. Octopus do not always live at 5000m depth, but sometimes quite shallow water that's warmer than say, Norway.

They......don't walk in sunlight much either. An they get built in polarized sunglasses cause they stare at water reflected light 24/7.
The inverted design moves the blood flow closer to the problem areas. And the sensitivity is good for one photon.
It don't git better.

"the retina must have a very effective cooling system, again provided by the rapid choroidal blood flow that serves to conduct away the heat produced by absorption of light in the retina and adjacent ocular tissues. "