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How do Creationists explain vestigal organs?

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by The Engineer, Aug 3, 2012.

  1. serge546

    serge546 Master of microbes

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    So blatantly false that you should be ashamed to even post here with a straight face. As a graduate student in microbiology, I almost puked at this statement.

    Please look up antibiotic resistance in Klebsiella pneumoniae, Staphylococcus aureus and Mycobacterium tuberculosis. These are just a few species of bacteria which did not have antibiotic resistance before and are now on the verge of becoming worldwide problems due to our lack of antibiotics to fight them.

    Edit: Messed up the quoting.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2012
  2. CaliforniaSun

    CaliforniaSun Well-Known Member

    +41
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    This book will scare the poo out of you.

    amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0140250913
     
  3. Jamin4422

    Jamin4422 Member

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    In Relationship
    Evolution deals with what little there is left to deal with. Which is fine tuning. A little adjustment here and a little adjustment there.
     
  4. Jamin4422

    Jamin4422 Member

    +11
    United Ch. of Christ
    In Relationship
    Actually John in Rev wrote about "The Coming Plagues" around 2,000 years ago.
     
  5. Jamin4422

    Jamin4422 Member

    +11
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    You know your guilty of what you accuse others of. So you should be careful about what you tell people about yourself. There maybe somethings you do not want them to know.
     
  6. Jamin4422

    Jamin4422 Member

    +11
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    That has happened many times. Thank you for making our case for us.
     
  7. Jamin4422

    Jamin4422 Member

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    I am talking about the objects. You know additive and subtractive color theory and all of that. In some cases the light will excite the atoms in the object and this will have an effect on what your eyes see. Or what you photograph. Objects are known to absorb or reflect light. Light that is reflected your eyes can see. If the light is absorbed then your eyes do not see anything.
     
  8. The Engineer

    The Engineer I defeated Dr Goetz

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    Evolution has nothing to do with fine tuning, and it certainly doesn't deal with what little there is left to deal with.

    How is that your case? As I said, if the same system was used by God twice, I would expect him to use the exact same system, not a functionally similar, but different one.

    The fact that functionally similar systems which must have evolved separately are so different is a point for evolution. It's exactly what evolution would predict.

    So what? What does this have to do with anything? Yeah, the rules of how light is absorbed and reflected exist. Now, tell me, what does this have to do with evolution?!
     
  9. drjean

    drjean Senior Veteran Supporter

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    The medical advances made since Darwin's day have shown that virtually all of these vestigial organs do, in fact, have functions, many of which are very necessary at an early stage of our physical development.
     
  10. Elendur

    Elendur Gamer and mathematician

    +20
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    Well the OP didn't limit the vestigial organs to humans.

    Also, all of them? Really?
     
  11. mzungu

    mzungu INVICTUS

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    And you of course knows what God knows eh :confused:

    So when did snakes stop speaking English :confused:
     
  12. USincognito

    USincognito Milk-Bones for Cerberus is a cool album name Supporter

    +13,601
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    I don't know what Creationist site you got that from, but sorry, there's plenty of evidence that the tailbone (and there's a reason it's called that) is vestigial.
    Is the Coccyx Vestigial?
    There are genetic bases, skeletal bases (the bones are the same in us and our fellow tailless apes as they are in other tailed tetrapods) and there are muscles that are useless for any other reason than a tail.
    "Now muscles do just one thing. They contract (muscles are even called a contractile tissue). And when they contract, they obviously shorten. And when they shorten they pull the connection points closer together.

    All of this means that when the extensor coccygis contracts it can only pull the bones it is attached to closer together. Thus it serves to flex the coccyx, causing it to extend or stick out. And this is exactly what the extensor muscle in animals with tails does. But no human can do this since the coccyx no longer moves and as noted some people don't even have an extensor coccyxis in the first place.

    Yet here is a muscle stretched across fused bone joints that in other animals lifts up the tail and that in humans and other apes exists solely to move the coccyx -- something that never happens. Instead it just sits there pointlessly spanning a joint that can not move. Does that sound like a feature that was designed that way or more like the result of evolution?"

    I suggest you read the whole post I linked to.

    Did you guys get gypped out of semi-prehensile toes as well? I have a bad back (thank you poorly adapted bipedalism) and would hate to bend over at the waist to pick things up. Thankfully I have some vestigial prehensileness in my toes and I can pick items up as long as I'm barefoot.

    Assuming your Creationist source is 100% correct, wouldn't the fact that leg bones were being used for mating be the very definition of vestigial?

    This is a lie that has been long and literally debunked for 15 years by former YEC Glenn Morton. Not only does the geological column exist, it exists in about 30 different places on the Earth.
    The Entire Geologic Column in North Dakota

    Can we count on you not to spread this lie any more?

    Let's leave aside for a moment all the problems presented by physics and geophysics as to The Flood merely happening, much less leaving behind no evidence of it's existance and take for example marine fossils (which I think you're referring to, not all marine fossils in - yes in, not just on the tops of - mountains are "sea shells"). Plate tectonics explains how strata that were at one time marine sediment was uptrust by the movement of continental plates. In one particular case, we see that action occuring as we watch. The Himalayas continue to grow about 2 inches a year as India smashes into the Tibetan plateau... pushing the former marine sedimentary layers ever higher.

    How does Flood Geology explain the fact that both the Himalayas and the Hawaiian Islands continue to grow?
     
  13. Lion Hearted Man

    Lion Hearted Man Eternal Newbie

    +91
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    A vestigial organ is not necessarily functionless, it has simply lost its ancestral function.

    Example:
    The coccyx/tail bone is present in humans despite the fact that we no longer have a tail (the tail is present in some early stages of embryological development, however). In us, the coccyx allows for attachment of some muscles for our pelvic floor, which is why it is still there. It is vestigial because it lost its ancestral function.
     
  14. Jamin4422

    Jamin4422 Member

    +11
    United Ch. of Christ
    In Relationship
    I know what He tells me. Although God does not actually talk to me, He just gives me understanding.

    English as in a language? Communication with animals does not involve a language. Don't you have a dog or a cat that you can communicate with?
     
  15. mzungu

    mzungu INVICTUS

    +183
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    Married
    Understanding of what? Gravity, Earth's trajectory, atmosphere's density, constitution of the oceans, disease propagation etc.:confused:

    I'd have a hard time understanding if my dogs tried to get me to eat an apple, that's for sure!^_^
     
  16. Loudmouth

    Loudmouth Contributor

    +5,953
    Agnostic
    Even so, the coccyx is still vestigial.

    "An organ serving for two purposes, may become rudimentary or utterly aborted for one, even the more important purpose, and remain perfectly efficient for the other . . ."--Charles Darwin

    The coccyx has lost its primary function which is supporting a tail. We even retain the extensor coccygis muscle which lies on the dorsal side of the coccyx and spans several FUSED joints. In other animals, this muscle lifts the tail.

    Using the coccyx to support interal musculature is like pounding in nails with a computer keyboard. Yes, it will get the job done, but it is quite obvious that the computer keyboard has other functions that it is not being used for.

    You are thinking of the excuse that creationists use for ignoring the legs on transitional whales. In the case of modern whales these bones are so small as to be ignored for all function.

    Actually, you can start with a single bacterium that is sensitive to antibiotics and over time you will find mutants that are resistant to antibiotics. This is not a case of pre-existing variation.

    Also, macroevolution is simply the accumulation of these very mutants over time.

    But back to vestigial organs . . .

    Vestigial does not mean lacking all function. That is the mistake that all creationists tend to make. My example of using a computer keyboard to pound in nails is a good analogy for what I am talking about. What we observe with vestigial organs is a complex organ being used for a very simple task. The human appendix is the holdover from a larger caecum found in other species. This is a complex organ that is used to digest plant material. In humans, it has the very simple task of holding immune cells. The caecum in other species does the same task as well as the primary task of digesting cellulose. The function in humans is a less important and rudimentary function. Again, this is what is meant by vestigial.
     
  17. Lion Hearted Man

    Lion Hearted Man Eternal Newbie

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    Haha. I love this.
     
  18. Jamin4422

    Jamin4422 Member

    +11
    United Ch. of Christ
    In Relationship
    I know what He wants me to know. He is the one that runs the show, not you or me.
    No matter how much the atheists think they could do a better job of running the universe.
     
  19. Jamin4422

    Jamin4422 Member

    +11
    United Ch. of Christ
    In Relationship
    Understanding my wife to begin with. I would be lost if God did not help me there.
     
  20. Loudmouth

    Loudmouth Contributor

    +5,953
    Agnostic
    And yet creationists feel comfortable in telling God that he didn't use evolution. Go figure.
     
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