How do Creationists explain vestigal organs?

[Papias]

Jamin, are you aware of the fact that the United Church of Christ strongly supports evolution, including the fact that we are descended from earlier apes?

Papias

 

[Papias]

Re-posting to give this a bump. Jamin, you may have missed my question since this has fallen down the list, but hopefully now you can see it. I asked:


Jamin, are you aware of the fact that the United Church of Christ strongly supports evolution, including the fact that we are descended from earlier apes?

Papias

 

[drjean]

At best, evidence of vestigial organs in man demonstrates deterioration and loss of information since the Fall. They are evolutionary relics of common ancestors with animals only if you begin with evolutionary presuppositions.

Dr. David DeWitt is the author of Unraveling the Origins Controversy. He is the Director of the Center for Creation Studies and a professor of biology at Liberty University in Lynchburg, Virginia, USA. He has many scientific articles in peer-reviewed journals.

 

[selfinflikted]

At best, evidence of vestigial organs in man demonstrates deterioration and loss of information since the Fall. They are evolutionary relics of common ancestors with animals only if you begin with evolutionary presuppositions.

Then what do you think they are?

 

[Loudmouth]

At best, evidence of vestigial organs in man demonstrates deterioration and loss of information since the Fall. They are evolutionary relics of common ancestors with animals only if you begin with evolutionary presuppositions.

Completely false. Your statement only demonstrates that you don't understand how the evidence points to evolution.

Humans don't have vestigial feathers, vestigial wings, or vestigial horns. Instead, the vestigial features we have are consistent with a primate heritage. They are evolutionary leftovers.

So what do you mean by vestigial features being created by deterioration? Are you saying that humans used to have a tail?

 

[OllieFranz]

At best, evidence of vestigial organs in man demonstrates deterioration and loss of information since the Fall. They are evolutionary relics of common ancestors with animals only if you begin with evolutionary presuppositions.

Then what do you think they are?

He answered that in the first sentence quoted above. As best I can figure it, he apparently believes that Adam and Eve ate grass and had a caecum for fermenting it into a digestible form, but because of the fall, some time between Seth and Noah, one of the patriarchs was born with an appendix instead, and passed it on. If any humans still had caecums, at the time of Noah they died in the Flood. Too bad for him that just repeats the same sequence that the evolutionary model suggests, but allows a lot less time for the development.

 

[MarkT]

Many creationists claim that creationism is a full-blown scientific theory, and that it is a much better theory than evolution, in that it fits the evidence better than the evolution theory.

If so, then how do creationists explain that vestigal organs exist? Why do humans have a coccyx, or muscles that move your ears? Why do whales have hind leg bones?

Furthermore, why are dinosaur fossils never found in the same sedimentary layers as dogs, or cows, or rabbits? How can bacteria evolve resistance to antibiotics? And how do physical traits get carried from generation to generation?

As creationism is a better scientific theory than evolution, I'm pretty sure the creationists on here will have no trouble giving a scientific explanation for these phenomenons.

Created by our DNA. Probably wouldn't have this (pick a related feature) if we didn't have that (pick an organ).

 

[Jamin4422]

Jamin, are you aware of the fact that the United Church of Christ strongly supports evolution, including the fact that we are descended from earlier apes?

All the more reason to attend in the hope that I can show them the light of day and the truth about creationism. They say if your looking for a perfect church, then as soon as you walk in the door it is no longer going to be perfect. Although Wesley in the Holiness Movement did teach Sinless Perfection and that teaching has been picked up on by some Pentecostal Churches. So by all means you can go right on having faith that someday we will all be a part of a perfect church. Jesus is going to return for a Bride that is without spot, blemish or wrinkle.

 

[Jamin4422]

Many creationists claim that creationism is a full-blown scientific theory, and that it is a much better theory than evolution, in that it fits the evidence better than the evolution theory.

Evolution does a much better job of showing the Bible is true, compared to Creationism.

 

[mzungu]

Evolution does a much better job of showing the Bible is true, compared to Creationism.

Evolution supports talking snakes

 

[Tiberius]

Can a creationist please tell me why I have toenails on my little toes? What does God intend their purpose to be?

(Evolution, on the other hand, nicely explains why they are there.)

 

[Tiberius]

Evolution does a much better job of showing the Bible is true, compared to Creationism.

Provide examples please.

 

[mzungu]

The Bible's version of life and Reality! Guess which is which?
​

 

[SkyWriting]

Can a creationist please tell me why I have toenails on my little toes? What does God intend their purpose to be?

This is not Heaven. All your fingers and toes have protection from impact by use of the nail. My coworker had a good part of his finger saved from impact by his nail. Toes get stubbed daily and snake venom only comes from the upper fangs.

 

[CabVet]

This is not Heaven. All your fingers and toes have protection from impact by use of the nail. My coworker had a good part of his finger saved from impact by his nail. Toes get stubbed daily and snake venom only comes from the upper fangs.

Yeah, wouldn't it make much more sense from a design stand point if we had no toes to begin with?

 

[SkyWriting]

Many creationists claim that creationism is a full-blown scientific theory, and that it is a much better theory than evolution, in that it fits the evidence better than the evolution theory.

If so, then how do creationists explain that vestigal organs exist? Why do humans have a coccyx....<snip>

Did you start with your strongest argument?

"Many important ligaments attach to the coccyx: The anterior and posterior sacrococcygeal ligaments are the continuations of the anterior and posterior longitudinal ligaments that stretches along the entire spine."

 

[Papias]

Jamin wrote:

Originally Posted by Papias

Jamin, are you aware of the fact that the United Church of Christ strongly supports evolution, including the fact that we are descended from earlier apes?

All the more reason to attend in the hope that I can show them the light of day and the truth about creationism. They say if your looking for a perfect church, then as soon as you walk in the door it is no longer going to be perfect. Although Wesley in the Holiness Movement did teach Sinless Perfection and that teaching has been picked up on by some Pentecostal Churches. So by all means you can go right on having faith that someday we will all be a part of a perfect church. Jesus is going to return for a Bride that is without spot, blemish or wrinkle.
​

​

Good answer! I do support our freedom to be members of churches where we don't agree with everything they hold to be true. I was mostly asking out of awareness - for instance, I have come across many Catholics that simply didn't know that the Pope has issued statements in support of evoluiton, etc. Have a good day-

-Papias

 

[Tiberius]

This is not Heaven. All your fingers and toes have protection from impact by use of the nail. My coworker had a good part of his finger saved from impact by his nail. Toes get stubbed daily and snake venom only comes from the upper fangs.

This explains nothing. The toenails on my little toe are tiny and certainly of no protective value. So I ask again, what is their purpose?

 

[SkyWriting]

This explains nothing. The toenails on my little toe are tiny and certainly of no protective value. So I ask again, what is their purpose?

I'll be happy to remove them for you! You seem determined to learn things the hard way. It should be fun for you.

So your little toe happens to be tiny. My cousin could cross his toes just like most "normal" people cross their fingers. The design may be good, but your foot, a sad variant of what it should be.


" EFFECT OF GROUND FORCES UPON THE NAIL AND RELATED STRUCTURES
Static When a toe pulp is loaded in standing, the pulp of the toe will transmit pressure to the underside of
the nail plate. This feeds back proprioceptive information to the brain upon attitude of stance in order to
maintain balance and stand erect. The correctly trimmed nail will resist that pressure and control the
position of the pulp. If the nail were to be trimmed too short the pulp and sulci would rise vertically
upwards in front of the distal cut edge and medial and lateral corners of the nail, presenting an ill-deined
sot tissue mound through which the nail plate will inexorably attempt to advance.
Motive When the foot functions normally in gait with propulsive toes the distal end of the digits will be
rolled against the ground so as to sequentially load the toe pulp. Pressure will noimally be transmitted
through the pulp to the underside of the nail plate. As toe of approaches the pulp pressure will lastly be
distally applied beneath the hyponychium and nail free edge. If the free edge is positioned correctly, the
compressive pressure upon the pulp will fall away as the load finally transfers to the apical aspect and toe
off occurs. But, if the free edge is cut too far back there will be no control of the pulp at this late stage.
The pulp will be expressed vertically beyond the plane in which the nail would have exerted control, thus
effectively rising up in front of the nail plate. Now, at the distal end of the nail plate are the medial and
lateral comers of the nail plate lying within the nail sulci. Gait dynamics force the uncontrolled, too-
flexible pulp and sulci onto the short nail plate edge and corners, which must take the pulp pressure. This
pressure is sometimes the origin of the onychocryptotic nail. Note that the pulp and sulci are pressed onto
the nail edge and corners, not the innocent nail through the pulp."

 

[Loudmouth]

Did you start with your strongest argument?

"Many important ligaments attach to the coccyx: The anterior and posterior sacrococcygeal ligaments are the continuations of the anterior and posterior longitudinal ligaments that stretches along the entire spine."

Vestigial does not mean "without function". Vestigial organs can still have function just as a broken typewriter can be used to pound in nails. Vestigial organs are those who only have a secondary or rudimentary function compared to the same organ in other species. In this case, ligaments attaching to the human coccyx is a very rudimentary and secondary function. The primary function of the coccyx is to support a tail, something that it does not do in humans (or in other apes). In fact, we still have the muscle used to lift the tail, the extensor coccygis. It actaully spans a fused joint in the coccyx. What good is a muscle when it can not flex a joint?