How did the universe come into existence?

[Peter1000]

Ok, but your opinion isn't evidence. And neither is pointing out the probabilities of a life-sustaining universe that may not be pertinent to the discussion, which was initially your position.

We know that our universe can produce life.
We know the value of the 4 forces that are necessary to produce life.
A scientist has calculated the odds of the 4 forces having the exact values that produce life as 1 in 10^125. To me, that is the evidence. Those odds are so great that any power that could possibly be thought of to produce life, other than a Superior Being is taken out of the equation.

So? I'm sure you could find countless specific traits a planet could have and find only one we know of that actually has it. In each of those cases, the planet would be "special" given the context that the particular trait is worthy of being special.

You are right of course, a planet may have a superior meteor hole, or a beautiful view of the cosmos, or an interesting barren peak, or a gaseous core or many beautiful colors, but I challenge you to find a planet with the hundreds of specialities that our planet enjoys, especially with teeming plant life, animal life, and human life. This is what I call special, the totality of the wonderful traits. No other planets that we can see (trillions) has these special traits, so what can I say, it's kind of special.

And believe me, I've probably read as much if not more than you on the subject.

Well, if you have, get on my side. Or tell us of another planet you have read about with the totality of special traits that you have read about our planet.

Science has gone away from 'random chance happening' because it is a lost case of probabilities. But when you boil all the evidence down, all they have is
'random chance happening. If you don't think so, tell what else they have?

 

[Dave Ellis]

When you have rolled a 32 sided die, 32 times, and landed on 18, 32 times in a row, come back to me and lets talk some more. But I am just going to ask you to go buy a 64 sided die and do the same thing, until we get to a 10^125 sided die. That is just the odds of the 4 forces coming into existence with the life giving values they need. When we talk about this earth coming into existence as special as it is, the odds go way closer to zero.
So good luck with your project.

Your reasoning is backward in this post.

Your argument rests on the idea that the universe is fine tuned for our type of life. In reality our type of life is fine tuned for the universe in which we arose. I'll expand on this explanation below.

You say, "the point is this universe has equal odds of forming as any other possible universe". You say that with such authority that I would love to read your evidence of this happening.

You are correct in saying that if the physical constants could have been absolutely anything that it'd be an extreme longshot that the universe would be as we see it now.

However if you have four physical constants, and the value of those constants could be any number, then there's equal odds of any universe occurring. It's just basic oddsmaking, any random four number set has the same odds as any other random four number set.

Some of those settings would produce a universe that can't support life, and other settings would produce a universe that can support life. It may be similar or it may be very different from what we experience, however it's life nonetheless. Those life forms would obviously be fine tuned for the universes they arose in as well.

God has power over life, matter, energy and the laws of nature and He has created life everywhere in the universe. We just can't see it with our finite instruments and travel abilities.

That's demonstrably false, we have been places where there is evidently no life. The moon for example.

As for god having supreme power, that renders fine tuning irrelevant. He'd be able to create life wherever and whenever he wants under any settings.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

We know that our universe can produce life.
We know the value of the 4 forces that are necessary to produce life.
A scientist has calculated the odds of the 4 forces having the exact values that produce life as 1 in 10^125. To me, that is the evidence. Those odds are so great that any power that could possibly be thought of to produce life, other than a Superior Being is taken out of the equation.

Once again... you've admitted that we don't know if the if the four physical constants are immutable. If they are, the probability of a universe like we have now is, of course, 100%. So until you can show evidence that the constants could have been different, the probability you mentioned doesn't matter in the slightest.

In addition (and again...), you're quoting the Penrose number as if it means anything. But unless you can show that there hasn't been, in addition to our universe, countless other universes with different properties, then the Penrose number implies nothing, because as the set size increases, the probability that any improbable outcome happens approaches 1.

You also can't show that among the set of possible universes, our universe isn't favored. Penrose himself uses the Weyl curvature hypothesis to show that the formation of the universe was constrained.

You are right of course, a planet may have a superior meteor hole, or a beautiful view of the cosmos, or an interesting barren peak, or a gaseous core or many beautiful colors, but I challenge you to find a planet with the hundreds of specialities that our planet enjoys, especially with teeming plant life, animal life, and human life. This is what I call special, the totality of the wonderful traits. No other planets that we can see (trillions) has these special traits, so what can I say, it's kind of special.

What you call "special" is just your opinion. It's not evidence of anything. Someone else could say, "the universe as a whole is incredibly hostile to life, therefore there is no god." That would be as much evidence to support the idea that there's no god as what you're calling evidence.

Well, if you have, get on my side. Or tell us of another planet you have read about with the totality of special traits that you have read about our planet.

The traits of the Earth aren't any more "special" to me than the traits of any other planet. I've established that. You're the one who's calling them special. You're like the person who finds a royal flush special, and a random mix of cards not special, while failing to realize that both are improbable.

Science has gone away from 'random chance happening' because it is a lost case of probabilities.

Science doesn't use the term "random chance happening" because it's not really the way the universe works.

 

[durangodawood]

Once again... you've admitted that we don't know if the if the four physical constants are immutable. If they are, the probability of a universe like we have now is, of course, 100%. ....

Right.

People here are always making extravagant claims that rest upon things we simply dont know.

 

[Peter1000]

ToddNotTodd says:

The traits of the Earth aren't any more "special" to me than the traits of any other planet. I've established that. You're the one who's calling them special. You're like the person who finds a royal flush special, and a random mix of cards not special, while failing to realize that both are improbable.

Sorry, but if this is really your opinion, I would not value any other opinion that you share. For instance, let's just compare Earth to Mars. My only comparison will be 1 question: Which planet would you rather live on. If you say Earth, then I will know you are not serious about the traits of the Earth are no more special that the traits of any other planet.

If you say Mars, then I will know that you are deaf and blind and just about senseless.

So which one is it? Earth or Mars?

 

[Dave Ellis]

ToddNotTodd says:


Sorry, but if this is really your opinion, I would not value any other opinion that you share. For instance, let's just compare Earth to Mars. My only comparison will be 1 question: Which planet would you rather live on. If you say Earth, then I will know you are not serious about the traits of the Earth are no more special that the traits of any other planet.

If you say Mars, then I will know that you are deaf and blind and just about senseless.

So which one is it? Earth or Mars?

You're missing the point. You're looking at it from a human centric vs universe or cosmos centric view.

The point is earth is only special to us because we live on it. We place the value on it, not the universe as a whole.

In the grand scheme of things, earth is a speck in the cosmos. If life does indeed exist abundantly in the universe, then there's nothing particularly special about earth at all (at least in the grand scheme of things).

 

[Aman777]

In the grand scheme of things, earth is a speck in the cosmos. If life does indeed exist abundantly in the universe, then there's nothing particularly special about earth at all (at least in the grand scheme of things).

The importance of planet Earth is the fact that the Ark, bringing Adam's superior intelligence, which is like God's, Gen 3:22 to this planet of Apes. That is WHEN we won the lottery. History records this event at some 11k years ago, in man's time.

Map: Fertile Cresent, 9000 to 4500 BCE

 

[Dave Ellis]

The importance of planet Earth is the fact that the Ark, bringing Adam's superior intelligence, which is like God's, Gen 3:22 to this planet of Apes. That is WHEN we won the lottery. History records this event at some 11k years ago, in man's time.

Map: Fertile Cresent, 9000 to 4500 BCE

Nice story, but there's no evidence it's actually true.

 

[Peter1000]

You're missing the point. You're looking at it from a human centric vs universe or cosmos centric view.

The point is earth is only special to us because we live on it. We place the value on it, not the universe as a whole.

In the grand scheme of things, earth is a speck in the cosmos. If life does indeed exist abundantly in the universe, then there's nothing particularly special about earth at all (at least in the grand scheme of things).

Earth is special because we 'can' live on it. Not because we 'do'.

As far as our telescopes can see, there is not another planet that anyone 'can' live on. If you don't think that is special then so be it, and that is from my human centric view. From the universe centric view, I believe there are many such earths scattered throughout the universe. They would be special too. We have not found one yet, but we have only mapped a whopping 1/trillionth of our own galaxy.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Sorry, but if this is really your opinion, I would not value any other opinion that you share.

I could not care less.

For instance, let's just compare Earth to Mars. My only comparison will be 1 question: Which planet would you rather live on. If you say Earth, then I will know you are not serious about the traits of the Earth are no more special that the traits of any other planet.

If you say Mars, then I will know that you are deaf and blind and just about senseless.

So which one is it? Earth or Mars?

Earth. And I'm still serious about not finding the "traits of the Earth" as more "special" than Mars. I prefer the traits of the Earth, since I'm a human who enjoys living, but "prefer" and "special" aren't synonyms to me.

And your analogy suffers from a flaw. Let's say there's intelligent life on another planet that thrives in conditions that would kill humans. According to you, we wouldn't think that their planet was as special, and they wouldn't think that our planet was more special.

It's all relative.

 

[Aman777]

Nice story, but there's no evidence it's actually true.

Sure there is BUT the traditional religious view has sent explorers to look for the Ark on top of a 16k foot mountain. The description in Genesis 8 shows that the 450 ft Ark arrived in the biggest Lake in Turkey, Lake Van, in the mountains of Ararat. Noah and his children walked down into the valleys of northern Mesopotamia, the Cradle of Human Civilization on Planet Earth. Our civilization can be traced to the arrival of the FIRST Humans (descendants of Adam) on this Earth some 11k years ago ACCORDING to History Map: Fertile Cresent, 9000 to 4500 BCE AND Scripture.

 

[Moral Orel]

I was once dealt a royal flush in a game of 5 card stud. The probability of this happening is 0.00000153908%. Ridiculously improbable. The person next to me didn't even have a pair. But the probability that he received the exact hand that he did is even lower than the probability I would receive a royal flush, because there are 4 possible royal flushes, and only 1 way to receive the hand he did.

Your 0.00000153908 chance of being dealt a royal flush is ridiculously improbable. So now add 114 zeros just after the decimal point to your chance and you have a number that represents the chance of the 4 forces being valued what they are. If your chance is rediculously improbable, what adjective do you give the 4 forces probability of being valued what they are by a chance happening? My adjective is still 'zero'.

Todd's royal flush analogy is a perfect way to describe what I explained earlier about changing the values of multiple forces vs changing the value of just one force.

There are 311875200 different hands that can be dealt in poker. Because there are four suits, there are four ways to make a royal flush. So the odds are 4:311875200. This is analogous to the values of the forces of the universe because if we change all of them in relation to one another, we can still have a universe with life.

You're comparing the four forces to the other hand that Todd mentioned, which would have the odds 1:311875200 because there is one and exactly one way to make that specific combination. But that is wrong, because there is more than one combination of values for the forces of the universe that makes a universe with life.

Now imagine a deck of cards with an infinite number of suits. Hearts, clubs, spades, diamonds, stars, horseshoes, balloons, etc... to infinity. So the number of different hands you can be dealt are infinite, but also, the number of ways you can make a royal flush are also infinite. So the odds of a universe that can produce life is infinity:infinity. But at the same time, the odds of a universe that doesn't produce life would also be infinity:infinity, so it just isn't calculable.

This is of course assuming that the laws of physics are changeable and have an origin to their existence, which there's no reason to assume.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Earth is special because we 'can' live on it. Not because we 'do'.

As far as our telescopes can see, there is not another planet that anyone 'can' live on. If you don't think that is special then so be it, and that is from my human centric view. From the universe centric view, I believe there are many such earths scattered throughout the universe. They would be special too. We have not found one yet, but we have only mapped a whopping 1/trillionth of our own galaxy.

If there are many earths scattered throughout the universe, then there isn't anything particularly special or unique about this one.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Sure there is BUT the traditional religious view has sent explorers to look for the Ark on top of a 16k foot mountain. The description in Genesis 8 shows that the 450 ft Ark arrived in the biggest Lake in Turkey, Lake Van, in the mountains of Ararat. Noah and his children walked down into the valleys of northern Mesopotamia, the Cradle of Human Civilization on Planet Earth. Our civilization can be traced to the arrival of the FIRST Humans (descendants of Adam) on this Earth some 11k years ago ACCORDING to History Map: Fertile Cresent, 9000 to 4500 BCE AND Scripture.

There's still no evidence the biblical story you're talking about is true... you're just making assertions.

In fact, there's a ton of evidence showing the flood and the Adam and Eve story are mythical.

 

[Aman777]

There's still no evidence the biblical story you're talking about is true... you're just making assertions.

False, since History agrees with Scripture and so does Science. Faith plus Fact equals God's Truth which NO man can refute.

*** In fact, there's a ton of evidence showing the flood and the Adam and Eve story are mythical.

False, since the traditional religious story is NOT the story in Genesis. Some 11k years ago, in the mountains of Ararat, Adam's firmament began to fill when the windows on top of the firmament were opened. As it sank into the Lake, it released the Ark into our biosphere. Adam's entire world was totally destroyed 2pet3:6 and is referred to as the world (Kosmos) that THEN WAS. The heavens and the earth, WHICH ARE NOW 2pet3:7 are reserved unto fire.

Do you think the heavens and the earth, which are now, are the same as Adam's universe, which then was, and was totally destroyed in the Flood?

 

[Dave Ellis]

False, since History agrees with Scripture and so does Science. Faith plus Fact equals God's Truth which NO man can refute.

That's false on all counts... history and science don't back up the biblical story except on fairly mundane points such as place names, etc.

False, since the traditional religious story is NOT the story in Genesis. Some 11k years ago, in the mountains of Ararat, Adam's firmament began to fill when the windows on top of the firmament were opened. As it sank into the Lake, it released the Ark into our biosphere. Adam's entire world was totally destroyed 2pet3:6 and is referred to as the world (Kosmos) that THEN WAS. The heavens and the earth, WHICH ARE NOW 2pet3:7 are reserved unto fire.

Do you think the heavens and the earth, which are now, are the same as Adam's universe, which then was, and was totally destroyed in the Flood?

I think the story is entirely mythical.

 

[Aman777]

That's false on all counts... history and science don't back up the biblical story except on fairly mundane points such as place names, etc.

I think the story is entirely mythical.

Not so UNLESS you can explain WHY today's Humans (descendants of Adam) have the superior intelligence of Adam, which is like God's, Gen 3:22 AND the DNA of prehistoric people inside our veins. Scripture explains and it's not myth, but instead Genesis reveals the only scientific way it can happen short of Magic. Mythical Adam MUST be literal or we all would be looking for a hole to sleep in tonight.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Not so UNLESS you can explain WHY today's Humans (descendants of Adam) have the superior intelligence of Adam, which is like God's, Gen 3:22 AND the DNA of prehistoric people inside our veins. Scripture explains and it's not myth, but instead Genesis reveals the only scientific way it can happen short of Magic. Mythical Adam MUST be literal or we all would be looking for a hole to sleep in tonight.

I reject your premises. There's no reason to believe Adam existed or that we all descended from him.

In fact, the genetic evidence proves we didn't descend from a single person.

 

[Aman777]

I reject your premises. There's no reason to believe Adam existed or that we all descended from him.

In fact, the genetic evidence proves we didn't descend from a single person.

Then please explain HOW we changed from prehistoric to Human. Explain the process of an entire population SUDDENLY becoming Human overnight. I say this since History shows that we SUDDENLY changed from an intelligence which had NEVER planted a crop, to farming, city building, and EVERY other trait of modern Humanity. To be precise, it happened within ONE generation.

The DNA evidence was inherited by Humans (descendants of Adam) when Noah's grandsons had NO other Humans to marry. Like Cain, they married and produced offspring with the prehistoric people (sons of God) who were already here when the Ark arrived.

We didn't descend from a single person since one was Human (Noah's grandson) and the other descended from the common ancestor of Apes. Put the two together and the offspring inherited the DNA of a prehistoric woman AND the superior intelligence of Adam which was like God's. Gen 3:22 SUDDENLY we changed from some one million people to the 7 Billion Humans (descendants of Adam) alive today.

Gen 3:22 ¶ And the LORD God (Jesus) said, Behold, the man (Adam) is become as one of Us, to know good and evil:

Only Humans know good and evil. The sons of God (prehistoric people) were innocent since they had NO way to inherit the superior intelligence of God which gave Humankind a choice to believe God or the world. God Bless you

 

[Dave Ellis]

Then please explain HOW we changed from prehistoric to Human. Explain the process of an entire population SUDDENLY becoming Human overnight. I say this since History shows that we SUDDENLY changed from an intelligence which had NEVER planted a crop, to farming, city building, and EVERY other trait of modern Humanity. To be precise, it happened within ONE generation.

We didn't go from everyone living semi-nomadic lives to everyone living in cities with fully developed agriculture in one generation. Not even close... In fact there's still some people living in semi-nomadic tribes today, thousands of years after the rise of civilization!

It was a gradual process that has taken tens if not hundreds of thousands of years.

The DNA evidence was inherited by Humans (descendants of Adam) when Noah's grandsons had NO other Humans to marry. Like Cain, they married and produced offspring with the prehistoric people (sons of God) who were already here when the Ark arrived.

What on earth does that even mean?

We didn't descend from a single person since one was Human (Noah's grandson) and the other descended from the common ancestor of Apes. Put the two together and the offspring inherited the DNA of a prehistoric woman AND the superior intelligence of Adam which was like God's. Gen 3:22 SUDDENLY we changed from some one million people to the 7 Billion Humans (descendants of Adam) alive today.

That's utterly ridiculous in every sense.

Gen 3:22 ¶ And the LORD God (Jesus) said, Behold, the man (Adam) is become as one of Us, to know good and evil:

Only Humans know good and evil. The sons of God (prehistoric people) were innocent since they had NO way to inherit the superior intelligence of God which gave Humankind a choice to believe God or the world. God Bless you

It's amusing you'd pick that verse to prove your point. Did you happen to notice that the gods speak in plural?

That's because that verse is a holdover from the earliest times of Judaism, when they believed in a pantheon of gods. Not the "one true god" that Jews and Christians worship today.