How did the universe come into existence?

[Moral Orel]

So when you say, 'I have no reason..', is that the same as saying, 'to my knowledge...'. Well to your knowledge or since you have no reason to think otherwise, then it is rather your opinion that things are the way they are.

It is your opinion that the 4 forces of the universe are eternal and have always been what they are.

It is your opinion that there are an incalculable amount of values that would allow for life in the universe.

So if my opinion is not a good premise for starting an argument, I would think that your opinion is not a good premise for starting an argument. So where does that lead us?

Correct, my opinion is not a good premise for starting an argument, that's why I'm not making one. You presented an argument that attempted to prove God exists, I showed that it doesn't work. I never said I was even attempting to prove no god(s) doesn't exist.

Side note: it is not my opinion that there are an incalculable amount of values that would allow for life in the universe. That one is math, and it is a provable fact.

Is this about people saying they saw God or people that went to another universe? Do you believe Trish LeSage? Tell me what evidences that she has presented that she visited a parallel universe, other than saying and describing that she did. Let me know, it is interesting.

Both. They are witness testimony. People claim to have seen and done all sorts of things all the time. Do you believe her just because she, and other people, say they visited other universes?

Are you aware of the Thomas story in the bible? If you are, you are in the same situation as he was. If you have not, look up the story about the apostle Thomas after Jesus had died.

I am aware of Thomas, and if I had the evidence he did, I would be convinced too. But since I don't and probably never will, I'll have to just be one of those who "haven't seen".

So in short, there is no reason to think the numbers could have been brought forth and managed by a Superior Being. The logic goes both ways. Unless you are stuck on 1 side, then you have a hard time seeing or having anything to do with the other side.

The existence of a god is plausible to me, but I have no good reason to believe one does other than some people believe one does. There are lots of things that are completely plausible that people believe exist aside from a god, but I don't believe they do because there's no good evidence. If a god exists and wants me to believe in him, he knows where I am and he can let me know. But I'm not going to put my faith in fallible people in order to put faith in a god.

 

[Peter1000]

Nicholas Deka says:

I am aware of Thomas, and if I had the evidence he did, I would be convinced too. But since I don't and probably never will, I'll have to just be one of those who "haven't seen".

Jesus told Thomas, blessed are those that have not seen me, but still believe.
I am one of those people. There are historical evidences that Jesus lived and died and that his apostles lived and died. I am willing to accept those evidences and along with a witness from the Holy Spirit, I can believe and live my life accordingly.

The existence of a god is plausible to me, but I have no good reason to believe one does other than some people believe one does. There are lots of things that are completely plausible that people believe exist aside from a god, but I don't believe they do because there's no good evidence. If a god exists and wants me to believe in him, he knows where I am and he can let me know. But I'm not going to put my faith in fallible people in order to put faith in a god.

God tells us that the earth itself is a witness of His creative powers. The reason I do the math, is because I believe that it is impossible for all of this incredible earth to come together in a natural way, all by itself. To me there is only 1 other road to go down. It is an easy choice. So if God is plausible to you, latch on and rejoice in every piece of information that comes out that can strengthen your grasp on Him.

God is a lot different than what most mainline Christians believe in. The true God and His Son Jesus Christ is an incredible story that starts eternities ago and comes forward into our time. We are in a long line of Gods that have learned over billions of years how to be omniscience. It takes billions of years to get where They are, but we can, and with that knowledge we can have the power to create also. So learn about the true God of heaven and be impressed and be ready for a journey beyond anything you can think of.[/QUOTE]

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I have no evidence that the laws are not immutable. I believe they are immutable.

So they could be immutable, so the discussion of how things would be if they were is pointless, until such time as we have evidence one way or the other.

A universe that can support life is 'special'. Compare any dark and dreary planet to the 'goldie locks' planet earth. Life lives on a knives edge. A slight movement one way of the other and it is all over. Read about how finely-tuned our universe is. It is special, and life on earth is not the only life in the universe.

All opinion.

Show me how a universe with life is objectively more "special" than one without. I don't think life makes a universe special at all.

I know how probability works. Take a 1,000,000 sided die and role it 1,000,000 times, and when you have rolled the number 15 1,000,000, times in a row, then call me and I will change my position from zero to something closer to 1.

If you think that something improbable, regardless of how improbable, has a zero percent chance of happening, you don't understand probability.

 

[Moral Orel]

Jesus told Thomas, blessed are those that have not seen me, but still believe.
I am one of those people. There are historical evidences that Jesus lived and died and that his apostles lived and died. I am willing to accept those evidences and along with a witness from the Holy Spirit, I can believe and live my life accordingly.

Of course I believe those people existed, I'm not diluted. There's just no evidence that there was anything divine about the story.

God is a lot different than what most mainline Christians believe in. The true God and His Son Jesus Christ is an incredible story that starts eternities ago and comes forward into our time. We are in a long line of Gods that have learned over billions of years how to be omniscience. It takes billions of years to get where They are, but we can, and with that knowledge we can have the power to create also. So learn about the true God of heaven and be impressed and be ready for a journey beyond anything you can think of.

Like I said, when God tells me He exists, I'll believe Him.

 

[devolved]

Like I said, when God tells me He exists, I'll believe Him.

Cells in our body live and die and are never aware that the brain exists. Brain communicates with these cells indirectly. If there is some "divine" hierarchy in this universe, it could be very similar in its structure.

I think some things are simply not for us to know or understand. Just like a cell in the body, we are only aware of our immediate environment. We may measure some light bouncing and make axiomatic assumptions about the size and age of the universe or how it functions at ita fundomental level.

But, ultimately we are a small part of a larger system... and it's not unreasonable to assume that just like the brain governs the body, there may be a higher order of intelligent processes that govern reality. That would be ... god. And it's highly unlikly that it would come down and speak to you in person. If it exists, it already commnicates indirectly.

 

[Peter1000]

So they could be immutable, so the discussion of how things would be if they were is pointless, until such time as we have evidence one way or the other.



All opinion.

Show me how a universe with life is objectively more "special" than one without. I don't think life makes a universe special at all.



If you think that something improbable, regardless of how improbable, has a zero percent chance of happening, you don't understand probability.

Ok if I don't understand probability, then take this challenge: take a 32 sided die. (one that is much more likely to be successful than the 10^125 sided die that is needed) You can buy this die on the internet. Roll the die once to determine what number to roll 31 more times in a row.
You can do it and get your whole community to buy a die and all do it at the same time. When one of you has rolled 'X' number, 25 times in a row, then the community needs to be notified and the last 7 rolls need to be witnessed by many.
So for instance roll the number '18', 32 times in a row.

If someone succeeds in doing this, then we will proceed to a 64 sided die, and so forth until we get to our 10^125 sided die.

You see, if a probability is 1 in 10^125, it does not mean that 'it is eventually going to happen'. It just means that 'if it is going to happen'... It does not guarantee that it will ever happen. It is like the 10^125 sided die. You may be able to roll the number 1,025, 10^125 times in a row, but because the probability is so close to zero, it is also saying that you will probably never be able to do it.

So do my challenge, go out and buy that 32 sided die. Once every day start a new roll, when you have rolled the number 'X', 25 times in a row, call me, and I will come and witness that last 7 rolls. Again, the low probability doesn't say that you will probably eventually do it, it says that you will probably eventually not do it.

 

[Dave Ellis]

I have no evidence that the laws are not immutable. I believe they are immutable. Changes to the laws was suggested by Deka, not me. I just said, if you change 1 value it would set off a colliding mess of uncontrollable chaos.

That's not necessarily true. There may be a great number of possible physical "settings" that would allow life in a given universe. It may be different than what we experience, but life nonetheless.

A universe that can support life is 'special'.

No it's not. We currently know of one universe, and that one universe supports life. That's a 100% success rate, that's not special.

Compare any dark and dreary planet to the 'goldie locks' planet earth. Life lives on a knives edge. A slight movement one way of the other and it is all over.

That's also false, the earth does have some variance to its orbit, sometimes it's a little closer, sometimes it's a little further away. The Goldilocks zone is larger than you think.

Read about how finely-tuned our universe is. It is special, and life on earth is not the only life in the universe. It may only be the only life in our galaxy, but I doubt it. It would take 100,000 years traveling at 640,000,000 miles an hour to cross our galaxy. You think in that much space you would find another earth? How many trillions of galaxies are there in our universe.

I agree given the size of the universe it's likely life has developed somewhere else as well.

Besides, how many universes do we know of that does not have any life?

We know of no other universes.

I know how probability works. Take a 1,000,000 sided die and role it 1,000,000 times, and when you have rolled the number 15 1,000,000, times in a row, then call me and I will change my position from zero to something closer to 1.

I dont mean to slur anyone, so tell me what phrase scientists use?

A very low probability doesn't equal zero. Impossibility equals zero probability, very low probability must mean there's at least some extreme longshot that it may occur (even if the odds of it happening are effectively 0%).

However, we have no way to gauge probability of the universe naturally forming. It's possible given the laws of nature that the universe forming may have been inevitable.

We don't know what is outside the universe or if there even is an outside the universe. If there is a multiverse, the laws that govern that may create universes like ours all the time. As for where the multiverse came from, it may be in a realm that operates nothing like our universe does. Time may or may not exist, creating or destroying matter and energy may not be a problem there. Who knows?

We have next to no information, it could be anything for all we know. Therefore you can't possibly create a reasonable probability measurement.

 

[durangodawood]

I am aware of only 2 possible answers to this question.

1) A random chance happening.
2) A Superior Being that had the knowledge to create.

The question is: Is there any other possible ways the universe could have come into existence besides the 2 ways that I have given above?

Thank you for your response.

Perhaps the universe never came into existence.
Perhaps it is eternal.

There's no rock solid reason why this could not be the case.

 

[Peter1000]

Perhaps the universe never came into existence.
Perhaps it is eternal.

There's no rock solid reason why this could not be the case.

Ok, can you make more of a case for this, it would be interesting.

 

[durangodawood]

Ok, can you make more of a case for this, it would be interesting.

You do understand that I'm not saying the universe definately IS uncaused and eternal..... right?

I'm saying no one has presented a good reason why it cannot be this way. And I think Ive heard them all. But I'm all ears!

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Ok if I don't understand probability, then take this challenge: take a 32 sided die. (one that is much more likely to be successful than the 10^125 sided die that is needed) You can buy this die on the internet. Roll the die once to determine what number to roll 31 more times in a row.
You can do it and get your whole community to buy a die and all do it at the same time. When one of you has rolled 'X' number, 25 times in a row, then the community needs to be notified and the last 7 rolls need to be witnessed by many.
So for instance roll the number '18', 32 times in a row.

If someone succeeds in doing this, then we will proceed to a 64 sided die, and so forth until we get to our 10^125 sided die.

You see, if a probability is 1 in 10^125, it does not mean that 'it is eventually going to happen'. It just means that 'if it is going to happen'... It does not guarantee that it will ever happen. It is like the 10^125 sided die. You may be able to roll the number 1,025, 10^125 times in a row, but because the probability is so close to zero, it is also saying that you will probably never be able to do it.

So do my challenge, go out and buy that 32 sided die. Once every day start a new roll, when you have rolled the number 'X', 25 times in a row, call me, and I will come and witness that last 7 rolls. Again, the low probability doesn't say that you will probably eventually do it, it says that you will probably eventually not do it.

If the physical laws are immutable, then things couldn't be any way other than the way they are. And since you don't know if they are or aren't immutable, any talk of probabilities means nothing. Your challenge is meaningless unless you can show that the physical laws could be different than what they are now.

And as for your challenge, you're still not getting that something improbable doesn't equate to impossible. You're also not factoring time or sample size in the equation. If there's a "cosmos" that spawns universes, you have no idea how many universes could have been created (since we only experience one), nor do you know how long this process could have been taking place. The larger the set of created universes, the more probable improbable universes becomes.

And one last thing regarding "special" universes. I was once dealt a royal flush in a game of 5 card stud. The probability of this happening is 0.00000153908%. Ridiculously improbable. The person next to me didn't even have a pair. But the probability that he received the exact hand that he did is even lower than the probability I would receive a royal flush, because there are 4 possible royal flushes, and only 1 way to receive the hand he did. Yet my hand was seen as "special" and his was not. But it's only special in the context of poker, and not special in any other context.

Likewise, a universe that supports life is only special because we place importance on it. It's not special outside that context.

 

[Peter1000]

You do understand that I'm not saying the universe definately IS uncaused and eternal..... right?

I'm saying no one has presented a good reason why it cannot be this way. And I think Ive heard them all. But I'm all ears!

As far as I know, there is no evidence pro or con that the universe is or is not eternal. It is an interesting question.

At one time the top theory from science was the universe is eternal and was a continuously changing, and an almost living universe. Then science observed that the universe was expanding, and that brought into focus the big bang theory that now pretty much overshadows the universe is eternal theory.

So which theory do you lean towards?

 

[durangodawood]

As far as I know, there is no evidence pro or con that the universe is or is not eternal. It is an interesting question.

At one time the top theory from science was the universe is eternal and was a continuously changing, and an almost living universe. Then science observed that the universe was expanding, and that brought into focus the big bang theory that now pretty much overshadows the universe is eternal theory.

So which theory do you lean towards?

Big bang doesnt contradict an eternal cosmos. I think the big bang idea is pretty solid, so I lean there. But what possible eternal order of budding universes birthed our big bang is anybody's guess as far as I can tell.

I dont even know if I "lean" really. Too many unknowns to be leaning without support.

 

[Peter1000]

If the physical laws are immutable, then things couldn't be any way other than the way they are. And since you don't know if they are or aren't immutable, any talk of probabilities means nothing. Your challenge is meaningless unless you can show that the physical laws could be different than what they are now.

If the laws are changeable, then I believe that the Superior Being gave the value to the forces that He needed to create life.

If the laws are immutable, then I believe that the Superior Being uses the immutable laws that give the value to the forces in a way that benefits Him and mankind.

So to me either way, I believe that the Superior Being has control of life in the universe.

And you are right, if the laws are immutable, the challenge of the probability of the 4 forces being what they are is useless.

And as for your challenge, you're still not getting that something improbable doesn't equate to impossible. You're also not factoring time or sample size in the equation. If there's a "cosmos" that spawns universes, you have no idea how many universes could have been created (since we only experience one), nor do you know how long this process could have been taking place. The larger the set of created universes, the more probable improbable universes becomes.

If there is a "cosmos" that spawns universes is the $64,000,000 question. So until we know there is a cosmos that spawns universes, your probability problem/answer is useless too.

And one last thing regarding "special" universes. I was once dealt a royal flush in a game of 5 card stud. The probability of this happening is 0.00000153908%. Ridiculously improbable. The person next to me didn't even have a pair. But the probability that he received the exact hand that he did is even lower than the probability I would receive a royal flush, because there are 4 possible royal flushes, and only 1 way to receive the hand he did. Yet my hand was seen as "special" and his was not. But it's only special in the context of poker, and not special in any other context.

Your 0.00000153908 chance of being dealt a royal flush is ridiculously improbable. So now add 114 zeros just after the decimal point to your chance and you have a number that represents the chance of the 4 forces being valued what they are. If your chance is rediculously improbable, what adjective do you give the 4 forces probability of being valued what they are by a chance happening? My adjective is still 'zero'.

Besides, let's for arguments sake, say that the 4 forces are immutable. So what you have is a stable universe that has the forces to start forming stars and planets. But of the stars and planets that science knows of, only 1 has teeming life.

What do you think the probability is that 1 planet out of trillions of planets developed by blind chance, it's own atmosphere that can produce life. How many planets have exactly the right amount of heat and sunlight and ultraviolet rays, etc., etc., etc. There are hundreds of special cycles and values that are needed to maintain an earth like ours. The probabilities are impossible to even calculate, and certainly so close to zero, that I am very comfortable with a zero probability it could come about by blind chance.

If you don't think this earth is special, you need to keep reading about it.

 

[Peter1000]

Big bang doesnt contradict an eternal cosmos. I think the big bang idea is pretty solid, so I lean there. But what possible eternal order of budding universes birthed our big bang is anybody's guess as far as I can tell.

I dont even know if I "lean" really. Too many unknowns to be leaning without support.

If you believe that there are multiple universes, then the big bang theory represents to you the beginning of this universe, but not necessarily the beginning fo the first universe.

You could be right about that, and I could probably be inclined to believe you.

 

[durangodawood]

If you believe that there are multiple universes, then the big bang theory represents to you the beginning of this universe, but not necessarily the beginning fo the first universe.

You could be right about that, and I could probably be inclined to believe you.

I dont believe that there definitely ARE. But I do think there could be, and if I had to bet, thats what Id pick

 

[Aman777]

If you believe that there are multiple universes, then the big bang theory represents to you the beginning of this universe, but not necessarily the beginning fo the first universe.

You could be right about that, and I could probably be inclined to believe you.

Genesis 1:8 shows that the first firmament, which God called "Heaven" was made the 2nd Day. Gen 2:4 shows that other "HeavenS" were made on the 3rd Day, the Same Day Adam's Earth was made. Gen 1:10 One on the 2nd Day and otherS on the 3rd Day means that God made a multiverse composed of at least 3 Heavens or universes. That's God's literal Truth in Genesis authored by God, Himself.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

If the laws are changeable, then I believe that the Superior Being gave the value to the forces that He needed to create life.

If the laws are immutable, then I believe that the Superior Being uses the immutable laws that give the value to the forces in a way that benefits Him and mankind.

So to me either way, I believe that the Superior Being has control of life in the universe.

And you are right, if the laws are immutable, the challenge of the probability of the 4 forces being what they are is useless.

Ok, but your opinion isn't evidence. And neither is pointing out the probabilities of a life-sustaining universe that may not be pertinent to the discussion, which was initially your position.

If there is a "cosmos" that spawns universes is the $64,000,000 question. So until we know there is a cosmos that spawns universes, your probability problem/answer is useless too.

I don't have an answer, and I'm not positing a claim. You're the one doing that. I'm just reacting to it by showing the flaws in your argument.

Your 0.00000153908 chance of being dealt a royal flush is ridiculously improbable. So now add 114 zeros just after the decimal point to your chance and you have a number that represents the chance of the 4 forces being valued what they are.

You know this for a fact? Please provide evidence that the laws of nature could be different than what they are, and that the improbability is actually what you claim.

If your chance is rediculously improbable, what adjective do you give the 4 forces probability of being valued what they are by a chance happening? My adjective is still 'zero'.

And you're still wrong.

Besides, let's for arguments sake, say that the 4 forces are immutable. So what you have is a stable universe that has the forces to start forming stars and planets. But of the stars and planets that science knows of, only 1 has teeming life.

So? I'm sure you could find countless specific traits a planet could have and find only one we know of that actually has it. In each of those cases, the planet would be "special" given the context that the particular trait is worthy of being special.

You're still thinking that our planet is "more special" because it supports life. And while your opinion matters to you, it's not evidence of anything. Someone else could find a lifeless planet "more special" because of some particular trait. Neither of you would be wrong, since we're talking about opinions, but neither of you have evidence of anything objective.

What do you think the probability is that 1 planet out of trillions of planets developed by blind chance, it's own atmosphere that can produce life.

We don't know what the conditions are on "trillions of planets".

How many planets have exactly the right amount of heat and sunlight and ultraviolet rays, etc., etc., etc. There are hundreds of special cycles and values that are needed to maintain an earth like ours. The probabilities are impossible to even calculate, and certainly so close to zero, that I am very comfortable with a zero probability it could come about by blind chance.

I'm sure it's been pointed out to you before that science doesn't say that anything happens by "blind chance". It's just what Christians say when espousing fallacious arguments.

And again, it doesn't matter what the odds are if the sample size is large enough (you're the one pointing out how many planets there might be), and the timeline long enough.

And, your argument is really just an argument from incredulity fallacy.

If you don't think this earth is special, you need to keep reading about it.

I don't think it's any more "special" than any other planet, just like I don't think a royal flush is any more "special" than any other arrangement of five playing cards.

And believe me, I've probably read as much if not more than you on the subject.

 

[Dave Ellis]

If the laws are changeable, then I believe that the Superior Being gave the value to the forces that He needed to create life.

If the laws are immutable, then I believe that the Superior Being uses the immutable laws that give the value to the forces in a way that benefits Him and mankind.

So to me either way, I believe that the Superior Being has control of life in the universe.

And you are right, if the laws are immutable, the challenge of the probability of the 4 forces being what they are is useless.


If there is a "cosmos" that spawns universes is the $64,000,000 question. So until we know there is a cosmos that spawns universes, your probability problem/answer is useless too.


Your 0.00000153908 chance of being dealt a royal flush is ridiculously improbable. So now add 114 zeros just after the decimal point to your chance and you have a number that represents the chance of the 4 forces being valued what they are. If your chance is rediculously improbable, what adjective do you give the 4 forces probability of being valued what they are by a chance happening? My adjective is still 'zero'.

Besides, let's for arguments sake, say that the 4 forces are immutable. So what you have is a stable universe that has the forces to start forming stars and planets. But of the stars and planets that science knows of, only 1 has teeming life.

What do you think the probability is that 1 planet out of trillions of planets developed by blind chance, it's own atmosphere that can produce life. How many planets have exactly the right amount of heat and sunlight and ultraviolet rays, etc., etc., etc. There are hundreds of special cycles and values that are needed to maintain an earth like ours. The probabilities are impossible to even calculate, and certainly so close to zero, that I am very comfortable with a zero probability it could come about by blind chance.

If you don't think this earth is special, you need to keep reading about it.

The flaw in your argument is that you have the same odds of drawing a royal flush as you do any other hand of five specific cards.

You have the same odds of drawing a two of hearts, four of spades, seven of clubs, ten of clubs and queen of diamonds as you do a royal flush. The only difference is the royal flush has a preassigned value to it.

The point is this universe has equal odds of forming as any other possible universe.

Secondly, if god has power over life, matter, energy and the laws of nature he'd be able to create life anywhere. Fine tuning therefore becomes irrelevant.

 

[Peter1000]

The flaw in your argument is that you have the same odds of drawing a royal flush as you do any other hand of five specific cards.

You have the same odds of drawing a two of hearts, four of spades, seven of clubs, ten of clubs and queen of diamonds as you do a royal flush. The only difference is the royal flush has a preassigned value to it.

The point is this universe has equal odds of forming as any other possible universe.

Secondly, if god has power over life, matter, energy and the laws of nature he'd be able to create life anywhere. Fine tuning therefore becomes irrelevant.

When you have rolled a 32 sided die, 32 times, and landed on 18, 32 times in a row, come back to me and lets talk some more. But I am just going to ask you to go buy a 64 sided die and do the same thing, until we get to a 10^125 sided die. That is just the odds of the 4 forces coming into existence with the life giving values they need. When we talk about this earth coming into existence as special as it is, the odds go way closer to zero.
So good luck with your project.

You say, "the point is this universe has equal odds of forming as any other possible universe". You say that with such authority that I would love to read your evidence of this happening.

God has power over life, matter, energy and the laws of nature and He has created life everywhere in the universe. We just can't see it with our finite instruments and travel abilities.