How can you determine which is true?

[JohnB445]

I am assured there will be a pre-tribulation rapture, so it doesn't apply to me.

The ones who are left are the Gentiles and Jews(People of Jacob), who have to endure to the end and not take the mark.

I'll be leaving with the rapture.

 

[Oldmantook]

I am assured there will be a pre-tribulation rapture, so it doesn't apply to me.

The ones who are left are the Gentiles and Jews(People of Jacob), who have to endure to the end and not take the mark.

I'll be leaving with the rapture.

It may not apply to you but again you ignore Rev 14:12 where it clearly states that the SAINTS are present and are admonished to persevere. I prefer to believe God's Word. I suggest you do the same.

 

[bcbsr]

I specifically asked you if YOU sin? I asked you if you practice sin? Simple questions which you neglected to answer. I suppose you would answer yes to the first question unless you consider yourself to be totally sinless and no to the second question. By answering yes to the first question totally negates your claim that genuine Christians will always choose not to sin. Even genuine Christians occasionally sin - yes or no?? HOWEVER, not all Christians choose not to practice sin. FYI, did you not even notice that the present tense verb 1 Jn 3:9 regarding sin is continuing or practicing sin? I repeat all Christians sin, but not all Christians continue or practice sin and therein lies the difference that you fail to account for.
Moreover, you even fail to read Rom 8:1 correctly because you ignore v.4 which follows it. There is no condemnation for those who are Christ Jesus (v.1). - "in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit" (v.4) There is no condemnation - only for those who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Those Christians who choose to live in the flesh - are condemned. Your interpretation of the gospel of grace simply amounts to a license to sin. That is why Paul warns the brethren if they live according to the flesh, they will die (v.13). Scripture interprets scripture doesn't it?

No mention of "choice" in 1John 3:9. It is simply a fact that no one who HAS BEEN born of God continues to sin. The perfect tense is used, which according to the Greek Lexicon "describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated." Thus those who have been born of God walk according to the Spirit. That is their lifestyle. And that is my lifestyle. Those who are according to the flesh don't understand the spirit of what Paul and John are writing and so misconstrue them to be advocating a salvation by works soteriology. "We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us." 1John 4:6 Apparently you don't hear what the scriptures are teaching.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

IF His seed continues in him. IF he does not habitually sin. IF, IF IF....

see Wuest's Expanded Greek Translation (I don't think it is available online).

The insinuations (apparently YOU don't hear) presented in 123 seem to indicate a wrong motive without a basis of truth.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I am assured there will be a pre-tribulation rapture, so it doesn't apply to me.
The ones who are left are the Gentiles and Jews(People of Jacob), who have to endure to the end and not take the mark.
I'll be leaving with the rapture.

Remember that Jesus said whoever follows Him WILL suffer persecution, NOT escape it.

So then, just who is it that 'assured' something else contrary to Jesus Word ?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Since "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God" 1JOhn 3:9, then there's no possibility of falling away. And that fact is confirmed in the same epistle where John states, "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1John 2:19 Thus passages such as Romans 8 which speak of there being no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus, are simply describing the behavior of those who have been born of God. This as opposed to the suggestion by you salvation by works Christians who view one's performance as a condition for salvation.

Furthermore the very concept of being born is uni-directional. Having been born a person cannot become "unborn", as you suggest. And as for "in Christ Jesus", it is written:

Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (Nothing about works) Sealed for eternity, having come to belong to Christ.

You salvation by works Christians put your trust in your own performance to save you, this as opposed to trusting in Christ to save you. And since you don't put your faith in Christ you don't qualify to be saved. One evidence that a person belongs to Christ is that they affirm the gospel of grace. Testifying against the gospel, making salvation out to be a matter of one's performance is evidence to the contrary.

Yes we are forever sealed with the Holy Spirit. It doesn’t say we are sealed with salvation. Do we lose our free will when we receive the Holy Spirit? What did Paul say just 3 chapters later about being sealed with the Holy Spirit? Let’s continue reading together shall we?

“And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, in whom ye were sealed unto the day of redemption.

This proves that people who are sealed with the Holy Spirit can still disobey out of their own free will.

Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamor, and railing, be put away from you, with all malice: and be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving each other, even as God also in Christ forgave you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:30-32‬ ‭ASV‬‬

Let’s continue in Paul’s message with the next chapter.

“Be ye therefore imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, even as Christ also loved you, and gave himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for an odor of a sweet smell. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as becometh saints; nor filthiness, nor foolish talking, or jesting, which are not befitting: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know of a surety, that no fornicator, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no man deceive you with empty words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-6‬ ‭ASV‬‬

Now those who greave the Holy Spirit have no inheritance in the Kingdom and will suffer God’s wrath. Why? because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the sons of disobedience.

These people who greave the Holy Spirit are no longer sons of God but yet we see that they were once sons of God and are still sealed with the Holy Spirit. Now they are the sons of disobedience. These people will still forever be convicted of their disobedience by the Holy Spirit because they have received knowledge from Him that they will never forget and will always be called to repentance. However they are never forced to repentance.

 

[bcbsr]

For this ye know of a surety, that no fornicator, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no man deceive you with empty words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-6‬ ‭ASV‬‬

This is not giving conditions for salvation as you construe it to be, in accordance with your salvation by work soteriology, but rather is simply describing the lifestyle of those who are not saved. But of those who have been born of God it is written, "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." 1JOhn 3:9 Note the perfect tense is used which according to the Greek Lexicon "describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated." And thus once born of God, always born of God. And once born of God, the person no longer continues to sin. That's what John says, believe it, or be an unbeliever.

 

[BNR32FAN]

This is not giving conditions for salvation as you construe it to be, in accordance with your salvation by work soteriology, but rather is simply describing the lifestyle of those who are not saved. But of those who have been born of God it is written, "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." 1JOhn 3:9 Note the perfect tense is used which according to the Greek Lexicon "describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated." And thus once born of God, always born of God. And once born of God, the person no longer continues to sin. That's what John says, believe it, or be an unbeliever.

Where does it imply once and for all time? That is an addition according to your beliefs not supported by scripture. The words “has been” is not in the Greek text.

1 John 3:9

9 Πᾶς (Whosoever) G3956 Adj-NMS ὁ (the) G3588 Art-NMS γεγεννημένος (born) G1080 V-RPM/P-NMS ἐκ (of) G1537 Prep τοῦ (the) G3588 Art-GMS θεοῦ (God) G2316 N-GMS ἁμαρτίαν (sin) G266 N-AFS οὐ (not) G3756 Adv ποιεῖ (practices) G4160 V-PIA-3S ὅτι (because) G3754 Conj σπέρμα (seed) G4690 N-NNS αὐτοῦ (him) G846 PPro-GM3S ἐν (in) G1722 Prep αὐτῷ (him) G846 PPro-DM3S μένει (abides) G3306 V-PIA-3S καὶ (and) G2532 Conj οὐ (not) G3756 Adv δύναται (cannot) G1410 V-PIM/P-3S ἁμαρτάνειν (sin) G264 V-PNA ὅτι (because) G3754 Conj ἐκ (of) G1537 Prep τοῦ (the) G3588 Art-GMS θεοῦ (God) G2316 N-GMS γεγέννηται (born) G1080 V-RIM/P-3S

Whosoever the born of the God sin not practices because seed him in him abides and not cannot sin because of the God born.

Who doesn’t commit a single sin after being born again? Everyone does. Being born again means someone is a child of God.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

born


G1080


Lemma:

γεννάω


Transliteration:

gennáō


Pronounce:

ghen-nah'-o


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) of men who fathered children a) to be born b) to be begotten

1) of women giving birth to children

2) metaph. a) to engender, cause to arise, excite b) in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone c) of God making Christ his son d) of God making men his sons through faith in Christ's work

While we refrain from sin we are acting as children of God when we do sin we are acting as children of disobedience. Of course we know every Christian still sins. Are none born again? Nowhere in the scriptures does it imply being born again is a “once and for all” event.

 

[BNR32FAN]

This is not giving conditions for salvation as you construe it to be, in accordance with your salvation by work soteriology, but rather is simply describing the lifestyle of those who are not saved. But of those who have been born of God it is written, "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." 1JOhn 3:9 Note the perfect tense is used which according to the Greek Lexicon "describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated." And thus once born of God, always born of God. And once born of God, the person no longer continues to sin. That's what John says, believe it, or be an unbeliever.

Never have I taught salvation by works. I teach salvation by faith and I teach that faith WILL undoubtedly produce works if the person has the ability and if a person who has the ability to do works and continuously refuses they are not abiding in Christ. That’s what I teach. You teach that abiding is not necessary for salvation but have continuously failed to explain John 15:1-8 in the correct context. It just doesn’t coincide with salvation without abiding.

 

[bcbsr]

Where does it imply once and for all time? That is an addition according to your beliefs not supported by scripture. The words “has been” is not in the Greek text.

Yes they are "Whoever has been born of God" NKJV "has been" is the English translation of the perfect tense in the Greek.

Furthermore the term "born" itself is uni-direction. Having been born a person cannot be unborn as you allege.

 

[bcbsr]

Never have I taught salvation by works. I teach salvation by faith and I teach that faith WILL undoubtedly produce works if the person has the ability and if a person who has the ability to do works and continuously refuses they are not abiding in Christ. That’s what I teach. You teach that abiding is not necessary for salvation but have continuously failed to explain John 15:1-8 in the correct context. It just doesn’t coincide with salvation without abiding.

You're teaching that salvation is conditioned upon a person's ongoing performance. So yes, that is salvation by works.

 

[Oldmantook]

No mention of "choice" in 1John 3:9. It is simply a fact that no one who HAS BEEN born of God continues to sin. The perfect tense is used, which according to the Greek Lexicon "describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated." Thus those who have been born of God walk according to the Spirit. That is their lifestyle. And that is my lifestyle. Those who are according to the flesh don't understand the spirit of what Paul and John are writing and so misconstrue them to be advocating a salvation by works soteriology. "We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us." 1John 4:6 Apparently you don't hear what the scriptures are teaching.

Yes, the perfect tense verb does indeed refer to a completed action i.e. born again. It refers to someone who has been genuinely saved. However, the verb which follows "poiei" is a present tense verb as indicated: No one born of God makes (poiei | ποιεῖ | pres act ind 3 sg) a (poiei | ποιεῖ | pres act ind 3 sg) practice (poiei | ποιεῖ | pres act ind 3 sg) of (poiei | ποιεῖ | pres act ind 3 sg) sinning, because God’s seed abides in him. He cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.
This verse states that those born of God (completed action) cannot keep sinning; i.e. make a practice of sin. Your claim that no choice is involved is an argument of silence which is the weakest from of argumentation. Moreover, you neglect to even account for the previous verse which plainly states "Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning." Whoever means anyone including believers and unbelievers. Therefore believers do indeed have a choice to practice sin - which makes them children of the devil - instead of children of God. OR to not practice sin and instead practice righteousness: "Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous (v.7). Little children can only refer to believers. Those believers who practice righteousness are righteous. The contrast is clear. Believers who practice righteousness demonstrate that they remain born again. On the other hand, believers who practice sin no longer remain saved and instead are now children of the devil.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes they are "Whoever has been born of God" NKJV "has been" is the English translation of the perfect tense in the Greek.

Furthermore the term "born" itself is uni-direction. Having been born a person cannot be unborn as you allege.

As I showed the words “has been” is not in the Greek text. The word “ho” G 3588 is more accurately translated to “is” as shown in the KJV, and ASV, probably the most accurate would be the ESV as the word “ho” is often omitted from English translations. We see this example in this very same verse where “ho” G3588 is omitted as it appears between the words “of” and “God”. In this aspect I think the ESV is a better translation because the word “ho” 3588 does not translate to “has been”.

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭ASV‬‬

“No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭ESV‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes they are "Whoever has been born of God" NKJV "has been" is the English translation of the perfect tense in the Greek.

Furthermore the term "born" itself is uni-direction. Having been born a person cannot be unborn as you allege.

The term born according to the full definition I provided in my previous post is not unidirectional. Perhaps your confusing it with the English definition of the word.

not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

born


G1080


Lemma:

γεννάω


Transliteration:

gennáō


Pronounce:

ghen-nah'-o


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) of men who fathered children a) to be born b) to be begotten

1) of women giving birth to children

2) metaph. a) to engender, cause to arise, excite b) in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone c) of God making Christ his son d) of God making men his sons through faith in Christ's work

Obviously the first two definitions do not apply to the context of 1 John3:9. Only the third definition can apply which is not an irreversible state or situation.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I have seen both views on eternal security. I honestly don't know for sure.

Born Again Pentecostals will say since we have free will, it is possible for man to turn away from God after being saved, and then Born Again Calvinist will say its impossible to fall away once they are born again and sealed by the Holy Spirit they are eternally secure.

Although I believe we have free will, the idea of one turning away from God after being born again in the future sounds bizarre.

The weight (Importance) of the doctrine of eternal security I figured is low.
If one believes its impossible to fall away once the Holy Spirit indwells and they are born again, it results in an assurance that in the future they will persevere and that they are predestined salvation in the future.

If one believes by free will they can apostatize after being born again, that will result in them being more steadfast in their faith as opposed to absolute comfort when it comes to the future.

Both come up with good arguments, don't know which one.

I do find it a little biased that you put everyone who believes in OSAS in the Calvinist camp.

Truly, there is a solid Biblical argument for OSAS that does not fall under either the Armenian or Calvinist POV.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes they are "Whoever has been born of God" NKJV "has been" is the English translation of the perfect tense in the Greek.

Furthermore the term "born" itself is uni-direction. Having been born a person cannot be unborn as you allege.

As I’ve shown in my last two posts you are incorrect.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You're teaching that salvation is conditioned upon a person's ongoing performance. So yes, that is salvation by works.

And you still refuse to address John 15:1-8 specifically teaches that abiding is absolutely required for salvation. I’m just the messenger not the author my friend.

 

[ToBeLoved]

As is fairly common, Scripture can be used to support more than one view on this matter. The church, however, has historically taught that one can lose salvation, that we can have a level of assurance based on our fruits and experience, but not 100% certainty. A healthy degree of uncertainty in light of our limitations and weaknesses is in order.

And I see that as lack of faith. If the blood of Jesus has saved you from sin and created a new creation in you, adopted you as a son and sealed you until the Day of Redemption in God Himself, the Holy Spirit, then the lack of faith comes from God not being able to firmly hold you in His Hand. Jesus failure to loose what the Father has given Him (which Jesus says NONE Are lost, but the son of perdition (Judas)) and the lack of faith that God sealed you in Himself and you are a co-heir with Christ as an adopted Son.

It is not whether WE are enough, but are GOD’S promises and Justness enough.

Lack of faith in God.

God does the holding and is just and righteous to keep HIS PROMISES

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes, the perfect tense verb does indeed refer to a completed action i.e. born again. It refers to someone who has been genuinely saved. However, the verb which follows "poiei" is a present tense verb as indicated: No one born of God makes (poiei | ποιεῖ | pres act ind 3 sg) a (poiei | ποιεῖ | pres act ind 3 sg) practice (poiei | ποιεῖ | pres act ind 3 sg) of (poiei | ποιεῖ | pres act ind 3 sg) sinning, because God’s seed abides in him. He cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.
This verse states that those born of God (completed action) cannot keep sinning; i.e. make a practice of sin. Your claim that no choice is involved is an argument of silence which is the weakest from of argumentation. Moreover, you neglect to even account for the previous verse which plainly states "Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning." Whoever means anyone including believers and unbelievers. Therefore believers do indeed have a choice to practice sin - which makes them children of the devil - instead of children of God. OR to not practice sin and instead practice righteousness: "Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous (v.7). Little children can only refer to believers. Those believers who practice righteousness are righteous. The contrast is clear. Believers who practice righteousness demonstrate that they remain born again. On the other hand, believers who practice sin no longer remain saved and instead are now children of the devil.

I’ve already shown that sons of God can later become sons of disobedience in Ephesians. Please read post 126 brother.

 

[bcbsr]

This verse states that those born of God (completed action) cannot keep sinning; i.e. make a practice of sin. Your claim that no choice is involved is an argument of silence which is the weakest from of argumentation.

The verse makes a clear an unambiguous statement of fact using the indicative. "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 It is not subjunctive. No "if" clause. "cannot" also indicates inability and therefore it's not a matter of choice, but as it clearly states - because he has been born of God.

Moreover, you neglect to even account for the previous verse which plainly states "Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning."

Nope didn't neglect it. Given that, as you even admit "Whoever has been born of God does not sin", therefore the "whoever" of the previous verse cannot logically refer to those who have been born of God.

The theme of 1John is distinguishing children of God from children of the devil among the Christian community, as verse 10 also reveals. "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." "This is how we know" indicates that there is (indicative - statement of fact) a characteristic difference between children of God and children of the devil, as explained in verse 9, by which you can distinguish the two.

All this I've of course explained to you and others before. But I take it you weren't paying attention given that the facts disprove your position.