He was cast out of heaven (depicting the fact that he doesn't belong in heaven).DavidPT said:If satan was cast out around the time of the cross, which seems reasonable to me, where does this leave any room for him being bound a thousand years?
Satan is a spirit - so it's not literal chains and pits that restrain him....that's metaphorical and symbolic language.
He was cast out of heaven (depicting the fact that he doesn't belong in heaven).
Why does this NOT "leave any room for him being bound a thousand years" to you?
That's YOUR presumption that you are imposing on the text. The text merely states that satan was bound specifically from deceiving the nations.It's how he is being depicted that counts. Why use real world imagery, where if something similar happened in the real world, such as someone being bound with a chain, then cast into a pit, then locked up, this person would be cut off from the outside world entirely?
I don't disagree with that.Whenever real world imagery is used, the situation has to match the imagery used.
or the millennium has already come and gone and it's now the season of Gog and MagogThe reference to the 42-months at revelation 13:5 is not referring to Satan. It refers to the "wild Beast" the "dragon [Satan]...gave the authority to...."
At Matthew 4:8, 9, Satan claimed to have authority over the kingdoms of the world. Jesus did not dispute this.-Compare 5:19; John 14:30; 2 Corinthians 4:4; 1 John 2:15-17.
Satan was not "bound" in the past and is not bound now because the "great tribulation" has not come to pass nor has the resurrection begun.
I'm not decided yet as to who or what I believe about the dragon in Revelation 12 (I realize that satan is definitely - at least - influencing whomever it is....but ISTM it could be pagan Rome, influenced by satan and not merely satan alone).The text indicates that an angel comes down from heaven, then casts him into the BP. Where would the angel be coming down to if not the earth? If the angel is coming down to the earth, wouldn't it be because that is where satan would currently be residing? But according to Revelation 12, when satan sees he has been cast to the earth, he doesn't find himself cast into the pit, then locked away. Instead he finds himself setting out to persecute the woman that brought forth the manchild, thus he is loose at the time.
The text indicates that an angel comes down from heaven, then casts him into the BP. Where would the angel be coming down to if not the earth? If the angel is coming down to the earth, wouldn't it be because that is where satan would currently be residing? But according to Revelation 12, when satan sees he has been cast to the earth, he doesn't find himself cast into the pit, then locked away. Instead he finds himself setting out to persecute the woman that brought forth the manchild, thus he is loose at the time.
Mat 12:26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?
Mat 12:27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges.
Mat 12:28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Mat_12:29 Or how can one enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.
Did the kingdom of God come in verse 28 above, and is it connected to binding?
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I'm not decided yet as to who or what I believe about the dragon in Revelation 12 (I realize that satan is definitely - at least - influencing whomever it is....but ISTM it could be pagan Rome, influenced by satan and not merely satan alone).
Here are a few commentaries:
Verse 4: In the first half of verse 4, speaking of the dragon with seven heads and 10 horns, we read:
“His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.”
There is reason to believe that these “stars” are angels. In Revelation 1:20, stars are seen as angels: “…The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches…” Here in verse 4, the dragon is able to throw stars to the earth, but in verses 9-12 we see that “the great dragon…that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan” would himself be cast out of heaven to the earth, along with his angels.
Some believe that verse 4a is parallel to Jude 6:
“And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own habitation, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day.”
Others see a parallel to Daniel 8:10, which speaks of “a little horn” (Antiochus Ephiphanes, a Greek king of the Seleucid Empire from 175 – 164 BC):
“And out of one of [the four horns] came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them…” (Daniel 8:10-11).
Albert Barnes, in his 1834 commentary on Revelation 12, took note of this parallel and wrote the following:
“The main idea here undoubtedly is that of power, and the object of John is to show that the power of the dragon was as if it extended to the stars, and as if it dragged down a third part of them to the earth, or swept them away with its tail, leaving two-thirds unaffected. A power that would sweep them all away would be universal; a power that would sweep away one-third only would represent a dominion of that extent only… Suppose, then, that the dragon here was designed to represent the Roman pagan power; suppose that it referred to that power about to engage in the work of persecution, and at a time when the church was about to be greatly enlarged, and to fill the world; …the conditions here referred to would be fulfilled…
The second half of verse 4 may be a reference to Herod’s attempt to kill Jesus by enforcing the death of all Hebrew children below age 2:
“And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.”
In Matthew 2:1-18 we read about the wise men from the east who came to Jerusalem asking about the birth of the King of the Jews (verses 1-2). This troubled Herod, who quizzed the chief priests and scribes and found out that, according to Micah 5:2, the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem (verses 3-6). He instructed the wise men to find the Child, Jesus, and to let him know where he was (verses 7-8). However, the wise men were warned in a dream not to return to Herod (verse 12), and Herod, when he discovered that they had deceived him, put to death all children below the age of two throughout Bethlehem and its districts (verses 16-18). Joseph and Mary had already been warned in a dream to take Jesus and flee to Egypt (verses 13-15). ~ Revelation Chapter 12
This is what part of Mark 3 that's been pointed out:
Mark 2:27 ~ No one gets into the house of a strong person and steals anything without first tying up the strong person. Only then can the house be burglarized.
The demon possessed "belonged" to satan ("possessed" implies ownership). Jesus and His disciples were able to "steal them away" and free them from satan's grip when they cast out the demons from these people. Thus......the "strong person" (meaning - satan) had to have been tied up (bound) at the time. I see this as a foreshadow of what Jesus was going to complete on the cross.
Events in the future often cast shadows in the present. Jesus revealed this often - He demonstrated resurrection through Lazarus prior to His own resurrection, but we don't consider Lazarus' the first resurrection.What Jesus said and did there was something already a reality before He went to the cross. Unless I'm mistaken, I'm thinking Amils typically have satan being bound around the time of the cross, or at least soon after. Why use a passage before satan is allegedly bound according to Amil, to allegedly support satan's binding?
Why use a passage before satan is allegedly bound according to Amil, to allegedly support satan's binding?
Rev 18-20 must be chronological
Beast defeats Babylon
Christ defeats the Beast
First Resurrection --> Millennium --> 2nd Resurrection
One cannot possibly under any stretch of any logical reasonable imagination re-arrange or re-order that sequence of events, e.g. Christ can't defeat the Beast before the Beast defeats Babylon, the 2nd Resurrection can't precede the 1st, etc.
Rev 18-20 must be literal linear chronological
very difficult to wield all these theological terms precisely enoughWhat's interesting, this is pretty much what Premils conclude, yet you don't appear to be Premil though.
Premil places the former in this age---and the latter at the end of this age.
Beast defeats Babylon
Christ defeats the Beast
Premil places all of the following after the end of this age
First Resurrection --> Millennium --> 2nd Resurrection
Because the casting out of Satan's minions demonstrates Christ's power over Satan, which will be completed at Calvary.
Col 2:15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
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bound != destroyedBut still though, which seems to be falling on deaf ears, satan isn't bound until his demise in the lof. Assuming Amil, one can't apply his alleged reasons for being bound to that of when he is loosed. When he is loosed, he is no longer bound. This isn't rocket science.
however, it may be possible to interpret the Premil 2nd Coming in spiritual terms, whilst reserving a physical bodily 2nd Coming until after the Millennium at the 2nd Resurrection ?
Premil = correct, spiritual Parousia of Christ spiritually coming in power precedes Millennium = 1st Resurrection
Postmil = correct, physical bodily 2C of Christ postdates Millennium = 2nd Resurrection
?
But still though, which seems to be falling on deaf ears, satan isn't bound until his demise in the lof. Assuming Amil, one can't apply his alleged reasons for being bound to that of when he is loosed. When he is loosed, he is no longer bound. This isn't rocket science.
bound != destroyed
Satan is "bound" in the M, only to be "loosed" afterwards to deceive thru Gog & Magog
Satan is ultimately destroyed in the LoF
Because the casting out of Satan's minions demonstrates Christ's power over Satan, which will be completed at Calvary.
Col 2:15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
True - but God ALWAYS was more powerful and more sovereign than Satan (which is, what I believe, being demonstrated there). It's God that allows for him to be "loosed". It's not that satan's power overtook God's disarmament of him.But still though, which seems to be falling on deaf ears, satan isn't bound until his demise in the lof. Assuming Amil, one can't apply his alleged reasons for being bound to that of when he is loosed. When he is loosed, he is no longer bound. This isn't rocket science.
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