How can omniscience & omnipotence be compatible with free will?

[bling]

This has nothing to do with sin. It has to do with a free choice between A or B, each of which are equally sinful or sinless. Think of it as a free choice between Wheaties or Cheerios. Whether it's sinful or sinless to choose Wheaties or Cheerios is not material to this discussion. What's material is that the choice is freely made - meaning either one can be chosen prior to the point in time the choice is made - and that Christians assume God knows everything and can do anything.

The question is how does God know the free will choice you made between wheaties and Cheerios and get that information back to himself in a previous time frame as far as man is concerned (human time frame).

 

[GrayAngel]

You did not look very hard did you?
Exodus 8:15
But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.
Exodus 9:34
When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts.
Does the Bible ever say Pharoah hardened his own heart?

The Bible says multiple times that the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh. When something is repeated in the Bible, the writer is trying to put greater emphasis on it.

Yes, the Pharaoh's heart was hardened. It does not ever say that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, outside of God's influence. We "choose" to do things, and it seems to us that we have freedom of choice, but it's God whose moving us.

How do you explain God entering into the heart of Pharaoh and forcing to be hardened? Or what about the last verse I listed, where it says that God hardened the hearts of Jesus' audience so that they would not understand?

If God is the puppet master then it would seem to make a lives pointless and make God evil.

You've evaded my question. I didn't ask if you thought that God would be evil if Predestination exists. And God forgive you for even suggesting such a thing. The God of the Bible is a God of Predestination, and He is most certainly not evil. I'd hold my tongue if I were you.

No one has addressed this one simple fact. God has a plan for us. If God has a plan, that means He is not just standing back as we create history. If God did not have power over our actions, then His plans would be absolutely worthless.

If free will exists, then either God is not all knowing or He's not all powerful. Either way, He's unable to fulfill His promises. How could you possibly reconcile this if you believe in free will?

 

[elman]

The Bible says multiple times that the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh. When something is repeated in the Bible, the writer is trying to put greater emphasis on it.

Yes, the Pharaoh's heart was hardened. It does not ever say that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, outside of God's influence. We "choose" to do things, and it seems to us that we have freedom of choice, but it's God whose moving us.

How do you explain God entering into the heart of Pharaoh and forcing to be hardened? Or what about the last verse I listed, where it says that God hardened the hearts of Jesus' audience so that they would not understand?



You've evaded my question. I didn't ask if you thought that God would be evil if Predestination exists. And God forgive you for even suggesting such a thing. The God of the Bible is a God of Predestination, and He is most certainly not evil. I'd hold my tongue if I were you.



If free will exists, then either God is not all knowing or He's not all powerful. Either way, He's unable to fulfill His promises. How could you possibly reconcile this if you believe in free will?

The Bible does say Pharoah hardened his own heart. No spin gets you out of that fact. Why are you unable to understand that knowing I am going to do something does not mean you made me do it? If you believe God is all powerful, why do you believe God is unable to give us the ability to love others? If we are unable to love others, what is the point of our existence? To simply be progamed robots that act out our pograming? I don't think so. What promise do you think God made that cannot be fulfiled if you and I are able to love others? If you are not going to believe in an evil God, then you should not believe God created some people that had no choice and then God punishes them forever for being what God created them to be. That is evil.
g

 

[solarwave]

You've evaded my question. I didn't ask if you thought that God would be evil if Predestination exists. And God forgive you for even suggesting such a thing. The God of the Bible is a God of Predestination, and He is most certainly not evil. I'd hold my tongue if I were you.

I didn't mean to evade your question. It depends what you mean by predestination. Also I wasn't saying the real God is evil, just your conception of Him could be considered such. Perhaps that means I should be thrown in a fiery pit by an 'all-loving God' anyway.

If free will exists, then either God is not all knowing or He's not all powerful. Either way, He's unable to fulfill His promises. How could you possibly reconcile this if you believe in free will?

Free will has nothing to do with omnipotence. I can see how you might think it has something to with omniscience though. God can act in the world, but that doesn't mean He has to stop free will to fulfil His promises.

 

[Cieza]

We're nine pages into this thread and no one except for GrayAngel - who provided the only resolution I know of - has provided an explanation to help resolve the paradox. The only resolution I know of to the paradox is that either God doesn't exist or God does exist, but is not all-knowing and all-powerful.

Think of it this way:
Let's say you're a time traveler. On Wednesday, you travel into the future and observe me choosing Wheaties on Friday. You then return to the present - or Wednesday - and inform me that I will choose Wheaties on Friday. I then choose Cheerios instead. What does that do to your knowledge that I would choose Wheaties?

 

[elman]

We're nine pages into this thread and no one except for GrayAngel - who provided the only resolution I know of - has provided an explanation to help resolve the paradox. The only resolution I know of to the paradox is that either God doesn't exist or God does exist, but is not all-knowing and all-powerful.

Think of it this way:
Let's say you're a time traveler. On Wednesday, you travel into the future and observe me choosing Wheaties on Friday. You then return to the present - or Wednesday - and inform me that I will choose Wheaties on Friday. I then choose Cheerios instead. What does that do to your knowledge that I would choose Wheaties?

You keep making God chose the wrong thing. He does not do that. I don't understand how you keep failing to see that. If cheerios are chosen then God never has the knowledge that wheaties will be chosen.---never at any point in time.

 

[Cieza]

You keep making God chose the wrong thing. He does not do that. I don't understand how you keep failing to see that. If cheerios are chosen then God never has the knowledge that wheaties will be chosen.---never at any point in time.

If Mark chooses Cheerios, can God go to a point in Mark's timeline prior to when he makes his Cheerios choice and inform him that he will choose Cheerios? Please answer with a yes or no. And feel free to provide additional feedback.

 

[Deaver]

Here's something about Christianity that doesn't add up right to me:

Christians have said that God knows everything and can do anything. That means he knows the future or events which have yet to occur. He would therefore know today that a human being (we'll call him Pete) is going to choose 'A' instead of 'B'. However, since Pete has an unimpeded free will decision up until the time he makes his decision of either A or B, Pete could potentially choose B after God knew he was going to choose A. Can someone reconcile this?

I have read this thread through in its entirety. Why is this so complicated?

God knows everything and can do anything. Human beings have free choice to choose between ‘A’ or “B’. If Pete in your example changes his mind from ‘A’ to ‘B’, God knew that Pete was going to change his mind and knows that ultimately Pete would finally choose what he chooses.

 

[SonOfTheWest]

I have read this thread through in its entirety. Why is this so complicated?

God knows everything and can do anything. Human beings have free choice to choose between ‘A’ or “B’. If Pete in your example changes his mind from ‘A’ to ‘B’, God knew that Pete was going to change his mind and knows that ultimately Pete would finally choose what he chooses.

Ergo no free will. What Pete has is simply the illusion of free will. It might provide the sort of emotional satisfaction that Pete desires but none the less, it is not actually free will at all. To borrow from a movie. Someone might be able to lead an oblivious, full and interesting life while being a meat battery plugged into the Matix. But this does not change the fact he lived as a meat battery.

 

[Deaver]

Ergo no free will. What Pete has is simply the illusion of free will. It might provide the sort of emotional satisfaction that Pete desires but none the less, it is not actually free will at all. To borrow from a movie. Someone might be able to lead an oblivious, full and interesting life while being a meat battery plugged into the Matix. But this does not change the fact he lived as a meat battery.

Where did you get that conclusion? It absolutely is Pete's free will to choose 'A' or 'B'. If you choose to believe otherwise, that is your way of forcing your beliefs to fit my response to the OP.

 

[SonOfTheWest]

Where did you get that conclusion? It absolutely is Pete's free will to choose 'A' or 'B'. If you choose to believe otherwise, that is your way of forcing your beliefs to fit my response to the OP.

Conclusion? Nope. Has nothing to do with conclusions. It is a natural result of omniscience(and helped along by omnipresence and being outside of time). If you cannot understand how these concepts result in the illusion of free will and not real free will. Then I have no reason to discuss this with you.

 

[Hakan101]

Ergo no free will. What Pete has is simply the illusion of free will. It might provide the sort of emotional satisfaction that Pete desires but none the less, it is not actually free will at all. To borrow from a movie. Someone might be able to lead an oblivious, full and interesting life while being a meat battery plugged into the Matix. But this does not change the fact he lived as a meat battery.

I fail to see how that makes any sense with the other analogy. God knew Pete which letter Pete was going to choose, but he does not control Pete's choice at all. Pete completely had free will, God knew what he would do with his free will.

How is it not that simple.

 

[SonOfTheWest]

I fail to see how that makes any sense with the other analogy. God knew Pete which letter Pete was going to choose, but he does not control Pete's choice at all. Pete completely had free will, God knew what he would do with his free will.

How is it not that simple.

Then you don't actually have an intelligible understanding of what omniscience means and are simply pandering to the term for the same of false reconciliation of the two concept. Pete never actually made a choice. That is the part you utterly fail to either recognize or understand. Part of the reason that omniscience and omnipotence often get brought up in these discussions is because they are exlusive traits. One does not exist with the other. They cancel each other. In the case of only omniscience it renders all choice moot. For that matter, it also means God has no capacity to actually choose.

 

[Deaver]

Conclusion? Nope. Has nothing to do with conclusions. It is a natural result of omniscience(and helped along by omnipresence and being outside of time). If you cannot understand how these concepts result in the illusion of free will and not real free will. Then I have no reason to discuss this with you.

Your response does not make sense. Let me refresh a couple of definitions: Omniscient = God knows everything. Omnipresent = God is present in all places at all times. Tell me how you think that leads to lack of free will by man. We have a faculty of self-determination in the sense that we select our own thoughts, words, and deeds. Man is free to choose what he prefers, what he desires.

 

[Deaver]

Your response does not make sense. Let me refresh a couple of definitions: Omniscient = God knows everything. Omnipresent = God is present in all places at all times. Tell me how you think that leads to lack of free will by man. We have a faculty of self-determination in the sense that we select our own thoughts, words, and deeds. Man is free to choose what he prefers, what he desires.

I should add:

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV)

Far from the will reigning over a man, the will is determined by the man's own character, a new character in Christ.

 

[solarwave]

We're nine pages into this thread and no one except for GrayAngel - who provided the only resolution I know of - has provided an explanation to help resolve the paradox. The only resolution I know of to the paradox is that either God doesn't exist or God does exist, but is not all-knowing and all-powerful.

I think that really simplifies the problem. The question you are asking is very deep and how time works is hard to imagine.

So your problem is that God knows the future, so what if God tells someone their future and then that that person wishes to make a different choice....what happens then?

Think of it this way:
Let's say you're a time traveler. On Wednesday, you travel into the future and observe me choosing Wheaties on Friday. You then return to the present - or Wednesday - and inform me that I will choose Wheaties on Friday. I then choose Cheerios instead. What does that do to your knowledge that I would choose Wheaties?

I'll use this example for God and.... lets call him Bob. I think the problem is that you assume that God has a very simple knowledge of the future. By this I mean that your stories only allows God knowledge of the event in question and not the events that lead up to it. God doesn't just know that Bob eats Wheaties on Friday, but also whether this decision is based on Him (God) telling Bob that he (Bob) will eat them prior to the event. So what God knows will happen is the future that happens because He tells Bob.

So the next problem is that if God tells Bob he will eat X and so Bob chooses Y, it makes Gods statement wrong. If God therefore (knowing Bob will change his mind) says Bob will eat Y, this may make Bob change his mind to X (which he was going to eat anyway).

So one answer might be that some times God CAN'T always tell us what WILL happen, even though He knows. This doesn't mean God doesn't exist, it could just be how Reality works. So the answer is that maybe God can't tell Bob what he will eat on Friday.

To be honest it is a very hard question to properly imagine, let alone answer. For example God knows the future and tells (or doesn't tell) Bob all in one instant reality and any 'change' God or Bob takes are in fact never changes. Many this is a paradox just like the rock paradox and you just have to say that God doesn't do illogical things. God doesn't tell people things that they change their minds about (unless it is to influence their decision perhaps), just like God never tries to make a rock He can't move.

 

[Cieza]

I have read this thread through in its entirety. Why is this so complicated?

God knows everything and can do anything. Human beings have free choice to choose between ‘A’ or “B’. If Pete in your example changes his mind from ‘A’ to ‘B’, God knew that Pete was going to change his mind and knows that ultimately Pete would finally choose what he chooses.

Then what happens if God knows Pete will choose A, informs him of this on day 1 and when day 3 rolls around, Pete chooses B. Does that then mean God was wrong when he told Pete he would choose A?

Please explain how it can be possible for someone/something to infallibly know what you are going to choose at some point in the future if you could still potentially choose something other than what this someone/something knows?

 

[elman]

Then what happens if God knows Pete will choose A, informs him of this on day 1 and when day 3 rolls around, Pete chooses B. Does that then mean God was wrong when he told Pete he would choose A?

Please explain how it can be possible for someone/something to infallibly know what you are going to choose at some point in the future if you could still potentially choose something other than what this someone/something knows?

No it means you are wrong to think God would not know Pete was actually going to chose B. God would never tell Pete he was going to chose A if Pete was going to chose B. Your last question is illogical. God would not know something wrong if God is infallible.

 

[elman]

If Mark chooses Cheerios, can God go to a point in Mark's timeline prior to when he makes his Cheerios choice and inform him that he will choose Cheerios? Please answer with a yes or no. And feel free to provide additional feedback.

God will only inform Mark he is going to chose Cheerios if that is what Mark is going to chose. In answer to your question yes God can tell Mark he is going to chose Cheerios but only if that is what Mark is going to chose.

 

[Deaver]

Then what happens if God knows Pete will choose A, informs him of this on day 1 and when day 3 rolls around, Pete chooses B. Does that then mean God was wrong when he told Pete he would choose A?

Please explain how it can be possible for someone/something to infallibly know what you are going to choose at some point in the future if you could still potentially choose something other than what this someone/something knows?

First, why do you think that God would tell Pete he is going to choose anything? I have read several places in this thread where it has been suggested that God tells us what we are going to do. I do not believe that is scriptural.

On your second point, that is easy to answer. God in this case, knows that you will first choose one thing and that you will then change your mind.