How can omniscience & omnipotence be compatible with free will?

[Deaver]

God will only inform Mark he is going to chose Cheerios if that is what Mark is going to chose. In answer to your question yes God can tell Mark he is going to chose Cheerios but only if that is what Mark is going to chose.

Elman, why do you think God will tell Mark what he is going to choose. I would like to explore what scripture suggest that.

 

[elman]

Elman, why do you think God will tell Mark what he is going to choose. I would like to explore what scripture suggest that.

I don't think God will tell us what we are going to do. That was in the hypothetical dreamed up.

 

[Deaver]

I don't think God will tell us what we are going to do. That was in the hypothetical dreamed up.

ok

 

[GrayAngel]

The Bible does say Pharoah hardened his own heart. No spin gets you out of that fact. Why are you unable to understand that knowing I am going to do something does not mean you made me do it? If you believe God is all powerful, why do you believe God is unable to give us the ability to love others? If we are unable to love others, what is the point of our existence? To simply be progamed robots that act out our pograming? I don't think so. What promise do you think God made that cannot be fulfiled if you and I are able to love others? If you are not going to believe in an evil God, then you should not believe God created some people that had no choice and then God punishes them forever for being what God created them to be. That is evil.
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You're still evading. The Bible says that the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart. Do you have a decent explanation for this, or are you going to pick and choose which verses you like and which to ignore?

I think that really simplifies the problem. The question you are asking is very deep and how time works is hard to imagine.

So your problem is that God knows the future, so what if God tells someone their future and then that that person wishes to make a different choice....what happens then?

Instead of asking "what if" how about "what did"? God has told people the future many times in the past, and it has ALWAYS come true. Such as when God informed Peter that he would deny knowing him. Peter claimed that it would never happen, because he loved Jesus too much. But it still happened, exactly as Jesus predicted.

God's predictions aren't made so we could change them, because we have no power to change destiny. But He informs us so He could amaze us with who He is. It is comforting being under such a powerful god.

 

[elman]

=GrayAngel;58066839]You're still evading. The Bible says that the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart. Do you have a decent explanation for this, or are you going to pick and choose which verses you like and which to ignore?

The Bible also says Pharaoh hardened his own heart. Are you going to pick and choose which verses you like and which to ignore?

God's predictions aren't made so we could change them, because we have no power to change destiny. But He informs us so He could amaze us with who He is. It is comforting being under such a powerful god.

Peter chose to deny Jesus. If Peter had chosen to not deny Jesus, God would not have told him he was going to deny Jesus. The point I was makeing was God will always be correct. God telling you something does not mean you do not have a choice. Peter had a choice.

 

[solarwave]

Instead of asking "what if" how about "what did"? God has told people the future many times in the past, and it has ALWAYS come true. Such as when God informed Peter that he would deny knowing him. Peter claimed that it would never happen, because he loved Jesus too much. But it still happened, exactly as Jesus predicted.

God's predictions aren't made so we could change them, because we have no power to change destiny. But He informs us so He could amaze us with who He is. It is comforting being under such a powerful god.

I totally agree with everything you have said and say nothing against the points I was making.

 

[Cieza]

No it means you are wrong to think God would not know Pete was actually going to chose B. God would never tell Pete he was going to chose A if Pete was going to chose B. Your last question is illogical. God would not know something wrong if God is infallible.

Let's follow a timeline:
Day 1: Pete hasn't made an A/B choice for day 3
Day 1: God knows Pete will choose A on day 3; he knows this because he observed Pete choosing A on day 3
Day 3: Pete has the freedom to choose A or B; he chooses B

If God has this infallible foreknowledge then Pete wouldn't be able to freely choose between A or B
If Pete can freely choose between A or B, then God cannot have infallible foreknowledge.

It's very simple.

 

[Cieza]

God will only inform Mark he is going to chose Cheerios if that is what Mark is going to chose. In answer to your question yes God can tell Mark he is going to chose Cheerios but only if that is what Mark is going to chose.

That raises the question of why God never informs us of what we will choose to do in the future. If God will only inform us of such future choices if we are to actually end up making those choices, then either God doesn't know what we will do in the future or we can freely choose between A or B.

 

[Cieza]

Elman, why do you think God will tell Mark what he is going to choose. I would like to explore what scripture suggest that.

This thread isn't about whether or not God would choose to tell Mark prior to his A/B choice what he'll choose. It's about what would happen if he did tell Mark and Mark freely chose something different than what he was told.

 

[Cieza]

No it means you are wrong to think God would not know Pete was actually going to chose B. God would never tell Pete he was going to chose A if Pete was going to chose B. Your last question is illogical. God would not know something wrong if God is infallible.

By that logic, it means one of the following must be true:

1) God does not know everything
2) God can not do anything
3) Pete can not make a free choice between A or B in which the potential of him choosing the one he ends up not choosing still exists up until the time he makes the choice.

 

[Cieza]

I think that really simplifies the problem. The question you are asking is very deep and how time works is hard to imagine.

So your problem is that God knows the future, so what if God tells someone their future and then that that person wishes to make a different choice....what happens then?



I'll use this example for God and.... lets call him Bob. I think the problem is that you assume that God has a very simple knowledge of the future. By this I mean that your stories only allows God knowledge of the event in question and not the events that lead up to it. God doesn't just know that Bob eats Wheaties on Friday, but also whether this decision is based on Him (God) telling Bob that he (Bob) will eat them prior to the event. So what God knows will happen is the future that happens because He tells Bob.

So the next problem is that if God tells Bob he will eat X and so Bob chooses Y, it makes Gods statement wrong. If God therefore (knowing Bob will change his mind) says Bob will eat Y, this may make Bob change his mind to X (which he was going to eat anyway).

So one answer might be that some times God CAN'T always tell us what WILL happen, even though He knows. This doesn't mean God doesn't exist, it could just be how Reality works. So the answer is that maybe God can't tell Bob what he will eat on Friday.

To be honest it is a very hard question to properly imagine, let alone answer. For example God knows the future and tells (or doesn't tell) Bob all in one instant reality and any 'change' God or Bob takes are in fact never changes. Many this is a paradox just like the rock paradox and you just have to say that God doesn't do illogical things. God doesn't tell people things that they change their minds about (unless it is to influence their decision perhaps), just like God never tries to make a rock He can't move.

We're eleven pages into this and the only conclusion we've come to is that one of the following three presuppositions I made cannot be true:

1) God does not know everything
2) God can not do anything
3) Pete can not make a free choice between A or B in which the potential of him choosing the one he ends up not choosing still exists up until the time he makes the choice.

BTW, if God is all-powerful, he can make a stone so big that he cannot lift it. It's called removing his ability to do anything. If he can do anything, then he could relieve himself of the power to do anything. The sequence goes like this:

1) An omnipotent God who can do anything creates a ten ton stone
2) This omnipotent God removes his ability to do anything
3) This less than omnipotent God (perhaps he is no longer a God because he's no longer fully omnipotent) is incapable of moving the stone, as it is too heavy.

 

[Deaver]

This thread isn't about whether or not God would choose to tell Mark prior to his A/B choice what he'll choose. It's about what would happen if he did tell Mark and Mark freely chose something different than what he was told.

The problem with that argument is, that it won't happen. The point is really that God is all knowing. If He chooses to tell someone what they will do (using the Peter denying Christ scripture) he knows what is going to happen. To say that doesn't allow Peter to do something else completely misses the point, to no end.

The only relationship between the two points (i) God knowing all and (ii) man's free will is that God knows what we are going to do.

 

[Deaver]

BTW, if God is all-powerful, he can make a stone so big that he cannot lift it. It's called removing his ability to do anything. If he can do anything, then he could relieve himself of the power to do anything. The sequence goes like this:

1) An omnipotent God who can do anything creates a ten ton stone
2) This omnipotent God removes his ability to do anything
3) This less than omnipotent God (perhaps he is no longer a God because he's no longer fully omnipotent) is incapable of moving the stone, as it is too heavy.

What we have here is a non-believer distorting the biblical definition of omnipotence in order to "prove" that God cannot exist. Contrary to their claims, omnipotence does not include the ability to do things that are, by definition, impossible. Neither does omnipotence include the ability to fail. By defining omnipotence as requiring one to have the ability to fail, non-believers have defined omnipotence as being impossible. Of course, an omnipotent God would never fail.

These kinds of arguments are clearly illogical and even silly, although they are commonly used by inexperienced atheists. Most intelligent non-believers have dropped these kinds of arguments long ago.

 

[Deaver]

BTW, if God is all-powerful, he can make a stone so big that he cannot lift it. It's called removing his ability to do anything. If he can do anything, then he could relieve himself of the power to do anything. The sequence goes like this:

1) An omnipotent God who can do anything creates a ten ton stone
2) This omnipotent God removes his ability to do anything
3) This less than omnipotent God (perhaps he is no longer a God because he's no longer fully omnipotent) is incapable of moving the stone, as it is too heavy.

What we have here is a non-believer distorting the biblical definition of omnipotence in order to "prove" that God cannot exist. Contrary to their claims, omnipotence does not include the ability to do things that are, by definition, impossible. Neither does omnipotence include the ability to fail. By defining omnipotence as requiring one to have the ability to fail, non-believers have defined omnipotence as being impossible. Of course, an omnipotent God would never fail.

These kinds of arguments are clearly illogical and even silly, although they are commonly used by inexperienced atheists. Most intelligent atheists have dropped these kinds of arguments long ago.

 

[Cieza]

This thread isn't about whether or not God would choose to tell Mark prior to his A/B choice what he'll choose. It's about what would happen if he did tell Mark and Mark freely chose something different than what he was told.

The problem with that argument is, that it won't happen.

If it did happen, then what would happen to God's foreknowledge? If God is all-knowing & all-powerful and Pete can freely choose between A or B, then it theoretically could happen. Therefore, there must be a theoretical answer as to what would happen if God did tell Pete what his A/B choice will be.

Remember, as this is a paradox, one of the following must be true:

1) God does not know everything
2) God can not do anything
3) Pete can not make a free choice between A or B in which the potential of him choosing the one he ends up not choosing still exists up until the time he makes the choice.

Which is it?

 

[Deaver]

We're eleven pages into this and the only conclusion we've come to is that one of the following three presuppositions I made cannot be true:

1) God does not know everything
2) God can not do anything
3) Pete can not make a free choice between A or B in which the potential of him choosing the one he ends up not choosing still exists up until the time he makes the choice.

We have not come to that conclusion, you may have. I contend the following is true:

• God knows everything.
• God has all power and might to do anything that He wills to do that is within His nature. (for example God cannot lie)
• Pete can make a free choice between A or B

 

[Deaver]

If it did happen, then what would happen to God's foreknowledge? If God is all-knowing & all-powerful and Pete can freely choose between A or B, then it theoretically could happen. Therefore, there must be a theoretical answer as to what would happen if God did tell Pete what his A/B choice will be.

Remember, as this is a paradox, one of the following must be true:

1) God does not know everything
2) God can not do anything
3) Pete can not make a free choice between A or B in which the potential of him choosing the one he ends up not choosing still exists up until the time he makes the choice.

Which is it?

None of the above! You are trying to arrive at an answer with illogical application of the assumptions.

• God knows everything and that is all it means. That has no impact on what Pete will do.
• God is all-powerful means that God is all powerful. What you are missing is that God does not act outside of His nature. So he is not going to force His will on Pete. Again no impact on what Pete does.
• Pete has free choice to choose between A & B. Whichever he ultimately chooses, the other remains an option until he makes a decision.

 

[Deaver]

Remember, as this is a paradox...

Trying to respond and answer a paradox may be stimulating but it is really self defeating.

What I will say is that if Christianity is in your head enough, to make you challenge it, then at least your thinking about it. And that is a good thing. Much better for you to think about Christianity enough to challenge it, than for it not be in your spirit at all. Perhaps a seed will be planted or watered here and in due time the harvest.

May God continue to work in you and bless you!

 

[Cieza]

We have not come to that conclusion, you may have. I contend the following is true:

• God knows everything.
• God has all power and might to do anything that He wills to do that is within His nature. (for example God cannot lie)
• Pete can make a free choice between A or B

Why are you avoiding the question? If you maintain each of the above is true, then you should be able to provide at minimum an educated guess to the following question:

What happens if God observes Pete choosing A, then tells Pete prior to his making his A/B choice that he will choose A and Pete then chooses

 

[solarwave]

We're eleven pages into this and the only conclusion we've come to is that one of the following three presuppositions I made cannot be true:

1) God does not know everything
2) God can not do anything
3) Pete can not make a free choice between A or B in which the potential of him choosing the one he ends up not choosing still exists up until the time he makes the choice.

Based on what you say below I can see why you think this is true and I'll try to explain why I disagree.

BTW, if God is all-powerful, he can make a stone so big that he cannot lift it. It's called removing his ability to do anything. If he can do anything, then he could relieve himself of the power to do anything. The sequence goes like this:

1) An omnipotent God who can do anything creates a ten ton stone
2) This omnipotent God removes his ability to do anything
3) This less than omnipotent God (perhaps he is no longer a God because he's no longer fully omnipotent) is incapable of moving the stone, as it is too heavy.

Omnipotence (sometimes termed being 'all-powerful') doesn't mean that God can do anything you can possibly think of. You may define it like that, but many theologians don't and so if you don't believe in a God like that then you would be agreeing with many well informed Christians. I would say God is logical and the stone paradox is illogical and makes no sense. The problem I have with your answer is that for God to stop being omnipotent would mean killing Himself (as His omnipotence is a intrinsic part of Himself). It would be like asking a human to remove his mind from his brain. It makes no sense and is impossible without death. It also makes little sense for God to be able to kill Himself. God is a fundamental part of existence.

So to answer your (1), (2), (3) options; God isn't all-powerful, in that He cannot do anything you could possibly name (He can't make a square circle). As I said in my previous answer, there's a good chance God cannot always tell someone their future while being truthful.