How can omniscience & omnipotence be compatible with free will?

[GrayAngel]

Have you looked for any scripture to prove we can chose to love others? Matt 25:31 and following, for example. First John. Ezekiel 18. Almost every page of the Bible reflects people making choices and suffering the consequences of their choices. Just let the Bible fall open and put your finger on a verse at random. Is anyone making a choice that is either pleasing to God or unpleasing?

Matthew 25:31 - “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne."

I assume you wanted me to continue reading. All this passage refers to is the rewards of good works. We all know there are people who give to the poor. That's not news to anybody. The question is, was it our free choice to do it, separate from God's power?

The answer is no. That's not possible. God created us, knowing from the beginning the full result. There's no wiggle room for free will to exist. The idea your suggesting, that we have a choice between love or evil, changes nothing. Free will is still the same: the ability to form our own destiny. Not to mention, everything we are was created by God. Did we create ourselves?

I'm not denying the existence of a will (ie a drive to act), but that we could not possibly have a free will. Our will is a result of who we are and our situation, which is the result of God's planning. Even "random chance" isn't really random. It's just that we lack the ability to predict it.

Ephesians 1:11 - In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

Again, we live according to God's plan. We're not in charge of our own destinies. We were chosen according to His will. What good would His plan be if He wasn't in charge of destiny anyway?

Predestination is all over the Bible. Sometimes it's spelled out plainly like in the above passage, and sometimes it's more subtle, like when God promised to make Abraham a great nation. Not that He would give him a push and hope for the best, but that He would make it happen.

Or how about the time God hardened the heart of pharaoh, causing him to attack the Israelites, for the purpose that God could destroy him?

Or how about any of the times God makes a promise or prophecy to His people, and then He makes it happen? Did Peter have a choice of making Jesus wrong when Jesus said he'd deny knowing Him three times? With free will, prophecy is impossible, and God's promises would be worth nothing.

It would be like me pointing you to Random.org and prophesying that if you make the range between 1 and 1,000,000 then you would come up with the number 152,842. But because I have no power to control the generator, my prophecy is most likely not going to come true.

 

[solarwave]

Why does it make no sense?

If it is easily explainable, then please provide your explanation.

God doesn't have foreknowledge. God is outside of time and so doesn't know something before, as, or after it happens, He just knows. So Pete can make his choice and God has knowledge because Pete chooses. It only appears to us that God knows something before it happens because we are stuck in time. All God is doing is observing what happens. If a time traveller were to go to the future and see what happens, would you say his knowledge causes you to do what you do or that your action causes his knowledge? You may not be able to change what you will do, but that is true whether time travel is possible or not. What you will do is what you will do.

 

[GrayAngel]

God doesn't have foreknowledge. God is outside of time and so doesn't know something before, as, or after it happens, He just knows. So Pete can make his choice and God has knowledge because Pete chooses. It only appears to us that God knows something before it happens because we are stuck in time. All God is doing is observing what happens. If a time traveller were to go to the future and see what happens, would you say his knowledge causes you to do what you do or that your action causes his knowledge? You may not be able to change what you will do, but that is true whether time travel is possible or not. What you will do is what you will do.

If we're living in time, and God tells us something that hasn't happened yet, that is God's foreknowledge by definition. Changing the definition doesn't change anything. You are right that God sees all time, beginning and end, at once. But that still means He was the initiator of everything. He saw beginning, middle, and end from the start, which means He was completely aware of the full result of creation. One little changed detail, and all of history would have been different. But God saw and knew it all, and all of history was created from the start, with His full knowledge and intention.

No one has addressed this one simple fact. God has a plan for us. If God has a plan, that means He is not just standing back as we create history. If God did not have power over our actions, then His plans would be absolutely worthless.

 

[bling]

I am not thinking about it wrong. It seems to me that you want me to believe I'm thinking about it wrong so the paradox won't come to the surface. But given the definition of the Christian God and the freedom man has to choose either A or B, there is a paradox. This paradox means one of the following must be true:

1) God isn't really omniscient
2) God isn't really omnipotent
3) Man doesn't really have an unimpeded free will choice to choose between A or B.

Which one is true?

That is not the only options man can have free will, God can know everything He wants to know (this may not fit your definition of omniscient) and God can do all that can be done but there are some things God cannot do like create a being that always existed (this might also not fit your definition of omnipotent). Omniscient and omnipotent are not “defined” in scripture and are man’s words to describe God and are really defined by God and not man, so what is His definition?

Let us try again and please explain what you disagree with as being a posibility:


Do you believe time is relative (this has been repeatedly supported over the last 100 years)?


Our time (sequence of events) is relative to us.


God has a different sequence of events relative to His time (God can still be in time, but it will not be our time). God is not limited to our same sequence of events.


God does not take our free will moral decisions away from us that are significant (the choice to accept or reject His help [Love/mercy/forgiveness/grace/charity]) we have got to have this type of free will to fulfill our earthly objective.


Yes! God could step in and keep every person from sinning, but sin is not the problem and not sinning is not man’s objective.


Jesus tells Peter: “You will deny me three times tonight”, but that is not to keep Peter from denying him. Peter has shown that he is already involved in big time sinning and is not dropping to his knees in front of Jesus asking for forgiveness (that is what he needs to personally decide to do). Peter is not depending on Christ’s (God’s) help but is trying to do it on his own (this is self reliance, ego building, prideful and selfish). The denial of Jesus is Peter’s personal free will decision and Jesus telling Peter beforehand lets Peter and the rest of us know:


1. God is not going to stop us from sinning (God cannot be blamed these are our decisions).

2. Sin is not the biggest problem and has purpose.

3. Forget about acting like or thinking; God does not know about our sins.

4. God will allow us to dig ourselves into such a deep hole of sinning we will be cut to the heart with the only choice of: either keep our pride and kill ourselves (like Judas or with: alcohol, drugs, depression, eating, sex, etc.) OR we will humbly accept God’s Charity in the form of forgiveness.

5. Our objective is obtaining Godly type Love through the easiest method of accepting as Charity God’s forgiveness, so God allows the non-believer to sin.

6. The reason Peter does not “change” his decision to deny Christ, is because that is the free will decision he chose (and made in God’s perspective). It was an historic decision for God already made, but it was a “future” not yet made decision for Peter. The telling of Peter “prior” (this is in Peter’s perspective) to Peter actually doing it was also part of the God’s history at the time. It is almost like the Peter made the decision twice, but under the exact same conditions, so they will be the same decision.

 

[Cieza]

If we have not been given complete reign over the choices we make then your argument becomes moot.

In the original choice of A or B, we do have complete reign over our choice. Thus the paradox if someone else can know what we will choose prior to us making the choice. And even more blatantly a paradox if this someone is capable of informing us what choice we will make.

The only real "choice" we are given is whether or not we choose to accept redemption for our sins, thereby allowing us to be with God for eternity.

If true and God knows everything, then God already knows whether we're going to accept redemption for our sins.

Can a person of the secular world or an atheist accept redemption for his sins?

 

[Cieza]

God doesn't have foreknowledge. God is outside of time and so doesn't know something before, as, or after it happens, He just knows. So Pete can make his choice and God has knowledge because Pete chooses. It only appears to us that God knows something before it happens because we are stuck in time. All God is doing is observing what happens. If a time traveller were to go to the future and see what happens, would you say his knowledge causes you to do what you do or that your action causes his knowledge? You may not be able to change what you will do, but that is true whether time travel is possible or not. What you will do is what you will do.

If the time traveler returns to the present, informs Pete what his future A/B choice will be and then Pete then makes a contrary choice, what does that do to the time traveler's knowledge?

 

[drich0150]

In the original choice of A or B, we do have complete reign over our choice. Thus the paradox if someone else can know what we will choose prior to us making the choice. And even more blatantly a paradox if this someone is capable of informing us what choice we will make.

If you believe we have complete freedom of choice, (That we can choose any A/B combo set before us) then know this "belief" is not a scripturally supported.

If true and God knows everything, then God already knows whether we're going to accept redemption for our sins.

Can a person of the secular world or an atheist accept redemption for his sins?

Yes he can accept this redemption if he so chooses. Knowing how a movie ends before it is played, does not make one responsible for the whole production.

 

[elman]

Matthew 25:31 - “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne."

I assume you wanted me to continue reading. All this passage refers to is the rewards of good works. We all know there are people who give to the poor. That's not news to anybody. The question is, was it our free choice to do it, separate from God's power?

The answer is no. That's not possible. God created us, knowing from the beginning the full result. There's no wiggle room for free will to exist. The idea your suggesting, that we have a choice between love or evil, changes nothing. Free will is still the same: the ability to form our own destiny. Not to mention, everything we are was created by God. Did we create ourselves?

I'm not denying the existence of a will (ie a drive to act), but that we could not possibly have a free will. Our will is a result of who we are and our situation, which is the result of God's planning. Even "random chance" isn't really random. It's just that we lack the ability to predict it.

Ephesians 1:11 - In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

Again, we live according to God's plan. We're not in charge of our own destinies. We were chosen according to His will. What good would His plan be if He wasn't in charge of destiny anyway?

Predestination is all over the Bible. Sometimes it's spelled out plainly like in the above passage, and sometimes it's more subtle, like when God promised to make Abraham a great nation. Not that He would give him a push and hope for the best, but that He would make it happen.

Or how about the time God hardened the heart of pharaoh, causing him to attack the Israelites, for the purpose that God could destroy him?

Or how about any of the times God makes a promise or prophecy to His people, and then He makes it happen? Did Peter have a choice of making Jesus wrong when Jesus said he'd deny knowing Him three times? With free will, prophecy is impossible, and God's promises would be worth nothing.

It would be like me pointing you to Random.org and prophesying that if you make the range between 1 and 1,000,000 then you would come up with the number 152,842. But because I have no power to control the generator, my prophecy is most likely not going to come true.

Does the Bible ever say Pharoah hardened his own heart?

 

[GrayAngel]

Yes he can accept this redemption if he so chooses. Knowing how a movie ends before it is played, does not make one responsible for the whole production.

It does if he's also the one who wrote the script. God is not just a time traveller, or some idle seer of the future. God made us, our world, and everything else. How could God NOT be responsible for everything we do?

 

[Cieza]

If you believe we have complete freedom of choice, (That we can choose any A/B combo set before us) then know this "belief" is not a scripturally supported.

The freedom of choice isn't something I believe. It's something I know, as I experience it first hand. If you don't experience this freedom of choice, then you and I are physiologically different in this capacity. If so, then I'd like to ask what happens to you if you're destined to choose C, but try to choose D?

Can a person of the secular world or an atheist accept redemption for his sins?

Yes he can accept this redemption if he so chooses. Knowing how a movie ends before it is played, does not make one responsible for the whole production.

Can an atheist accept this redemption and continue to believe that there is not a conscious supreme being?

 

[Cieza]

It does if he's also the one who wrote the script. God is not just a time traveller, or some idle seer of the future. God made us, our world, and everything else. How could God NOT be responsible for everything we do?

If I choose C instead of D, how is God responsible for my choice?

 

[elman]

Matthew 25:31 - “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne."

I assume you wanted me to continue reading. All this passage refers to is the rewards of good works. We all know there are people who give to the poor. That's not news to anybody. The question is, was it our free choice to do it, separate from God's power?

The answer is no. That's not possible. God created us, knowing from the beginning the full result. There's no wiggle room for free will to exist. The idea your suggesting, that we have a choice between love or evil, changes nothing. Free will is still the same: the ability to form our own destiny. Not to mention, everything we are was created by God. Did we create ourselves?

I'm not denying the existence of a will (ie a drive to act), but that we could not possibly have a free will. Our will is a result of who we are and our situation, which is the result of God's planning. Even "random chance" isn't really random. It's just that we lack the ability to predict it.

Ephesians 1:11 - In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

Again, we live according to God's plan. We're not in charge of our own destinies. We were chosen according to His will. What good would His plan be if He wasn't in charge of destiny anyway?

Predestination is all over the Bible. Sometimes it's spelled out plainly like in the above passage, and sometimes it's more subtle, like when God promised to make Abraham a great nation. Not that He would give him a push and hope for the best, but that He would make it happen.

Or how about the time God hardened the heart of pharaoh, causing him to attack the Israelites, for the purpose that God could destroy him?

Or how about any of the times God makes a promise or prophecy to His people, and then He makes it happen? Did Peter have a choice of making Jesus wrong when Jesus said he'd deny knowing Him three times? With free will, prophecy is impossible, and God's promises would be worth nothing.

It would be like me pointing you to Random.org and prophesying that if you make the range between 1 and 1,000,000 then you would come up with the number 152,842. But because I have no power to control the generator, my prophecy is most likely not going to come true.

So it was not Peter who denied Jesus but God forcing Peter to deny Jesus? Too bad Peter did not realize that. It would have made him feel a lot better later.

 

[GrayAngel]

Does the Bible ever say Pharoah hardened his own heart?

No. It says that God hardened the heart of the pharoah. It even says why God did it.

 

[elman]

No. It says that God hardened the heart of the pharoah. It even says why God did it.

Look again.

 

[GrayAngel]

Look again.

Nope. It's still there. Exodus 9:12, 10:1, 10:20, 10:27, 11:10, 14:18, Joshua 11:20.

And Pharoah was not a one time exception. John 12:40.

I would have typed them for you, but I'm using my phone, and it would take forever.

 

[elman]

Nope. It's still there. Exodus 9:12, 10:1, 10:20, 10:27, 11:10, 14:18, Joshua 11:20.

And Pharoah was not a one time exception. John 12:40.

I would have typed them for you, but I'm using my phone, and it would take forever.

You did not look very hard did you?
Exodus 8:15
But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.
Exodus 9:34
When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts.
Does the Bible ever say Pharoah hardened his own heart?

 

[drich0150]

The freedom of choice isn't something I believe. It's something I know, as I experience it first hand. If you don't experience this freedom of choice, then you and I are physiologically different in this capacity. If so, then I'd like to ask what happens to you if you're destined to choose C, but try to choose D?

Again if you believe you have true freedom of Choice then do something you would not normally do. Make the decision to live a sin free life, and see how long you last. You like me are a literal slave to sin, all of our decisions are bound by this Lack of choice. We are allowed to choose with in the confines of sin, but our choice outside of sin is limited.

Can an atheist accept this redemption and continue to believe that there is not a conscious supreme being?

The redemption is only offered through God. Acknowledgment of where the gift came from is apart of accepting the gift, as witnessed in the "sinners prayer."

 

[Cieza]

Again if you believe you have true freedom of Choice then do something you would not normally do. Make the decision to live a sin free life, and see how long you last. You like me are a literal slave to sin, all of our decisions are bound by this Lack of choice. We are allowed to choose with in the confines of sin, but our choice outside of sin is limited.

This has nothing to do with sin. It has to do with a free choice between A or B, each of which are equally sinful or sinless. Think of it as a free choice between Wheaties or Cheerios. Whether it's sinful or sinless to choose Wheaties or Cheerios is not material to this discussion. What's material is that the choice is freely made - meaning either one can be chosen prior to the point in time the choice is made - and that Christians assume God knows everything and can do anything.

The redemption is only offered through God. Acknowledgment of where the gift came from is apart of accepting the gift, as witnessed in the "sinners prayer."

Is the atheist free to define "God" on his own terms? What if the atheist considers "God" a moniker for all the things outside the control of man and anything he/she receives that didn't come as a direct result of an action of man is considered to be from "God".

 

[drich0150]

This has nothing to do with sin. It has to do with a free choice between A or B, each of which are equally sinful or sinless. Think of it as a free choice between Wheaties or Cheerios. Whether it's sinful or sinless to choose Wheaties or Cheerios is not material to this discussion. What's material is that the choice is freely made - meaning either one can be chosen prior to the point in time the choice is made - and that Christians assume God knows everything and can do anything.

At no point have I ever said we can not make choices. The point is, we do not have complete freedom to make just any or every choice that presents itself.

Is the atheist free to define "God" on his own terms?

No.

What if the atheist considers "God" a moniker for all the things outside the control of man and anything he/she receives that didn't come as a direct result of an action of man is considered to be from "God".

This is not God this is a catch phrase for any and everything you do not understand. God defines himself very specifically. "We" must acknowledge and accept this definition..

 

[solarwave]

If we're living in time, and God tells us something that hasn't happened yet, that is God's foreknowledge by definition. Changing the definition doesn't change anything. You are right that God sees all time, beginning and end, at once. But that still means He was the initiator of everything. He saw beginning, middle, and end from the start, which means He was completely aware of the full result of creation. One little changed detail, and all of history would have been different. But God saw and knew it all, and all of history was created from the start, with His full knowledge and intention.

There is a difference between God having foreknowledge relative to Him and relative to us. I'm saying that God doesn't perceive any foreknowledge, it is only us it seems like God knew the end since the start. That sentence only makes sense in time.

The problem is that it would suggest that all time exists in Reality and doesn't cease to exist. Why then do we feel ourselves move forwards through time; are there other versions of ourselves at every moment of time? What becomes of causation and free will if the past and future exist as truly as the present?

I don't think it is necessarily true that free will is incorrect if all time exists, but I don't know enough about the philosophy of time to talk much about it.

No one has addressed this one simple fact. God has a plan for us. If God has a plan, that means He is not just standing back as we create history. If God did not have power over our actions, then His plans would be absolutely worthless.

If God is the puppet master then it would seem to make a lives pointless and make God evil.

If the time traveler returns to the present, informs Pete what his future A/B choice will be and then Pete then makes a contrary choice, what does that do to the time traveler's knowledge?

This assumes this is all possible. If the future is the final unchangeable future then if the time traveller tells Pete what he sees then the final future is the result of what happens after Pete is total. If the time traveller doesn't tell Pete then what the time traveller sees will be different. Strangely this would mean that what the time traveller sees depends upon a decision he doesn't believe he has made yet, but actually has in history.

Of course time might not work like that. It appears this whole thread is pointless unless at least two people have a good philosophy of time.